The concept of the Christian God doesn’t make sense to me.

[Presbyterian Continuist]

God didn't tell me any prophecies to convey but rather to shut up and listen .

I must have missed your point. I presumed that you were not going to add any input because you felt that he was not going to listen and to take heed of anything you say.

My view was that I gave my opinion in spite of whether he was going to listen or not, because Ezekiel was told that if he did not tell the people what God was warning and they suffered consequences, then their blood would be on his hands; but if he told them and they did not listen and suffered the consequences then their blood would be on their own hands and not his. This is why I give my opinion to those who identify themselves as atheists, because having told them, their blood is not on my hands, which would have been the case if I knew what God wanted to say to them and I neglected to tell them.

So it doesn't matter to me whether they take my advice or not. That is their choice. But it does matter that I tell them what I know, and then I have done my duty toward them and to God in the matter.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I think it all is really above us but we must make up our theories to satisfy ourselves. We are not comfortable with too much mystery.

It is not a matter of making up theories to satisfy ourselves. It is a matter of reading the Bible to know the will of God, because there is no other way of knowing it. This is because the Bible is God's only communication with mankind to show His will. If we want to know the will of God, read the Bible. If we want to do the will of God, do the Bible. That is the bottom line, and the only way. All else is just the wisdom of man which doesn't cut the mustard.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I would ask him where was he when I spent all of those years searching for him. For him to remain hidden all of that time then to come out of hiding and present himself in a way that I can recognize only after it is too late, I believe it would be unfair to judge me harshly because of it.

As I said, you were searching for Him on your own terms. I think your attitude is that you were under the misconception that you deserved to have God reveal Himself to you, and that it was your right that He should. The bottom line is that He doesn't have to. He would be totally righteous if He never revealed Himself to you and allowed you to go to Judgment without a Saviour to intercede for you.

I have given you what I know. I have fulfilled my responsibility to you. It is up to you what you do with what I and others have told you concerning how to come to Christ and be truly converted to Him. Any consequences either way will depend totally on your attitude to Christ. When the day comes when you stand before Christ to give an account of what has been told to you, by your parents, Christian friends, and your friends on CF, you will be standing alone.

 

[timothyu]

This is symbolic because Jesus is the eternal Passover lamb who was to be killed for the sin of mankind.

Did He willingly die to show man's will is no match for God's will?

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

It is not a matter of making up theories to satisfy ourselves. It is a matter of reading the Bible to know the will of God, because there is no other way of knowing it. This is because the Bible is God's only communication with mankind to show His will. If we want to know the will of God, read the Bible. If we want to do the will of God, do the Bible. That is the bottom line, and the only way. All else is just the wisdom of man which doesn't cut the mustard.

I have been reading the Bible for over 50 years. But even the Bible needs interpretation.

 

[Ken-1122]

This shows that God has no grandchildren. So, your parents's faith could not be transferred to you. All they could have done was to teach you the ways of God and how to have a right attitude to Christ. But this would remain intellectual knowledge until the Holy Spirit did the work of conversion in you.

You cannot come to Christ by yourself. This is why all your efforts have been in vain. You were trying to come to God on your own terms and in your own way. What you missed is that the first step in coming to Christ is that you need to know and acknowledge that you are a totally depraved and hopeless sinner, deserving of hell. You do not deserve to have God save you, and there is nothing you can do of yourself to change God's mind about you. All you have gained through your parents' teaching is that you are a hopeless sinner with a Christian education.


No surprises there!


You may have left "churchianity" but not Christianity, because you were never truly Christian in the first place. All you had was the Christian religion, giving lip service but knowing that there was nothing more inside of you. I think that you were less of an hypocrite for leaving it than remaining in it playing a role that was not really in your heart of hearts.


I don't believe that you are a true atheist, and that you do believe in God, although on an intellectual basis. But true conversion to Christ is much more than this. It is a total transformation involving a new heart and spirit, and it is something that only God Himself, through the agency of the Holy Spirit, can do in you. It is not automatic. It has to be earnestly sought for with all your heart. It is not going to a church, walking the walk and talking the talk and pretending that you are a Christian. It is a total change of heart and spirit. The problem for you is that there is nothing you can do to achieve it. It is by the unmerited grace and mercy of God and His decision alone which will make the difference between whether He decides to transform you or leave you to face the judgment without Christ.

If there is nothing I can do to achieve it, and God neglects to transform me, do you think it would be fair for him to judge me harshly since it's all up to him?

