The Church's Civil War between those who follow Pope Benedict and those who follow Pope Francis

[LivingWordUnity]

If there is, it's because political conservatives are doing their absolute best to create one.

The liberals were the first to claim that Pope Francis is not like the popes before him. And now more people are starting to believe it. So people are taking sides, some going with Pope Francis and others going with the popes before. Hence it is now divided more than the Church was divided before.

 

[Open Heart]

So are you defending these lifestyles and world views? Are you inferring that the Church needs to accommodate and accept such things?

Where did you get that idea? Just because I notice something is true doesn't mean I'm justifying it.

 

[Michie]

It must be the spirit of condemnation, finger pointing... I remember people dragging Pope Benedict through the mud.

The liberals were the first to claim that Pope Francis is not like the popes before him.

And now more people are starting to believe it.

 

[Gnarwhal]

Where did you get that idea? Just because I notice something is true doesn't mean I'm justifying it.

That's why I'm asking.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

Let the Holy Spirit sort this one out.
We know with ourselves what the church has taught in the past and present and if somebody is deriving from those teachings and face a schism because of it we should be ready to follow the unchangeable truth, the deposit of faith not a lobby undermining the truth.

If these things were to happen then I'm certain we'd be sure who's who and the see through the disguise of the false prophet.

We can't be to easy to play either, I mean I for one do believe in the Catholic faith and all of it and that includes the eschatology too.

The eschatology will forward itself to become the present at some point in time and when that point in time has come we must be awake. I mean it's not impossible to know what to believe, just wipe the dust off of your catechism and read.
I pray that the eschatology may be actualized after I'm dead, but I cannot depend on it.

Lastly I pray that Mama Mary will stay with us and guide us through any struggles and difficulties we are to face on this earth.
Amen.

 

[pdudgeon]

Let the Holy Spirit sort this one out.
We know with ourselves what the church has taught in the past and present and if somebody is deriving from those teachings and face a schism because of it we should be ready to follow the unchangeable truth, the deposit of faith not a lobby undermining the truth.

If these things were to happen then I'm certain we'd be sure who's who and the see through the disguise of the false prophet.

We can't be to easy to play either, I mean I for one do believe in the Catholic faith and all of it and that includes the eschatology too.

The eschatology will forward itself to become the present at some point in time and when that point in time has come we must be awake. I mean it's not impossible to know what to believe, just wipe the dust off of your catechism and read.
I pray that the eschatology may be actualized after I'm dead, but I cannot depend on it.

Lastly I pray that Mama Mary will stay with us and guide us through any struggles and difficulties we are to face on this earth.
Amen.

Brilliant!
Agreed. This is why we have the Catechism, the Bible, and the writings of the Church: so that together we have a reliable overview not only of history, but also of what is to come.

We are to be watchful and not to be caught out like the foolish virgins without enough oil in our lamps not only to be able to see and recognize what lies ahead of us, but also (and most importantly!) to be able to recognize the truth of God from the false lies of satan.

How does a person know the difference? Easy!

We know the difference by the fruit that results from what is taught,
because bad, rotten fruit cannot be disguised as being good and wholesome.

So when we find bad, rotten fruit then we need look no further than the tree which produced that fruit and cut that tree down and uproot it, so that such fruit
may itself not take root.
Also, take a tip from the Feds. In order to be able to recognize counterfeit currency, their agents study the real thing and learn it's distinctive marks.
Then if those marks are missing on counterefeit money, they will be able to recognize what is real from what is false.

So we should do also when determining what is real and from God versus what is false and from satan.

but here's the real kicker: God has a future planned out for us, but satan will only offer the present covered with lies, because he has no truthful future to offer. So examine that fruit carefully my friends.

