The 'coercive bargain' theory of Christianity.

[Strivax]

Ok, sorry...?

God Bless!

J

That's OK. I would just point out though, that 'sexual immorality' is not an existential threat to humanity. From what I can make out we humans have always had untidy sexualities, and probably always will. Yet, bit by bit, we struggle on through, and even, occasionally, manage to make moral and ethical progress. But this is not the same situation that applies to the hideously inequitable distribution of wealth, and our corruption of the ecosystem. That really is an existential threat, and our very survival as a species depends on the answers we find to the challenges it poses. Or we will all die, starting with the poorest and most vulnerable, but encompassing the rest of us as we use lethal methods to gain and sustain control of scarce resources.

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[Neogaia777]

That's OK. I would just point out though, that 'sexual immorality' is not an existential threat to humanity. From what I can make out we humans have always had untidy sexualities, and probably always will. Yet, bit by bit, we struggle on through, and even, occasionally, manage to make moral and ethical progress. But this is not the same situation that applies to the hideously inequitable distribution of wealth, and our corruption of the ecosystem. That really is an existential threat, and our very survival as a species depends on the answers we find to the challenges it poses. Or we will all die, starting with the poorest and most vulnerable, but encompassing the rest of us as we use lethal methods to gain and sustain control of scarce resources.

Best wishes, Strivax.

All our extreme selfishness and shortsightedness, immaturity, etc, in every area, is a major problem I think.

God Bless!

J

 

[Strivax]

Yes, but I think it does little good to blame selfishness, shortsightedness, etc. Such general problems cannot be solved. What we can do, however, is get specific, and seek to save, say, the Natterjack Toad from extinction, or to raise the income of the poorest from $2 per day to $5 per day. Such goals are well withinn our capacity, imply no moral failing, and, importantly, threaten no-one or their livlihood.

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[Lost Witness]

This is simply untrue. He does not correct us. He only acts after we are dead and there is no end to our time in Hell.

We basically have to guess what he ‘wants’ and take pot luck that we are correct.

He Does Correct His Children. (Those Born Again of the Spirit)
He also Guides his Children on which way they should go.

I find this really strange. I’m an atheist and have never been corrected by God. Does that mean I have been perfect in his eyes?

Unless you have ever truly accepted the LORD Jesus Christ as your Savior and have been Born Again of the Spirit,
It's very unlikely that you ever will experience such a correction.

 

[IoanC]

I agree. It is depresing to see legalism. It seem seems to work; I have fallen for it myself. Paradoxially, unless you repent from such spiritual darkness, one will be unhappy and far from God who cannot be tempted with anything (including our idea of a bargain or the need to be overly serious).

 

[Lost Witness]

Is it though? The UK and the Northern European countries are very sexually liberal and our societies don’t seem to be collapsing.

Compare that to the sexually repressive countries: who’s doing the best?

A countries development or prosperity isn't necessarily a good thing as this 'world' is currently controlled by satan

Sexual immorality is the ONLY thing we're told to FLEE in scripture because it comes from inside of us

"Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body." 1 Corinthians 6:18

 

[Tinker Grey]

Sexual immorality is the ONLY thing we're told to FLEE in scripture because it comes from inside of us

You can't hide from yourself. Wherever you go, there you are.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

The OP is looking at the world from a thoroughly atheistic perspective. Life is full of rewards and incentives, why should we think there are no eternal rewards or incentives for our actions? Why the deliberate attempt to separate right action from God and say an action is good in and of itself? Christianity is not above coercion, no ideology is above coercion.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Is it though? The UK and the Northern European countries are very sexually liberal and our societies don’t seem to be collapsing.

Compare that to the sexually repressive countries: who’s doing the best?

What's the replacement birthrate of the UK And North European countries?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

So, this is about what I call 'the coercive bargain' theory of Christianity. I will say from the outset, it's an idea I thoroughly reject. If you are a parent, you do not demand your children's love because you will only do good to them if they comply, and you will torment them unmercifully if they don't. Similarly, if you love God, and your neighbour, you will do good unto them because you love goodness, and need no other justification. If you need some promise of reward to get you to believe and to do good, what is left is a mere transaction. And if you believe the alternative is eternal torment, goodness is reduced to some petty, tawdry insurance policy against that. And it's counter productive. For who would really love a parent who inflicted their power thus?

Virtue, it is said. is it's own reward. Pursue it, then, for it's own sake.

Best wishes, Strivax.

The parental analogy tends to fall apart because a lot of the doctrines commonly accepted are not relationship friendly.

One such doctrine is eternal torment. Of course, there are other examples, but the idea of a father figure pouring gasoline on a child and setting them on fire, isn't something God would ask us to do as His children.

There are other arguments that poke holes at commonly accepted doctrines - because they refuse to obey what Jesus taught in the gospels, to be like the Father and emulate His behavior. The rub is, God acts like this apparently .. but we can't emulate it because it goes against the teachings of God .. so it causes confusion, thus God didn't author it.

 

[Canuckster]

Hmmmm. The thing I see as really destructive to a society is... the inequitable distribution of the world's wealth.

