The Colorado Springs Quandary

rjs330 · Nov 30, 2022

rambot said:
haha! I'll tell you. THE MOST common, and I mean, by fAAR the most common is that all these shooters are male.
Male. There is no moreconsistent data point on all mass killings than that particular demographic.

Like 100% of mass shooting events seems to be a male.

And yet the concept of toxic masculinity gets ridiculed and downplayed.

It has been men who have started the wars in the world. It has been men that have conquered and explored and invented and created. It has been men that have been most of the murderers, abusers and rapists. It has been men that have done most of the building and dreaming and creating cities and businesses. It has been men that created biological weapons, created cures for diseases had incredible scientific breakthroughs and discoveries and medical breakthroughs. It has been men that created porn and also wrote the greatest literary works.

Yes men have this thing within them that drives them to great deeds of war and killing. It also drives them to defeat evil men and have wondrous discoveries.

We need strong masculinity and it should not be discouraged. Evil should never be accepted. Evil should be fought against by good men. Men need to be men and not be condemned because they are. Evil men should be condemned.

Mentally ill men can be very dangerous indeed.

Ana the Ist · Nov 30, 2022

rambot said:
After rereading the OP again, I just don't think it makes any substantive case for the point y'all are arguing. For its case to be successful you have to suspend the reality of self loathing and acts of rebellion. You have to suspend the reality that not all people in a group affirm that group and support it.

Huh?

rambot said:
ABSOLUTELY I have no problems saying this dude may be queer in some way. Having a dad like that and being queer? I honestly can't imagine the amount of self loathing the poor dude suffers from.

Or not.

rambot said:
I mean, do you all HONESTLY believe there are no self hating gays in the world?

No....but this guy didn't say he was gay.

He said he was non-binary.

rambot said:
With all the talk about condemnation that is yelled at them?

Internalised Homophobia - Rainbow Project
Self-loathing among gay people is nothing new. We’re overwhelmed by it | Matthew Todd

Uh huh.

rambot said:
It just continues to speak to the lack of awareness of the gay experience with people who spout the most vitriole and hate against them.

You can talk about gay experience all you want.

This guy is non-binary lol.

rambot said:
And some of you have the gall to say "It's because their gay"

Who said that?

rambot said:
and not because of the feelings of worthlessness you CONSTANTLY tell them they should be feeling? Right leaning Christians constantly message to them they are sinful because of their identity and not their choice, that they are groomers who shouldn't be around kids, who should never speak to children about being gay. You kick those gay children out of your chriatian homes leaving them to fend for themselves on the street.

And y'all say there's something wrong with them because they commit suicide and have more instances of mental health and unhealthy coping strategies like alcoholism and drug dependence? Heavens, it's like the baker getting angry at the egg for not being in the recipe when he forgot to put it in.

Uh....anyway....

You apparently need to educate yourself on sexual orientation and gender.

rjs330 · Nov 30, 2022

Bradskii said:
I've been around the block a few times. And been around a few blocks as well. I've been to many places where I've mixed with people that aren't like me. And I've caught myself on very many occasions thinking something that was an incorrect but automatic reaction. And I had to consciously correct myself. I had to reset as it were. To remind myself that these reactions are inbuilt. That they were there for a reason. That it's not my fault that I have them. I needn't feel guilty. It's only my fault if I act on them unthinkingly.

I don't know your upbringing. I don't know where you live. Maybe you haven't interacted with many different types of people. Maybe you don't read or watch tv or have any interactions with anyone that has a different culture or way of life or look, talk and act differently.

You certainly wont be the first person to deny that you don't have these evolutionary driven automatic responses. But you might, incredibly, be the first person ever not to have them.

I've probably been around the block a few more times than you have.

I've interacted with all kinds of people. Gays, trans, blacks, Hispanics Asians, people from various middle eastern countries, Europeans.

I'm q voracious reader and watch television and movies. I've been to 11 different countries. I've been to 16 different states. Maybe more.

I have think you have barked up the wrong tree. Your elitist condescending attitude has been noted.

rjs330 · Nov 30, 2022

rambot said:
After rereading the OP again, I just don't think it makes any substantive case for the point y'all are arguing. For its case to be successful you have to suspend the reality of self loathing and acts of rebellion. You have to suspend the reality that not all people in a group affirm that group and support it.

ABSOLUTELY I have no problems saying this dude may be queer in some way. Having a dad like that and being queer? I honestly can't imagine the amount of self loathing the poor dude suffers from.

I mean, do you all HONESTLY believe there are no self hating gays in the world?
With all the talk about condemnation that is yelled at them?

