The concept of the Christian God doesn’t make sense to me.

[timothyu]

Ken-1122 said: ↑
The concept of the Christian God doesn’t make sense to me.

timothyu said: ↑
What concept is that, he asked out of curiosity?

Ken-1122 said: ↑
I would like to explain why, but I'm afraid it might take things off topic and get my hand slapped by the moderators for doing that. How about if you start another thread and I will be more than happy to explain why. Agree?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Ken-1122 said: ↑
The concept of the Christian God doesn’t make sense to me.

timothyu said: ↑
What concept is that, he asked out of curiosity?

Ken-1122 said: ↑
I would like to explain why, but I'm afraid it might take things off topic and get my hand slapped by the moderators for doing that. How about if you start another thread and I will be more than happy to explain why. Agree?

What is it about the Christian God as represented by Jesus that gives him difficulty?

Because I am asking the question and inviting Ken-1122 to answer, there is no possibility that his answer will give offence to anyone.

 

[timothyu]

Because I am asking the question and inviting Ken-1122 to answer, there is no possibility that his answer will give offence to anyone.

He asked for this thread to be made and has been informed so I assume he will answer eventually.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

He asked for this thread to be made and has been informed so I assume he will answer eventually.

I'm also happy to give my opinion if it is going to be helpful.

 

[timothyu]

I'm also happy to give my opinion if it is going to be helpful.

I'm assuming that was his wish yes.

 

[paul1149]

Paging him might help. @Ken-1122

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Though unasked for, I can state a few things that puzzle me. God creates us anyway s/he desires and yet we all have the tendency to abuse our free will. And the only way to make that right is for God to become human and die a horrible death for us. It doesn't make much sense to me.

 

[timothyu]

Though unasked for, I can state a few things that puzzle me. God creates us anyway s/he desires and yet we all have the tendency to abuse our free will. And the only way to make that right is for God to become human and die a horrible death for us. It doesn't make much sense to me.

This is but a step along the way. Is it not better for us to learn from our mistakes and those that do and come to understand how God's will beats anything we can come up with, can then move onto the next level?
Even children must test the teachings of their parents in order to appreciate their wisdom. Those who fail to learn have their only reward and quite often it is punishment down the road. Those who refuse to even test, are the equivalent of a tree stump and hardly useful in a future existence of free will.

 

[Greengardener]

Part of it has begun to make more sense, and it has to do with the real relationship God says He wants to have with us. In order to have us truly turn to Him, God had to make us capable of turning away from Him. He laid out clearly to us that His way was best, and then He stepped back to see what we'd do with this adventure. So why would we be punished for going our own ways, you might ask? Because our own ways don't work. We don't actually need God's destruction, we can destroy our lives, our communities, and our planet all by ourselves. But we can get so nasty that God has to throw us out just so the rest of the world has a chance at forestalling destruction by avoiding our evil influence. Israel sacrificed their own children, they became that corrupt. They were meant for a light to the other nations, that is, other than the ones that were already so corrupt that God was destroying them. In at least one place in Jeremiah, it was compared to believing lies or believing God, and they wanted to believe lies. Not only did God repeatedly send the prophets to tell the nations to repent, He sent His Son for our atonement. Yet with all that, many will simply not see how much love God offers to us and turn to Him.

 

[Ken-1122]

Ken-1122 said: ↑
The concept of the Christian God doesn’t make sense to me.

timothyu said: ↑
What concept is that, he asked out of curiosity?

Ken-1122 said: ↑
I would like to explain why, but I'm afraid it might take things off topic and get my hand slapped by the moderators for doing that. How about if you start another thread and I will be more than happy to explain why. Agree?

I will list a few of the reasons The Christian religion doesn't make sense to me.

*The story of Adam and Eve
If I were to build a play pen for my 2 children with plenty of toys, then I put a loaded gun in the play pen amongst the toys but told my children not to play with the gun, would you consider me a responsible parent?
Supposed I had an enemy and I see this enemy approach my children with the gun and I do nothing; I then see my enemy cajole my children into playing with the gun, still I do nothing, at first my children refuse via my instructions but eventually this mature adult enemy of mine cajoles my naive children into playing Russian rullet with this gun and I do nothing but watch them die.
For me to take the attitude that they deserved to die because they disobeyed me I believe is atrocious! Yet that is the attitude I am supposed to take when Satan cajoled/tempted Adam and Eve into eating the fruit.