Translation… The super rich and powerful forcing everyone else in the world to be equally poor

 

[2PhiloVoid]

So, this is about what I call 'the coercive bargain' theory of Christianity. I will say from the outset, it's an idea I thoroughly reject. If you are a parent, you do not demand your children's love because you will only do good to them if they comply, and you will torment them unmercifully if they don't.

...in some strange way, I get the impression that when I was raising my son, I was supposed to have been wearing a straightjacket the whole time.

Similarly, if you love God, and your neighbour, you will do good unto them because you love goodness, and need no other justification. If you need some promise of reward to get you to believe and to do good, what is left is a mere transaction.

Well, there was this little thing called a covenant in the Bible which I thought I had been mentioned therein, but maybe, possibly, all that kind of thing must have been one big misreading on my part and, more than likely, it was the result of a bit of spiced rum, sipped one too many times my myself while reading...and attempting to parent in no man's land.

Yeah, that must be it! It couldn't possibly be otherwise.

And if you believe the alternative is eternal torment, goodness is reduced to some petty, tawdry insurance policy against that. And it's counter productive. For who would really love a parent who inflicted their power thus?

I guess I'll have to think about this in my next lifetime. I've already screwed up in my parenting quite egregiously, apparently, at least that what I make out from what you've asserted here. I guess i should be ashamed.

Virtue, it is said. is it's own reward. Pursue it, then, for it's own sake.

Best wishes, Strivax.

Virtue? In today's world, I think it's safe to say that one man's virtue is another man's complicity with evil. And some people do in fact pursue virtue just for its own sake.

 

[Neutral Observer]

Sexual immorality is what is destructive to a society.

Just when is this collapse of society supposed to take place? Sexual immorality has been around for thousands of years and yet we're still here, chugging along as usual.

From what I can make out we humans have always had untidy sexualities, and probably always will. Yet, bit by bit, we struggle on through, and even, occasionally, manage to make moral and ethical progress. But this is not the same situation that applies to the hideously inequitable distribution of wealth, and our corruption of the ecosystem. That really is an existential threat, and our very survival as a species depends on the answers we find to the challenges it poses. Or we will all die, starting with the poorest and most vulnerable, but encompassing the rest of us as we use lethal methods to gain and sustain control of scarce resources.

Uhmm, I'm pretty sure that the inequitable distribution of wealth has been around almost as long as sexual immorality. It seems to me that all of our supposed inequities just happened to appear about the same time that one man learned to judge the actions of another, and as long as we continue to do that they're not very apt to go away.

Conveniently Christians have an indisputable source by which to chastise their preferred abominations, but it gets referenced so often, and by so many that nobody seems to care anymore, except the choir. And while their prognostications can be disquieting they are for the most part harmless and we can all go about our lives knowing that mankind will most likely still be chugging along and listening to the gloom and doom for another few thousand years.

I for one, really don't care which supposed sky is falling, I've got a life to tend to.

 

[YahuahSaves]

Then why do some Christians believe being gay is fine but others think it is an abomination?

Because some make up a God to suit themselves

 

[YahuahSaves]

I find this really strange. I’m an atheist and have never been corrected by God. Does that mean I have been perfect in his eyes?

Yeah I checked that after I responded. Forgot the sub-forum is open to atheists. We are all drawn by the Holy Spirit, we choose to listen or not.

 

[YahuahSaves]

That wasn't why Jesus went to His cross, and it just won't do.

So, we all know this, or should by now, but prefer to avoid the issue and discuss 'sexual immorality', instead.

Jesus took the penalty for our sin (death) that "whoever shall believe in him" will not die, but have everlasting life. Sin of the flesh is putting our human will before God's will. Sexual immorality is included in that.

1 John 2:16

16 For the world offers only a craving for physical pleasure, a craving for everything we see, and pride in our achievements and possessions. These are not from the Father, but are from this world.

 

[YahuahSaves]

@Larnievc

I would be all for trying to redefine it/them, rules on sexual morality/families and conduct, etc, but I think we would have to have at least some rules on it to keep it all from turning into a literal Sodom and Gommorah, etc.

Which became about as close as you can get to a literal hell on earth with all it's supposed "sexual liberty/freedom", etc.

God Bless!

God already made the rules. It's up to humans to follow them or not. Choose his way (the way of life) or our own way (the way of death).

What Is Sexual Immorality - Discover Its Meaning and Consequences

 

[YahuahSaves]

I'm sorry, but the scriptures are far from clear. Leaving aside, for the moment, that they were largely written by Jews for Jews, a long time ago, when social norms and mores were very different, the fact they have spawned so much written commentary and theology and we still require a priestly class to explain what, exactly, they do mean, (and still they all find room to disagree) is prima facie attestation to that lack of clarity.

Best wishes, Strivax.

If they're not clear for you, them perhaps you need to ask the Holy Spirit for revelation.

 

[Lost Witness]

You can't hide from yourself. Wherever you go, there you are.

self control and to remove yourself from temptation

 

[grasping the after wind]

This is simply untrue. He does not correct us. He only acts after we are dead and there is no end to our time in Hell.

We basically have to guess what he ‘wants’ and take pot luck that we are correct.

That is simply not the case. We do not have to guess. What He wants has been clearly stated over and over again.