Internalised Homophobia - Rainbow Project
Self-loathing among gay people is nothing new. We’re overwhelmed by it | Matthew Todd

It just continues to speak to the lack of awareness of the gay experience with people who spout the most vitriole and hate against them.

And some of you have the gall to say "It's because their gay" and not because of the feelings of worthlessness you CONSTANTLY tell them they should be feeling? Right leaning Christians constantly message to them they are sinful because of their identity and not their choice, that they are groomers who shouldn't be around kids, who should never speak to children about being gay. You kick those gay children out of your chriatian homes leaving them to fend for themselves on the street.

And y'all say there's something wrong with them because they commit suicide and have more instances of mental health and unhealthy coping strategies like alcoholism and drug dependence? Heavens, it's like the baker getting angry at the egg for not being in the recipe when he forgot to put it in.

Your blaming Christians again? You just never give up do you? This dude's parents have shown themselves to be awful people. He says he's non binary, and has shown signs of mental illness and violent tendencies. And you are going to continue to blame people who had nothing to do with this.

Your bias has taken over.

Bradskii · Nov 30, 2022

rjs330 said:
I've probably been around the block a few more times than you have.

I've interacted with all kinds of people. Gays, trans, blacks, Hispanics Asians, people from various middle eastern countries, Europeans.

I'm q voracious reader and watch television and movies. I've been to 11 different countries. I've been to 16 different states. Maybe more.

I have think you have barked up the wrong tree. Your elitist condescending attitude has been noted.

I'm not going to get into a p contest with you (let's just say that I'm just ahead of you on states and you really better skip the countries) but if you have seen a few far away places and mixed with others 'not in your group' (obviously a religious English speaking presumably anglo saxon male) then I'm really at a loss to understand that you don't understand what I've been trying to put across.

And yes, you're right. I did come across as somewhat condescending. I apologise for that.

Ana the Ist · Nov 30, 2022

Bradskii said:
They are unconscious tendencies (as explained). That can result in a conscious bias. And overt racism.

Unconscious tendencies...

Sure we all have automatic pattern seeking thought processes at a subconscious level....otherwise coincidence wouldn't be a thing.

What you don't know, are what patterns people subconsciously believe they see.

Bradskii · Nov 30, 2022

Ana the Ist said:
Unconscious tendencies...

Sure we all have automatic pattern seeking thought processes at a subconscious level....otherwise coincidence wouldn't be a thing.

What you don't know, are what patterns people subconsciously believe they see.

It's nothing to do with pattern recognition. It's in-groups and out-groups. Those with whom you feel comfortable and those who aren't in that group. People who are different, especially when you have limited exposure to them. They are then an unknown quantity, although familiarity can breed acceptance ('some of my best friends...').

Ana the Ist · Nov 30, 2022

GoldenBoy89 said:
I am. I’m assuming their beliefs for a moment to make a point that they aren’t too different from what (I think it was Bradskii?) was saying wrt racism being ingrained.

I think it's a decent analogy....but if you're an atheist why would you believe it?

Ana the Ist · Nov 30, 2022

Bradskii said:
It's nothing to do with pattern recognition.

Oh?

Bradskii said:
It's in-groups and out-groups.

That's pattern recognition.

Bradskii said:
Those with whom you feel comfortable and those who aren't in that group.

Which assumes I have an in group or out group.

Bradskii said:
People who are different,

Different how?

Ana the Ist · Nov 30, 2022

Bradskii said:
Good to know that you realise that it's a problem within society.

Is that what you think it means when someone says race is a social contruct?

Bradskii said:
And how many times have we heard something like the following: 'Racism is an awful scourge in society. But of course, I'm not racist. Haven't a racist bone in my body. In fact, some of my best friends...'

I don't know bur I'm sure you'll tell me....@rambot has a similar post where he protects his Mexican friends from racism.

Bradskii said:
If only we could encourage some introspection.

The tendency towards it is evolutionary.

Pattern recognition is evolutionary.

Racism is a social contruct of the 1700s to explain differences in things like appearance, technology, culture, art, etc.

rjs330 · Nov 30, 2022

Bradskii said:
I'm not going to get into a p contest with you (let's just say that I'm just ahead of you on states and you really better skip the countries) but if you have seen a few far away places and mixed with others 'not in your group' (obviously a religious English speaking presumably anglo saxon male) then I'm really at a loss to understand that you don't understand what I've been trying to put across.

And yes, you're right. I did come across as somewhat condescending. I apologise for that.

Apology accepted.

I fully understand what you are saying. I just disagree with the idea that everyone is racist.

