The Church's Civil War between those who follow Pope Benedict and those who follow Pope Francis

[pdudgeon]

To what?

the OP. This is one of the things which we may not express an opinion about in this forum.
Were the OP to be moved by the mods to a more open forum,
then there would be more responses. It is what it is.

 

[Michie]

Oh ok!

 

[NewLove]

LOL You are right about that. The Catholic in the pew cares very little for theological disputes. If I could make some generalizations, the Catholic in the pew can't articulte the Trinity, uses contraception, does not attend Mass faithfully, but holds their Catholc faith in high value and simply assumes the Church will continue as it always has.

That isn't what I said, you know it isn't what I said, and you have just told me everything I need to know about how seriously you should be taken.

 

[Gnarwhal]

LOL You are right about that. The Catholic in the pew cares very little for theological disputes. If I could make some generalizations, the Catholic in the pew can't articulte the Trinity, uses contraception, does not attend Mass faithfully, but holds their Catholc faith in high value and simply assumes the Church will continue as it always has.

I don't know if that post was meant to be facetious, but that's just absurd and untrue.

This Catholic in the pew prizes the theological purity that the Catholic Church has always maintained and passed on, defends the right to life including the fact that conception is sinful and immoral, attends Mass every week—if not more, and I wholly and completely believe the Church will indeed march on in spite of the radical wings on both sides. The progressives won't win out. The sedevacantists won't win out.

Here's the rub: the Catholic in the pew next to me who sponsored me through RCIA believes the exact same thing. The Catholic married to him believes the exact same thing, their many Catholic friends in our age group believe the exact same thing. We're 25-30 year olds. The 50-, 60-, and 70-somethings who have catechized hundreds of people (and have indirectly catechized thousands throughout my diocese) believe the exact same thing.

Sure there are crypto-heterodox baby boomers peppered throughout the west, but their ideas, opinions, and worldviews are inconsequential when compared to the unwavering 2,000-year-old truth of the Church.

Benedict XVI was a great pope, I'm thankful he's still alive and that we still have an opportunity to glean wisdom from a wonderful man of God. Francis is our pope now, his focus is different than Benedicts but that doesn't make him any less papal than Benedict. We acknowledge him as pope, because anything less is to be in schism.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

There is no divide that I see. At my Parish and the Parishes I visit, there are Christians giving their time and talents to the Lord to serve Him and His children. On the internet, bitter extremists will fight over what they thing this Pope or that Pope should do, but in the real world people are far less divided and less likely to get on soapboxes about their pet agendas.

As always, the people with faith are in the streets doing the thankless hard work while those who serve themselves bicker.

A bit to simplistic I'm afraid.
I read this post as a masked attack on the Christian work and charity of those who label themselves traditionalists, I hope I'm wrong to read it this way cause it's a very false and un-nuanced picture of said group.

Thing is that there is a divide, but on parish level it's relatively small and one would have to be a frequent member of the congregation to notice it and even then it's not screaming at you.

The danger, the real danger is in the Vatican cause that's where schisms starts.
The cardinals are farther from one another on the different wings than they've been since the great schism.

The level of ecclesiastical crisis or danger of a schism is at the freezing point.
I'd say let's not pray for those who's closest to our own heart, but all of the clergy in the world and especially at the Vatican.

 

[Open Heart]

This Catholic in the pew prizes the theological purity of that the Catholic Church has always maintained and passed on, defends the right to life including the fact that conception is sinful and immoral, attends Mass every week—if not more, and I wholly and completely believe the Church will indeed march on in spite of the radical wings on both sides. The progressives won't win out. The sedevacantists won't win out.

Here's the rub: the Catholic in the pew next to me who sponsored me through RCIA believes the exact same thing. The Catholic married to him believes the exact same thing, their many Catholic friends in our age group believe the exact same thing. We're 25-30 year olds. The 50-, 60-, and 70-somethings who have catechized hundreds of people (and have indirectly catechized thousands throughout my diocese) believe the exact same thing.

It's not been my experience. They have two children for a reason. And you don't see them every week for a reason. I know Catholics at my parish that are living together, involved in gay relationships, are divorced and remarried, are even pro-choice (though they keep really quiet about it). I think perhaps I know these things because people sense that I'm the sort that will accept them despite their flaws and will not divulge secrets.

Now the Catholics in this forum tend to be devout.

 

[Open Heart]

That isn't what I said, you know it isn't what I said, and you have just told me everything I need to know about how seriously you should be taken.

Serious enough to know that I teach an orthodox catechism to first year confirmation students. I'm just honest about what I see in the Church.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

It's not been my experience. They have two children for a reason. And you don't see them every week for a reason. I know Catholics at my parish that are living together, involved in gay relationships, are divorced and remarried, are even pro-choice (though they keep really quiet about it). I think perhaps I know these things because people sense that I'm the sort that will accept them despite their flaws and will not divulge secrets.