*Often God's behavior doesn't seem wise or make sense
The story of Job for example:
Satan approaches God with a challenge claiming he can turn Job against him if given the opportunity. Now Satan knows God knows everything, and he also knows God only tells the truth, so common sense tells you all God has to do is tell Satan that he is unable to turn Job against him even if he were given this opportunity and Satan will know that is the truth and the conversation would be over; right? But instead God accepts this challenge which results in the pain and suffering of an innocent man and the death of Job's children. Now I realize he was able to have more children but the damage was already done! Children are not like cattle, you don't fix it by having more children; I believe this was wrong and unjust.

*The slaughter of innocent children
It amazes me how people can protest abortion clinics because it kills unborn children then go home and read in the bible about the slaughter of innocent children with God's blessing and think nothing of it.

When Moses went to Egypt to free the "Children of Israel" The first problem I have with this is God chose to "harden Pharaoh's heart" basically taking away his free-will and making him more stubborn than he normally would have been. Now why would he do this? Abraham Lincoln asked
"have I not annihilated my enemies when I've made them my friends?"
Supposed God were to soften Pharaoh's heart and caused him to reject the false God's he worshipped and worship the God of Moses: The entire country of Egypt would have been introduced to this God and everything would have been on the positive tip! But instead, everything stayed on the negative and Moses and Pharaoh were sorta like 2 school kids playing "my daddy is tougher than your daddy" which resulted in the hardship of innocent Egyptians and the death of the Egyptians first born children.
Why would a God that can create the Universe and all that exist in 6 days need to kill innocent children to make a point? He could have put all the Egyptians in a deep sleep and have Moses lead the Children of Israel out into the desert while everyone else slept: Those children did not deserve to die!

Other examples are of surrendering armies slaughtered during war, (amalekites and midianites) the children and babies killed and virgin women saved for rape; everything I know about right and wrong tells me this is wrong, and as a Christian you are required to believe everything the God of the Old Testament does is good.

Now I know that was the Old Testament and things are different in the New, (I do believe Jesus was morally superior to the God Christians claim him the Son of) but in order to be Christian, you have to accept the Old Testament God as just and that is something I cannot do.

Ken

 

[mkgal1]

Though unasked for, I can state a few things that puzzle me. God creates us anyway s/he desires and yet we all have the tendency to abuse our free will. And the only way to make that right is for God to become human and die a horrible death for us. It doesn't make much sense to me.

I was surprised to learn - only a few years ago, after being in churches for more than 50 years - that all we really have are theories as to the "why" of Jesus' death on the cross. I really appreciate John Duns Scotus' theory that's explained in this article:

From article:

At-One-Ment, Not Atonement
Sunday, January 21, 2018
Fr. Richard Rohr, OFM
Jesus of Nazareth: Week 2
At-One-Ment, Not Atonement
Sunday, January 21, 2018

The common reading of the Bible is that Jesus “died for our sins”—either to pay a debt to the devil (common in the first millennium) or to pay a debt to God (proposed by Anselm of Canterbury, 1033-1109). Franciscan philosopher and theologian John Duns Scotus (1266-1308) agreed with neither of these understandings.

Duns Scotus was not guided by the Temple language of debt, atonement, or blood sacrifice (understandably used by the Gospel writers and by Paul). He was inspired by the cosmic hymns in the first chapters of Colossians and Ephesians and the Prologue to John’s Gospel (1:1-18) and gave a theological and philosophical base to St. Francis’ deep intuitions of God’s love. While the Church has not rejected the Franciscan position, it has been a minority view.At-One-Ment, Not Atonement — Center for Action and Contemplation​

 

[timothyu]

If I were to build a play pen for my 2 children with plenty of toys, then I put a loaded gun in the play pen amongst the toys but told my children not to play with the gun, would you consider me a responsible parent?

The creation we can comprehend could not have been made without the knowledge of the tree, our world is made of opposites.

Satan approaches God with a challenge claiming he can turn Job against him if given the opportunity.