I do agree with the idea that like our groups and are more comfortable with them. The Africans have groups, the American Indians had and have groups. Sports fans have groups. Conservatives and Liberals have groups. That doesn't mean everyone is racist. I fully get that you think everyone is racist. It's simply a leftist ideology and as with most leftist ideologies it is flat wrong.

Aldebaran · Nov 30, 2022

Bradskii said:
If you know something or someone is dangerous from the outset, then obviously you take precautions. But the article wasn't talking about what we know. It was talking about our reactions to someone from outside of what we consider to be 'our group'. Someone we don't know.

Back when these tendencies evolved, your social group was relatively small and, almost by definition, safe. Else you wouldn't be in that group in the first place. If someone obviously from outside your group appeared then he could be harmless or harmful. The best option is to treat him carefully, with a degree of suspicion, until he proves to be friendly. The cost of doing that is zero. The cost of not doing that could be very expensive indeed. Those that didn't think it necessary to take precautions were sometimes removed from the gene pool. Leaving those who thought it wise to do so.

Quick anecdote. A few years back my wife and I were camping with another couple. Late evening, getting dark, miles from anywhere, sitting around the camp fire. Then two young guys appeared, walking towards us a hundred metres away. No indication that they were any danger. But my mate and myself automatically looked around for a weapon. Piece of wood, the axe by the fire. We were automatically on high alert. We both had ancestors who thought it wise.

As it turned out, their car had broken down a couple of miles away and they didn't have phone coverage to call for help. We gave them a beer and a lift to to where they could get coverage.

If we'd been part of a larger group of say 4 wheel drive enthusiasts and were all wearing the same t shirts and these guys turned up, who we didn't know, wearing the same t shirts, then there wouldn't have been the same reaction. Hey, here's 2 guys 'from our group'.

Someone from outside your group appears, however your group is defined at the time, there's an inbuilt reaction. Less in some cases, more in others and it will vary individually. But it's always there.

Sounds good enough. IOW, if you're approached by strangers in the middle of the night in the middle of nowhere, it's good to be prepared in case they are up to no good. Hope for the best, prep for the worst. If it's people you already know, then you already know they're not approaching you for nefarious reasons.

Bradskii · Nov 30, 2022

Ana the Ist said:
Different how?

Is that serious question..? You want to know how people are different from one another?

Bradskii · Nov 30, 2022

Ana the Ist said:
Is that what you think it means when someone says race is a social contruct?

Someone didn't say that. They said 'Racism is a social construct' (It might have actually been you). And as racism is a problem and you say it's constructed within society then it's a problem within society.

Again, I'm glad that you appreciate that the problem exists.

Bradskii · Nov 30, 2022

rjs330 said:
Apology accepted.

I fully understand what you are saying. I just disagree with the idea that everyone is racist.

I do agree with the idea that like our groups and are more comfortable with them. The Africans have groups, the American Indians had and have groups. Sports fans have groups. Conservatives and Liberals have groups. That doesn't mean everyone is racist. I fully get that you think everyone is racist. It's simply a leftist ideology and as with most leftist ideologies it is flat wrong.

Thanks...

But you do understand that there are in-groups and out-groups. Politically, sports-wise, geographically and, as you said, racially (although I dislike the term). It's a given. And it's also a given that we have a tendency to prefer our group as opposed to their group. Does that mean you'll avoid the guy in the bar because he obviously supports the other team and will actively dislike him just because of that? Obviously not (with some exceptions). But that tendency is always there. It's an evolutionary evolved trait.

I am not saying, and have not said, that if you are one 'race' then you automatically are prejudiced against all other races. But we all have within us that tendency to prefer our 'group'. Be it the same team supporters, people from the same area or people from the same ethnic background. And if you ask someone why they prefer their team's supporters then they'll probably say that they have that in common. That they feel an affinity. That they'll be comfortable within that group because of the commonalities.

But ask the same about ethnic differences and you'll get an immediate reaction - 'Hey, I'm not racist and I object to the implication'. If the person does not and purposely will not exhibit any signs of overt racism, then that's a fair call. But that evolutionary tendency to racism (or in group/out group preferences) is still there.

Bradskii · Nov 30, 2022

Aldebaran said:
Sounds good enough. IOW, if you're approached by strangers in the middle of the night in the middle of nowhere, it's good to be prepared in case they are up to no good. Hope for the best, prep for the worst. If it's people you already know, then you already know they're not approaching you for nefarious reasons.