Now the Catholics in this forum tend to be devout.

I second this.
Most Catholics in church are so in name only and many hold to some sort of a Catholicism flavored Protestantism faith where they keep what they like about the Catholic faith and ignore the rest while still calling themselves Catholic.

It's like some sort of a inward sickness inside the church. Worst thing is that these people teach children and candidates in many parishes thus spreading their heresy to the kids.

It's a great shame really.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

 

[eastcoast_bsc]

Well if this board is any indication of a "civil war" everyone will just split up and backbite one another. I do not think Open Heart meant anything untoward by posting about an obvious divide in the Church. It is weird but I'm sure it is not the first time this kind of thing has happened.

I agree Michie, I do not think the OP had any malicious intent.

To be honest, the church is mirroring society. We are in a period of increasing division in society that is growing into a visceral hatred of each other.

I feel it should be discussed.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

What's happening in the Church today is like what happened in Exodus 32.

 

[eastcoast_bsc]

It's not been my experience. They have two children for a reason. And you don't see them every week for a reason. I know Catholics at my parish that are living together, involved in gay relationships, are divorced and remarried, are even pro-choice (though they keep really quiet about it). I think perhaps I know these things because people sense that I'm the sort that will accept them despite their flaws and will not divulge secrets.

Now the Catholics in this forum tend to be devout.

We have de facto Gay Parishes in Boston like St. Cecelias in the South End of Boston.

 

[football5680]

Hopefully the next Pope will come and just speak more clearly. I would want somebody like Cardinal Sarah because I know he would not be afraid to speak the truth plainly and teach what the Church has always taught. At that point I would hope that the people who are only Catholic in name today will accept and abide by the teachings of the Church, or they should leave. The current environment of confusion should not be allowed to stand.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

Hopefully the next Pope will come and just speak more clearly. I would want somebody like Cardinal Sarah because I know he would not be afraid to speak the truth plainly and teach what the Church has always taught. At that point I would hope that the people who are only Catholic in name today will accept and abide by the teachings of the Church, or they should leave. The current environment of confusion should not be allowed to stand.

Because of the choices that Pope Francis has been making for cardinals, it seems less and less likely that if there is a next pope that it will be one like Cardinal Sarah. Although a miracle is possible.

 

[tadoflamb]

LOL You are right about that. The Catholic in the pew cares very little for theological disputes. If I could make some generalizations, the Catholic in the pew can't articulte the Trinity, uses contraception, does not attend Mass faithfully, but holds their Catholc faith in high value and simply assumes the Church will continue as it always has.

Not this Catholic in the pew.

There is no civil war. I'm sick of political conservatives trying to make out that there is one.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

Not this Catholic in the pew.

There is no civil war. I'm sick of political conservatives trying to make out that there is one.

The irony is your post suggests that there is a division.

 

[Gnarwhal]

It's not been my experience. They have two children for a reason. And you don't see them every week for a reason. I know Catholics at my parish that are living together, involved in gay relationships, are divorced and remarried, are even pro-choice (though they keep really quiet about it). I think perhaps I know these things because people sense that I'm the sort that will accept them despite their flaws and will not divulge secrets.

So are you defending these lifestyles and world views? Are you inferring that the Church needs to accommodate and accept such things?

There is no civil war. There are simply individuals and groups who are choosing to place themselves outside of the Church by objectively expressing believes and living lifestyles in opposition to Church teaching. Consequentially they divorce themselves from the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Whether they think the Chair of St. Peter has been unoccupied for decades or that abortion and gay marriage are acceptable, both sides are gravely in error.

 

[tadoflamb]

The irony is your post suggests that there is a division.

If there is, it's because political conservatives are doing their absolute best to create one. As a practicing Catholic who is engaged with his faith and connected with several concrete faith communities, there is no civil war. Only on the internet on this so-called Catholic forum do I get an inkling that there is one.

It hasn't escaped my notice that this board is occupied by lay persons who are little more than an arm of the Republican party.

To paraphrase the Holy Father, Pope Francis (now gloriously reigning in Rome) if this is Catholicism, why not be an atheist? Fortunately, this board does not the Church make.

 

[Michie]

Or liberals. I remember when you lost your cookies over CF redefining marriage icons. Stop pointing the finger.

Not this Catholic in the pew.

There is no civil war. I'm sick of political conservatives trying to make out that there is one.

 

[Michie]

Can we come into your forum and argue so called liberal "theology" and politics?

If there is, it's because political conservatives are doing their absolute best to create one. As a practicing Catholic who is engaged with his faith and connected with several concrete faith communities, there is no civil war. Only on the internet on this so-called Catholic forum do I get an inkling that there is one.

It hasn't escaped my notice that this board is occupied by lay persons who are little more than an arm of the Republican party.

To paraphrase the Holy Father, Pope Francis (now gloriously reigning in Rome) if this is Catholicism, why not be an atheist? Fortunately, this board does not the Church make.