There are people who may tell you that all you have to do is to choose Christ and you will be automatically saved. I am not one of them. You have tried choosing Christ at a certain level, but you have known that something was missing and that just having religion and going to a church did not satisfy that feeling deep down in your heart that you were play acting and were not experiencing the real thing.

I spent two years in a Pentecostal church like that, and I told God that there was something missing. I knew all the religious stuff, but I did not know God on a personal level, and I didn't know how to get there. But I was determined to find out, and when I got to the point of absolute desperation I told God that I had to know Him personally or that I was going to give the whole thing away and live my life without religion at all.


Having a right world view is dependent on knowing God on a personal level. You have to "meet" Him. I can't tell you how to do that because it is something that God has to do.

All I know is that I got out into the middle of a golf course one light, looked up at the stars and told God that I know He is within earshot of my voice wherever He is and I have come out to introduce myself to Him and would not be satisfied until I met Him personally. The next thing I knew was that I was all lit up inside like Times Square, and I just knew beyond doubt that God was real and He was right there with me. I would not have been surprised if Jesus had walked out from behind one of the trees and said, "Hi!" That was 51 years ago, and through all the ups and downs of my life since then, that reality has never left me.

When I got back among my Christian friends, they said that they knew something had changed in me. The Bible became a new book to me, and I started to see things in it that I have never seen before. Also, I started to hear God's voice in my thoughts, and it was a definite, characteristic voice among my own thoughts that I had never heard before. It was not an audible voice or a voice in my head. It was like my own thoughts but different in some way that I was able to recognise. This is in line with the Scripture, "My sheep hear my voice; they know Me and follow Me. They will not recognise the voice of a stranger and will not follow him."

I can't tell you how to meet God personally. You can't walk my journey. You have to seek Him for yourself. The Scripture says, "If you seek for Me with all your heart, you will find Me." God waited until I turned away from trying to seek Him through religion, and went with all my heart to Him directly. He told me that He was waiting all this time for me to do that, and that He responded when He saw that I was coming to Him with all my heart.

I went and read the biographies of all the men and women of God who were successful in their ministries and who won many for Christ. The common thread I saw was that that when they first came to Christ, they got alone with Him and sought him with all their hearts and would not give up until they met Him personally. Read John Bunyan's "Grace Abounding To the Chief of Sinners" to get an appreciation of the long journey he made until he received total assurance of the presence of God with him on a personal basis. One man went into his bedroom and would not come out until He had met God on a personal level. That was the level of his determination, and he was not disappointed. After several hours, he was totally transformed by the Holy Spirit and knew that God was totally real and came and fellowshiped with him on a personal level.

Thanks for sharing that with me.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Did He willingly die to show man's will is no match for God's will?

It seems that you are not fully conversant with the gospel of Christ, nor of the elements of God's plan for salvation.

The truth is that man's will is depraved and totally opposed to God. In fact, man in his natural state is in open rebellion against God. So there is absolutely no comparison or harmony between man's will and God's.

So that is not the reason why Christ went to the cross and willingly gave up His life for the salvation of those who had and will accept Him as Saviour.

If you don't really understand the gospel of Christ 101 which includes why He came to earth as a man and then died on the cross, then I can't see how you have the spiritual understanding to know how to be converted to Christ. You can't really believe a gospel that you don't know, and believing the gospel of Christ is an essential prerequisite for salvation.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I have been reading the Bible for over 50 years. But even the Bible needs interpretation.

Reading the Bible doesn't save anyone. Even the demons know the Bible and that every word in it is absolutely true. But they know they will never be saved from Hell and they tremble because of it. There will be many Bible readers in hell one day, and they will be there before they never actually put into practice the things they read.

As far as interpretation goes, the Bible is abundantly clear in its information about how one needs to be converted to Christ and therefore be saved. The ones who are unable or unwilling to accept that Christ is the only way to be saved are the ones who say the Bible must be interpreted in a different way to what it actually says.

 

[timothyu]

It seems that you are not fully conversant with the gospel of Christ, nor of the elements of God's plan for salvation.

The Gospel of the Kingdom (Jesus' Gospel) clearly states the division is not between mankind but between mankind and the Kingdom. Since the Garden man has put our will before the will of God and we are given countless examples in scripture and daily life of the failed results of doing so. Man was even arrogant enough to think that eliminating Jesus would eliminate the threat of the Kingdom usurping man's power within the world. His resurrection proved them wrong. He was born to die for that purpose and show once and for all no one can out will God. Now... what would the Adversary do? Admit defeat or go on to influence a religion that became capable of remaining in partnership with the world of man and continue misleading the world to think we can build the Kingdom in earth? Well... it did. So the division remains between world of man and Kingdom, even within the religion.