Right. Except that was an extreme example. And the subtleties of that tendency in normal everyday life get lost in the background noise. To the point where it's not obvious. The subconscious still ticks over in the same way. It can do nothing else. And if it's two young guys in the middle of the night in the middle of nowhere then it's easy to see how it works. No-one is going to say that you are biased against young people wandering around camp sites. But imagine if they looked Middle Eastern. Does that change the reason the tendency works? And if it was a bar? During the day?

It still works the same way but to a much lesser extent. You don't obviously look for a weapon for example. But you are biased against them in a very subtle way just because they are different.

rjs330 · Nov 30, 2022

Bradskii said:
Thanks...

But you do understand that there are in-groups and out-groups. Politically, sports-wise, geographically and, as you said, racially (although I dislike the term). It's a given. And it's also a given that we have a tendency to prefer our group as opposed to their group. Does that mean you'll avoid the guy in the bar because he obviously supports the other team and will actively dislike him just because of that? Obviously not (with some exceptions). But that tendency is always there. It's an evolutionary evolved trait.

I am not saying, and have not said, that if you are one 'race' then you automatically are prejudiced against all other races. But we all have within us that tendency to prefer our 'group'. Be it the same team supporters, people from the same area or people from the same ethnic background. And if you ask someone why they prefer their team's supporters then they'll probably say that they have that in common. That they feel an affinity. That they'll be comfortable within that group because of the commonalities.

But ask the same about ethnic differences and you'll get an immediate reaction - 'Hey, I'm not racist and I object to the implication'. If the person does not and purposely will not exhibit any signs of overt racism, then that's a fair call. But that evolutionary tendency to racism (or in group/out group preferences) is still there.

Lol you don't have any evidence that evolution was involved at all. What we do have is simply human preference to be with people that are like them in some fashion. Whether it be by education level, job type, common interests, political affiliation etc.

And that still doesn't mean everyone is racist. Inside or outside.

rjs330 · Nov 30, 2022

Bradskii said:
am not saying, and have not said, that if you are one 'race' then you automatically are prejudiced against all other races.

Dude you pretty much said we all were racist even if not overtly so.

Bradskii said:
It's inbuilt. We all are to a greater or lesser degree. It's subconscious in a lot of people - not overt.

You went on to describe how it's important to recognize that so we can consciously act appropriately so our racist tendencies dont exhibit. If you are actually racist in our subconscious then you are prejudiced in our subconscious. Being racist is being prejudiced. You said we are all racist therefore we are all prejudiced to other races. Unless you are trying to leave yourself an out by saying "all other races.".

Bradskii · Nov 30, 2022

rjs330 said:
Lol you don't have any evidence that evolution was involved at all. What we do have is simply human preference to be with people that are like them in some fashion. Whether it be by education level, job type, common interests, political affiliation etc.

And that still doesn't mean everyone is racist. Inside or outside.

Yes, we have a preference for people within 'our group'. And yes, it's a human preference. An instinct. It's entirely natural as you imply. So the obverse is obviously that to the same extent we don't prefer people who are not in 'our group'. Which is the only point I have been making. But imply that that will naturally and obviously include different ethnic groups and swords are drawn. 'What? You calling me a racist!'

What isn't a given (all of the above most definitely is) is that it's evolutionary driven. But (and I'm not being condescending this time), evolutionary psychology is a subject I have been studying for years. And there is zero doubt in my mind. I've read a lot of what Cosmides and Tooby have written on the matter. Here's a snippet:

'...encoding by race is instead a reversible byproduct of cognitive machinery that evolved to detect coalitional alliances. The results show that subjects encode coalitional affiliations as a normal part of person representation. More importantly, when cues of coalitional affiliation no longer track or correspond to race, subjects markedly reduce the extent to which they categorize others by race, and indeed may cease doing so entirely'. https://www.researchgate.net/public...itional_Computation_and_Social_Categorization

Which matches what I have been saying. That out-group determinations are entirely natural. And that will include racial differences. But, as I said, personal experience can override those tendencies. They are subconscious, we all have them, we all respond to them, but they don't necessarily define our actions.

And Cosmides and Tooby are the leaders in evolutionary psychology, so although it is not explcitly stated, the paper is written on that basis.

Bradskii · Nov 30, 2022

rjs330 said:
Dude you pretty much said we all were racist even if not overtly so.

You went on to describe how it's important to recognize that so we can consciously act appropriately so our racist tendencies dont exhibit. If you are actually racist in our subconscious then you are prejudiced in our subconscious. Being racist is being prejudiced. You said we are all racist therefore we are all prejudiced to other races. Unless you are trying to leave yourself an out by saying "all other races.".

See above.

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