 

[Michie]

I think your point has been proven in this thread Open Heart by some of the posts you have received. Anybody that associates this with political parties is the one obsessed by their politics. Fact is, there is bickering in parishes. I have seen it, priests have talked about it. It happens. Mostly in Bible's studies, classes the Church offers, even in RCIA. It is not about politics at all. So accusations of being an operative for a political party, etc. in our "so-called" Catholic forum is more than being partisan and being hateful to those you disagree with. Jesus had something to say about that. Fruits and all that.

 

[Rhamiel]

If there is, it's because political conservatives are doing their absolute best to create one. As a practicing Catholic who is engaged with his faith and connected with several concrete faith communities, there is no civil war. Only on the internet on this so-called Catholic forum do I get an inkling that there is one.

It hasn't escaped my notice that this board is occupied by lay persons who are little more than an arm of the Republican party.

To paraphrase the Holy Father, Pope Francis (now gloriously reigning in Rome) if this is Catholicism, why not be an atheist? Fortunately, this board does not the Church make.

I think a few people might be over the top in favor of the Republican Party
But you find political ideologs no matter where you go online
I do not think OBOB is overly Republican but it might be overly republican
lol but that is a debate for another day

 

[Michie]

I think a few people might be over the top in favor of the Republican Party But you find political ideologs no matter where you go online I do not think OBOB is overly Republican but it might be overly republican lol but that is a debate for another day

Ha! Everyone is different. I hate politics. Those that idolize any party or label to build themselves up while tearing others down are blinded by the log in their own eye. The OP was talking about the division in the Church. And it exists. All the sudden it turns into people being operatives for the Republican Party in a "so called" Catholic forum. What does that have to do with anything??? Hey, Catholics have had issues with pope's since the beginning. Remember Pope Benedict? Seriously he was dragged through the mud repeatedly. Nobody seemed to freak out over it. I do not care how involved someone says they are in their faith... When that type of thing comes out of their mouths and there are clearly double standards and blind spots right in front of them committed by their "favorite people". When we stop identifying our fellow Catholics as Catholics and start calling them operatives for political parties or labeling people/liberal/conservative... With their own smug self satisfaction...while demonizing others that should tell anyone where the problem lies. It is a weird combination of religious and political bigotry while claiming to be the enlightened one.

 

[NewLove]

Worse still, there are Catholics that label /themselves/ as traditional or conservative or liberal or progressive or Democrat or Republican, as if Catholic is not sufficient. I even see that this site has sub forums to specifically cater to those with extreme views.

 

[Gnarwhal]

I think a few people might be over the top in favor of the Republican Party

For some, even many, the Republican or Democratic party is their true religion. Whether they're willing to admit it or not.

 

[Michie]

And that's the truth.

For some, even many, the Republican or Democratic party is their true religion. Whether they're willing to admit it or not.

 

[Bob Crowley]

I suppose as an ex-Protestant I don't bother much about what individual Popes are doing. Popes come and go, but the church goes on, and will continue to go on till the end of time.

Sure, they might set a trend for a while, but like Hula Hoops and Yo-Yos, the next pope will probably put the last pope out of fashion, until he goes, and a new hobby horse will start.

The real head of the Church is Christ, and while He's given the Pope's a certain amount of autonomy, you can bet your bottom dollar He keeps a close eye on things.

So I don't care much about individual Popes. Since I was born in 1954, there have been seven popes, including the notoriously short lived reign of John Paul I (I've got my own peculiar opinion about that, which I think was due to God keeping a close eye on HIS Church).

And quite possibly there'll be a couple more by the time I kick the bucket myself, and they'll have their supporters and detractors as well.

So I really don't care much, which is why I voted "Only God Knows".

 

[Michie]

Amen.

I suppose as an ex-Protestant I don't bother much about what individual Popes are doing. Popes come and go, but the church goes on, and will continue to go on till the end of time.

Sure, they might set a trend for a while, but like Hula Hoops and Yo-Yos, the next pope will probably put the last pope out of fashion, until he goes, and a new hobby horse will start.

The real head of the Church is Christ, and while He's given the Pope's a certain amount of autonomy, you can bet your bottom dollar He keeps a close eye on things.