God's plan for salvation has always depended on repentance/change and allegiance to His side, not man's. Siding with Christianity is no different than siding with any government of man. The only governance that matters is the Kingdom of God.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

If there is nothing I can do to achieve it, and God neglects to transform me, do you think it would be fair for him to judge me harshly since it's all up to him?

Quite fair. The natural man is in total rebellion against God, and therefore it is right that open rebellion deserves a consequence. We do not say a judge is unfair who sentences a defendant who has rebelled against the law and the police who attempt to enforce it. So, why would we accuse God of being unfair when He hides Himself from those who are in open rebellion against Him?

Also, God has clearly set out the way of salvation and the procedural steps to achieve it. But the gate to salvation is very narrow and that is why few actually find it. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life, and no person comes to the Father except by Me." Therefore, a person has to cease his own efforts to achieve righteousness, and put their whole faith and trust in Christ. There is no other way, and that is why many refuse to take it, unless God gives them the saving faith to believe on and trust Christ for their salvation.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

The Gospel of the Kingdom (Jesus' Gospel) clearly states the division is not between mankind but between mankind and the Kingdom. Since the Garden man has put our will before the will of God and we are given countless examples in scripture and daily life of the failed results of doing so. Man was even arrogant enough to think that eliminating Jesus would eliminate the threat of the Kingdom usurping man's power within the world. His resurrection proved them wrong. He was born to die for that purpose and show one and for all no one can out will God. Now... what would the Adversary do? Admit defeat or go on to influence a religion that became capable of remaining in partnership with the world of man? Well... it did. So the division remains, even within the religion.

God's plan for salvation has always depended on repentance/change and allegiance to His side, not man's. Siding with Christianity is no different than siding with any government of man. The only governance that matters is the Kingdom of God.

That's not the gospel of Christ at all. The kernel of the gospel is:
"By grace are we saved through faith, and not of ourselves, but it is the gift of God; not of works lest any person should boast in them."

 

[timothyu]

That's not the gospel of Christ at all.

It is the Gospel of Jesus, but not of Gentile world loving Christianity.

Matthew 24: 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Mark 1: 14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, 15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

etc... no mention of a revised shortened gospel.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

This thread reminds me of something else that doesn't make sense to me. That is how so many Christians will tell you that your faith or understanding or belief is not good enough for salvation because it is not identical to theirs.

 

[Ken-1122]

Thank you for sharing parts of your story. I, too, was raised in a Christian household. I'm sure each of our stories is precious to God.

Christians usually ask skeptics to read the Bible. You say this would be the worst possible advice. Is it bec you were reading OT?

Mostly. But there were a few things in the New Testament that gave me concern as well. I remember wondering why Jesus never wrote anything down. I believe it was Mark Twain who said “a foolish mans account of a wise mans words are never accurate; because he has to translate what he hears into something he can actually understand” So we have God’s son coming to Earth, he teaches and preaches for 30+ years but because he doesn’t write anything down, we have to depend on foolish men’s account of this wise and words and wondering if it was accurate. Then when I got to know people of other religions learning that some of the foolish men’s account isn’t from the Christian perspective but of other religions where Jesus does not claimed to be God’s son nor was he crucified.

Then there were things like when Jesus prayed in the Garden of Gethesemane and detailed accounts are given of his praying and I wondered, who witnessed this? His disciples were asleep! Or when the Pharisee came to Jesus alone in the middle of the night, who witnessed these events in order to get someone to write about it? Or in the Corinthians where it says flesh and bone will not enter the kingdom of heaven, so you would think after Jesus died, he would leave his earthly body behind because his flesh and bone (earthly body) can’t go to heaven right? But according to the bible it did.

Most of my issues with the OT are what I would consider immoral issues and unrealistic issues, and most of my issues with the NT are probably contradictions and unrealistic issues.

Would you mind sharing your opinion about the Bible and what you found to be offensive?

I believe men of war will worship a God of war; men of peace will worship a God of peace. I believe men like Moses, Saul, and others were men of war and when they made up a God, it was a God of war; a God that shared their values. I believe Jesus was a (God) man of peace, and when peaceful men of that day wanted a God that shared their values, Jesus was it. That’s why I see a contradiction between the claims of Yahweh and Jesus even though they are supposed to be one and the same. Like how Yahweh instructs how to treat your enemies in Numbers 31:17-18 vs how Jesus instructs how to treat your enemies in Matthew 5:39. What I find offensive in the OT is the actions of those men of war. I don’t believe they were receiving divine instructions, I believe they were claiming divine instructions as an excuse to do what they wanted to do. I remember an old church mother once told me; when your God hates the exact same people that you hate, that’s when you know your God was created in YOUR image, and not you in his. I believe those men of war were creating a God in their image.