Don't forget according to Hebrew lore that God created the Tempter for the very purpose of tempting mankind to turn against the will of God. God wanted only those of allegiance. I don't believe the flesh has ever mattered to God, but instead what He put of Himself within us. This is a proving ground. Besides everything here is food for something else.

*The slaughter of innocent children

Again flesh seems low on concerns if everything is food for something else. There is more to this than flesh.

When Moses went to Egypt to free the "Children of Israel"

Good points but we wouldn't have the 10 commandments to watch every Easter. Besides, the Hebrew people were just as hard headed and it carried on to even rejecting Jesus because they, like Pharaoh, though physical might was power.

Other examples are of surrendering armies slaughtered during war,

It's kind of like when a few become infected the whole herd needs to be put down. The second round of disease could be even greater.

But yes the OT was about hard lessons as the people were still subject to the world of their own making revolving around good and evil. Phase two had not yet begun where after all these hard lessons, people might finally understand the wisdom of God's will over the self serving ways of mankind and stick to their choices, now understanding why one was better than the other. It's a long process but infinity has time and as said flesh is not a priority to the end result.

 

[Ken-1122]

The creation we can comprehend could not have been made without the knowledge of the tree, our world is made of opposites.

How do you know? What do you base this on?

Don't forget according to Hebrew lore that God created the Tempter for the very purpose of tempting mankind to turn against the will of God. God wanted only those of allegiance.

If all have sinned and fallen short, that would mean 100% of mankind has turned against God at one time or another, 0% allegiance. Why would he want this?

I don't believe the flesh has ever mattered to God, but instead what He put of Himself within us. This is a proving ground. Besides everything here is food for something else.

Proving ground?l If God knows everything, what is there for him to prove?

Again flesh seems low on concerns if everything is food for something else. There is more to this than flesh.

It goes against my morals to consider dead children as low on concerns and food for something else.

Good points but we wouldn't have the 10 commandments to watch every Easter. Besides, the Hebrew people were just as hard headed and it carried on to even rejecting Jesus because they, like Pharaoh, though physical might was power.

Again; if God could do anything, he could have changed all of that.

It's kind of like when a few become infected the whole herd needs to be put down. The second round of disease could be even greater.

But yes the OT was about hard lessons as the people were still subject to the world of their own making revolving around good and evil. Phase two had not yet begun where after all these hard lessons, people might finally understand the wisdom of God's will over the self serving ways of mankind and stick to their choices, now understanding why one was better than the other. It's a long process but infinity has time and as said flesh is not a priority to the end result.

Why does there have to be a phase 1 and a phase 2? With unlimited power and ability, why not just do it right the first time? This doesn’t make sense to me.

 

[muichimotsu]

This is but a step along the way. Is it not better for us to learn from our mistakes and those that do and come to understand how God's will beats anything we can come up with, can then move onto the next level?
Even children must test the teachings of their parents in order to appreciate their wisdom. Those who fail to learn have their only reward and quite often it is punishment down the road. Those who refuse to even test, are the equivalent of a tree stump and hardly useful in a future existence of free will.

That seems to sell humans vastly short from the start, which isn't optimistic or positive in the slightest, just making us lesser by nature and trying to solve that issue with something that fulfills particular needs without being substantiated itself

 

[muichimotsu]

The creation we can comprehend could not have been made without the knowledge of the tree, our world is made of opposites.


Don't forget according to Hebrew lore that God created the Tempter for the very purpose of tempting mankind to turn against the will of God. God wanted only those of allegiance. I don't believe the flesh has ever mattered to God, but instead what He put of Himself within us. This is a proving ground. Besides everything here is food for something else.


Again flesh seems low on concerns if everything is food for something else. There is more to this than flesh.


Good points but we wouldn't have the 10 commandments to watch every Easter. Besides, the Hebrew people were just as hard headed and it carried on to even rejecting Jesus because they, like Pharaoh, though physical might was power.


It's kind of like when a few become infected the whole herd needs to be put down. The second round of disease could be even greater.

But yes the OT was about hard lessons as the people were still subject to the world of their own making revolving around good and evil. Phase two had not yet begun where after all these hard lessons, people might finally understand the wisdom of God's will over the self serving ways of mankind and stick to their choices, now understanding why one was better than the other. It's a long process but infinity has time and as said flesh is not a priority to the end result.