So I don't care much about individual Popes. Since I was born in 1954, there have been seven popes, including the notoriously short lived reign of John Paul I (I've got my own peculiar opinion about that, which I think was due to God keeping a close eye on HIS Church).

And quite possibly there'll be a couple more by the time I kick the bucket myself, and they'll have their supporters and detractors as well.

So I really don't care much, which is why I voted "Only God Knows".

 

[Open Heart]

Worse still, there are Catholics that label /themselves/ as traditional or conservative or liberal or progressive or Democrat or Republican, as if Catholic is not sufficient. I even see that this site has sub forums to specifically cater to those with extreme views.

Labels are simply shortcuts that say a lot about us in a few words. There are things that are true about me that my Catholicism says nothing about. For example, even though I love interacting with people, I get drained by being around large groups, and need my alone time, like reading or typing in forums, to recover. That's two lines of typing to describe that about me. Or I can simply use the label: introvert.

 

[Michie]

Yes. That's true but there is an abuse of labels when it comes to liberal or conservative in the Catholic sense. We are first Catholics. That means you try to adhere to what the Church teaches. Bringing politics into the equasion is needless and unnessesary given all we know about what the Church teaches about social justice. Pope Francis is not liberal. He is Catholic. Pope Benedict is not conservative, he is Catholic. We all have our preferences in how we live that out. There is room in the Church for that. But when we start putting liberal or conservative before our faith and start with crazy conspiracy theories about being operatives for political parties, that is way off base. When you exclude fellow Catholics and demonize them by political standards, that's off base. When you question the Catholicity of the people in a forum and the statement about the forum itself, off base. Labels can be useful as far as we all have our ways of operating and God given gifts as long as we stay true to the teachings of the Church. But to worship the label first above anything else then start to exclude the big picture, the tapestry of the Church and the body within, off base. When you start to see everything by these labels and pronounce judgement on fellow brethern by these labels and whatever the definition of that is to the person throwing them around, that speaks for itself. Labels have their place but they are not the arbiter of our faith. Neither does Hillary, Bernie Sanders or president Trump. I think this was a pretty revealing thread overall and it proved itself in some posts.

Labels are simply shortcuts that say a lot about us in a few words. There are things that are true about me that my Catholicism says nothing about. For example, even though I love interacting with people, I get drained by being around large groups, and need my alone time, like reading or typing in forums, to recover. That's two lines of typing to describe that about me. Or I can simply use the label: introvert.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

Ha! Everyone is different. I hate politics. Those that idolize any party or label to build themselves up while tearing others down are blinded by the log in their own eye. The OP was talking about the division in the Church. And it exists. All the sudden it turns into people being operatives for the Republican Party in a "so called" Catholic forum. What does that have to do with anything??? Hey, Catholics have had issues with pope's since the beginning. Remember Pope Benedict? Seriously he was dragged through the mud repeatedly. Nobody seemed to freak out over it. I do not care how involved someone says they are in their faith... When that type of thing comes out of their mouths and there are clearly double standards and blind spots right in front of them committed by their "favorite people". When we stop identifying our fellow Catholics as Catholics and start calling them operatives for political parties or labeling people/liberal/conservative... With their own smug self satisfaction...while demonizing others that should tell anyone where the problem lies. It is a weird combination of religious and political bigotry while claiming to be the enlightened one.

Pope Benedict XVI was even physically attacked and knocked to the ground.

 

[pdudgeon]

there is a whole article about this very problem--that of infiltration, inattention, and especially discernment-- right here, and it's well worth a read. https://www.thecatholicthing.org/2017/07/23/guarding-the-kingdom/

 

[Virgil the Roman]

There's been talk of a de facto schism for about a decade or so now. Will it actually become de jure or out in the open?

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

There's been talk of a de facto schism for about a decade or so now. Will it actually become de jure or out in the open?

Sometime if God wants it to be.