When you prayed to God to save you, what made you think you weren't already saved?

The church I went to taught that you will know it when you get saved. I was only going by what I was taught.

Were you in a very fundamentalist denomination?

I went to a Church of God in Christ (COGIC)

Why do you think you're not saved now?

I no longer believe in God

What is the definition of salvation?

Different people will have a different interpretation of what Salvation means. In the Church I went to, salvation was deliverance from sin and given the Holy Spirit as a guide.

Sorry for all the questions. I'm interested in your opinion and, of course, you don't need to explain anything that you don't want to. If you so choose you can send me a private message or respond in this thread.

No problem, I don’t mind answering questions.

 

[Andrewn]

This is why I give my opinion to those who identify themselves as atheists, because having told them, their blood is not on my hands, which would have been the case if I knew what God wanted to say to them and I neglected to tell them. So it doesn't matter to me whether they take my advice or not. That is their choice.

You know how God gave apostles, prophets, evangelists, shepherds, and teachers to build up the body of Christ. You and I may have different gifts. This is how God intended it. Pray that everyone would be able to present the Gospel according to his gift bec all gifts are essential for the Body.

 

[Andrewn]

I remember wondering why Jesus never wrote anything down. I believe it was Mark Twain who said “a foolish mans account of a wise mans words are never accurate; because he has to translate what he hears into something he can actually understand” So we have God’s son coming to Earth, he teaches and preaches for 30+ years but because he doesn’t write anything down, we have to depend on foolish men’s account of this wise and words and wondering if it was accurate. Then when I got to know people of other religions learning that some of the foolish men’s account isn’t from the Christian perspective but of other religions where Jesus does not claimed to be God’s son nor was he crucified.

2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is God breathed and is useful for teaching, for rebuking, for correcting, and for training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be complete, well equipped for every good work.

It sounds like you might have been exposed to Islam bec your claims are similar to their's. But we believe the Holy Bible God-breathed into the writers, just like God's breath made us living beings in the beginning (Gen 2:7). God is capable of preserving His teaching. And it's quite possible that Jesus wrote some of his teaching. As far as crucifixion is concerned, the evidence of its historicity is overwhelming.

Then there were things like when Jesus prayed in the Garden of Gethesemane and detailed accounts are given of his praying and I wondered, who witnessed this? His disciples were asleep! Or when the Pharisee came to Jesus alone in the middle of the night, who witnessed these events in order to get someone to write about it? Or in the Corinthians where it says flesh and bone will not enter the kingdom of heaven, so you would think after Jesus died, he would leave his earthly body behind because his flesh and bone (earthly body) can’t go to heaven right? But according to the bible it did.

There are a lot of things in the Gospels that the Apostles didn't witness. Obviously, Jesus or Mary told them these things. As far as the resurrection is concerned, we know that the Lord's flesh and bone were not left in the tomb but changed into a glorified / body, just like our bodies after the general resurrection.

 

[Andrewn]

Most of my issues with the OT are what I would consider immoral issues and unrealistic issues. . . . I believe men of war will worship a God of war; men of peace will worship a God of peace. I believe men like Moses, Saul, and others were men of war and when they made up a God, it was a God of war; a God that shared their values. . . . I see a contradiction between the claims of Yahweh and Jesus even though they are supposed to be one and the same.

God of the OT is frequently described in the Psalms as loving, kind, faithful, just, compassionate, etc. He is the same God of the NT. I googled "OT God vs NT God" and found useful articles. God planned that Jesus would be born from the tribe of Judah and He had to preserve that tribe through history, sometimes at the expense of its enemies.

What I find offensive in the OT is the actions of those men of war. I don’t believe they were receiving divine instructions, I believe they were claiming divine instructions as an excuse to do what they wanted to do. I remember an old church mother once told me; when your God hates the exact same people that you hate, that’s when you know your God was created in YOUR image, and not you in his. I believe those men of war were creating a God in their image.

I love this. It's very wise. I have to agree that verses verses like those you quoted from Numbers represent a real difficulty. All I can say is that God wanted to preserve the tribe of Judah. Christians battled with this issue since the beginning. Even today, there are the Churches of Christ which believe only in the NT. Perhaps other members can chime in.