The problem becomes why the knowledge is bad or does anything that deserves punishment rather than just being something we have to confront as thinking entities that can make such assessments in the first place? It sounds like making up a disease and then presenting the solution after the fact

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Eh, not sure scholars are remotely in agreement on Satan as an antithesis to God, when Job and other areas can be interpreted quite consistently with God's sovereignty not being even challenged, Satan merely fitting into a prosecuting attorney metaphor as challenging humans without being a temptation in himself, because I'm pretty sure Judaism wasn't of that opinion until encountering Zoroastrianism, with the dualistic ideas of an evil and good God clashing with each other. If Satan is merely an angel God has tasked with an unpopular job of testing humanity in regards to dealing with unpleasantness and the like rather than an independent agent God has to keep tabs on, it makes God seem far more competent than if it made angels knowing that some would fall (though that also applies in God making humanity knowing they would have to be kicked out of Eden, so..)

~~~~

So literally nothing matters in terms of the temporal world? Any suffering of innocents or God turning a blind eye to slavery are just a bump in the road and will be fixed in the end? That seems morally deficient and bankrupt to a high degree in that you aren't actually concerned with suffering in any meaningful sense

~~~~

God didn't exactly make it that clear about an alternative when God literally used plagues to show its power and turn people to its side, the general Hebrew angle is henotheism, God just the superior god amongst other gods, rather than being a God that is unique, the other "gods" not really gods

~~~~

Not sure it's remotely fair to compare moral corruption with demonstrable scientific aspects where quarantine is beneficial versus culling (humans are not to be treated like animals in the moral sense, because we have agency, animals have far less in being self aware as humans are)

Infinity logically cannot have time, it has no beginning or end, part of temporality itself. And if the flesh is irrelevant, why did God create humans with flesh at all if the lessons could've been learned without that needless extra step?

 

[Andrewn]

Though unasked for, I can state a few things that puzzle me. God creates us anyway s/he desires and yet we all have the tendency to abuse our free will. And the only way to make that right is for God to become human and die a horrible death for us. It doesn't make much sense to me.

Your profile says you're Catholic. It would help you much to ask your church pastor.

 

[Andrewn]

I will list a few of the reasons The Christian religion doesn't make sense to me.

If I thought you were seeking the truth, I would have attempted to comment. But experience in the other thread convinces me otherwise.

 

[Ken-1122]

If I thought you were seeking the truth, I would have attempted to comment. But experience in the other thread convinces me otherwise.

Like you and everybody else here; I’m convinced I already know the truth concerning God (even though I’ve always been open to the possibility I could be wrong; I’ve been wrong countless times in the past and will be wrong countless times in the future). I didn’t really come here looking for guidance or anything, I just came here because Timothyu invited me to express why I believe the way I do.

 

[Halbhh]

Though unasked for, I can state a few things that puzzle me. God creates us anyway s/he desires and yet we all have the tendency to abuse our free will. And the only way to make that right is for God to become human and die a horrible death for us. It doesn't make much sense to me.

Catholics say this also has some that is 'mystery' in a higher, holy sense, yes? There are some parts though that we can begin to appreciate, some aspects (not necessarily all!). Consider one aspect by example: when Martin Luther King Jr. was campaigning for civil rights for people of other skin colors, he knew towards the end it seems that if he continued he might be killed. (for instance he famously said near the end: "I might not get there with you...") But, even knowing he was putting himself in increasing danger by continuing, he did continue anyway. It was self-sacrificial, for what is right. He showed a faith that the justice he was campaigning for was worth even his temporary mortal life ending sooner. Of course, this is only an aspect, and not the deepest one. And even here, this example from King isn't perfect, but we do have the ultimate perfect example, Christ Himself. So, it does make sense in some ways even in limited human terms, once you get the big picture. But there are deeper parts, which we can only faintly sense at times, and this is why it is also called 'mystery' in a holy sense, because some things are above us. (Isaiah 55 NIV)

 

[Andrewn]

Like you and everybody else here; I’m convinced I already know the truth concerning God (even though I’ve always been open to the possibility I could be wrong;

Excellent. As you can see in my signature, I treasure doubt and am open to new ideas. How did you turn away from all religions? Or were your parents agnostics? Would you then explain your world view?