 

[Andrewn]

The church I went to taught that you will know it when you get saved. I was only going by what I was taught. . . . I went to a Church of God in Christ (COGIC). . . . Different people will have a different interpretation of what Salvation means. In the Church I went to, salvation was deliverance from sin and given the Holy Spirit as a guide.

This seems like a very Fundamentalist church. The Apostle Paul wrote:

Rom 8:1 So now there isn’t any condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

It's simple. Eternal life is free. To be "in Christ Jesus" is a mindset or an attitude of the mind that He is God and Savior: in God we live, move, and exist (Act 17:28). There is no requirement to believe in convoluted theology. There is no requirement for believing every word in the OT. In Christian living, the Holy Spirit is our helper and guide. Deliverance from sin is a gradual continuous process by the operation of the Holy Spirit.

I no longer believe in God. . . . No problem, I don’t mind answering questions.

You have a safe and loving space in these Forums and I enjoy listening. Do you have time to attend a home Bible study? Faith comes from listening, but it’s listening by means of Christ’s message (Rom 10:17). You don't believe in God, but He believes in you. He created us and loves us and wants all of us to be saved. When I look at the lake and the trees and every blade of grass, when I look at how connected each cell and each organ in us, it's hard for me to say that things evolved on their own. I apologize for talking too much.

 

[Hawkins]

Though unasked for, I can state a few things that puzzle me. God creates us anyway s/he desires and yet we all have the tendency to abuse our free will. And the only way to make that right is for God to become human and die a horrible death for us. It doesn't make much sense to me.

It doesn't work that way. God is to build an eternity called Heaven. The analogy is that you are going to build a huge mansion then invite all your friends and relatives to live. You thus need to design rules for them to follow, such that they won't be able to shout at night or to train your kids up to be drug dealers and criminals.

Given that God is sin-incompatible, His rules thus are expected to be strict. Law was first given to angels, by the work of freewill the book of Revelation says that there will be 1/3 angels fall into the hands of Satan. When this same Law applied, due to the different factors, no human can survive the Final Judgment. Humans thus need to be saved alternatively. In order for humans to be judged differently, a huge price is paid through Jesus Christ as a justification.

OT is above how God ensures the survival of the Jews and trains them up to be loyal messengers to bring forward God's truth to save today's humans. It's like planting a weak seedling till it grows strong. NT is for humans enjoy its fruits.

Humans are saved through a covenant between God and men, which says that men need to be saved by faith. Both sides need to abide by this covenant such that God won't show up to everyone or else no man is savable. However if God doesn't show up at all, men will never know both the existence of God and the existence of such a covenant of salvation. The only way which works is for God to show up to His chosen witnesses and for them to write down their testimonies (thus the Bible) for the rest of human kind to believe with faith.

When you watch CNN news, who wrote the stories? It's not those involved in an incident but those testimonies from eyewitnesses accounts written through the hands of the professional reporters/journalists. This is the process of human witnessing for a truth to convey. Jesus/God doesn't need to write anything in this process. It's the witnesses accounts which shall work.

What humans being brainwashed (by Satan somehow) is the believe of evidence, that's why the ask for God's showing up. However in reality humans don't read facts from direct evidence. They read facts mostly from testimonies. Imagine before the invention of video/audio recording, humans read facts mostly from books and newspaper, they are human writings on a piece of paper without evidence or whatsoever. Even CNN news with videos are actually an advanced form of testimonies. Videos made them more credible, but still videos can be faked both in contents and on dates they are made. You need faith in CNN in order for the news broadcast to work.

Faith is thus always needed in terms of convey a truth among humans. If you think that evidence is needed, you are brainwashed. If you don't think so then please list a fact which you acquired by direct evidence (what you can list is limited even if you can).

In a nutshell, humans mostly acquire facts from testimonies and God is the only God conveyed in the history of Israel, thus in the form of testimonies.

 

[Andrewn]

I really appreciate John Duns Scotus' theory that's explained in this article: At-One-Ment, Not Atonement Sunday, January 21, 2018 Fr. Richard Rohr, OFM

At-One-ment begins to make more sense for me.

I think this is the theory usually referred to as "Recapitulation."

Recapitulation theory of atonement - Wikipedia

It is my favorite theory and is the main theory that St Athanasius of Alexandria advocated in his famous book "On the Trinity." Too bad most people learn Penal Substitution as if it were the standard of faith required for salvation.