OK, who are they and I'll ask them. You claim that MANY believe what you claim, but where are they ?
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Benefactor
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I would suggest that when they received the HS that it happened. Why should we doubt what it says? Now, at Pentecost the Holy Spirit came and baptized believers. Some there were already saved, others were saved and the disciples had previously received the HS but they had not received power from on high. Both are true it is just a matter of working out the understanding of the complete picture.
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Hismessenger
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Benefactor, what you say is true. The problem is that many do not understand that what occurred on the day of Pentecost was a manifestation of the spirit already given. Any of the gifts that we operate in today are manifestations of the Holy Spirit within us.
When the manifestation of tongues appeared before the crowd it was the power which they were told to wait upon and when it came they were empowered to preach the gospel. It wasn't about the manifestation but rather what the manifestation opened up for them to do. There are many manifestations of the spirit but only one spirit by which the manifestations are wrought.
hismessenger
When the manifestation of tongues appeared before the crowd it was the power which they were told to wait upon and when it came they were empowered to preach the gospel. It wasn't about the manifestation but rather what the manifestation opened up for them to do. There are many manifestations of the spirit but only one spirit by which the manifestations are wrought.
hismessenger
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Apollos1
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Hismessenger originally said -
The problem is that many do not understand that what occurred on the day of Pentecost was a manifestation of the spirit already given.
I also disagree with your assessment of John 20. What is in that passage that leads you to think that the HS was given to the Apostles right then and there? Why is it important for you to think so? Is this what you want to think so you can say that the HS waits within believers and that His manifestations can take place at any time and spontaneously? If so, you read the passage (John 20) not for what it says, but for what you desire for it to say. This is bad exegesis!
I believe that Luke 24:49, Acts 1:4,5,8, 2:4 clearly show that the Apostles were to wait in Jerusalem to receive the HS. This conclusion is inescapable from this evidence.
Aslo ask, what about Matthias? He was not there in John 20.
Hismessenger originally said -
Any of the gifts that we operate in today are manifestations of the Holy Spirit within us.
Knowing that the purpose of "gifts" was to reveal and confirm God's word (Acts 8:6, 14:3, 15:8, Heb 2:4, Mark 16:20), knowing "gifts" were to cease (1 Cor 13:8-13), and therefore knowing the purpose of gifts is fulfilled, I say there are no manifestations of this type today.
Hismessenger originally said -
When the manifestation of tongues appeared before the crowd it was the power which they were told to wait upon and when it came they were empowered to preach the gospel.
It appears you think tongues are the only gift received by the Apostles on Pentecost in Acts 2. Why? See Acts 2:43.
Hismessenger originally said -
It wasn't about the manifestation but rather what the manifestation opened up for them to do.
I think I agree. The "gifts" given to the Apostles were sufficient to do what God intended for them to do - reveal and confirm His word. We see in Acts 2 that they did.
Hismessenger originally said -
There are many manifestations of the spirit but only one spirit by which the manifestations are wrought.
Agreed.
The problem is that many do not understand that what occurred on the day of Pentecost was a manifestation of the spirit already given.
I also disagree with your assessment of John 20. What is in that passage that leads you to think that the HS was given to the Apostles right then and there? Why is it important for you to think so? Is this what you want to think so you can say that the HS waits within believers and that His manifestations can take place at any time and spontaneously? If so, you read the passage (John 20) not for what it says, but for what you desire for it to say. This is bad exegesis!
I believe that Luke 24:49, Acts 1:4,5,8, 2:4 clearly show that the Apostles were to wait in Jerusalem to receive the HS. This conclusion is inescapable from this evidence.
Aslo ask, what about Matthias? He was not there in John 20.
Hismessenger originally said -
Any of the gifts that we operate in today are manifestations of the Holy Spirit within us.
Knowing that the purpose of "gifts" was to reveal and confirm God's word (Acts 8:6, 14:3, 15:8, Heb 2:4, Mark 16:20), knowing "gifts" were to cease (1 Cor 13:8-13), and therefore knowing the purpose of gifts is fulfilled, I say there are no manifestations of this type today.
Hismessenger originally said -
When the manifestation of tongues appeared before the crowd it was the power which they were told to wait upon and when it came they were empowered to preach the gospel.
It appears you think tongues are the only gift received by the Apostles on Pentecost in Acts 2. Why? See Acts 2:43.
Hismessenger originally said -
It wasn't about the manifestation but rather what the manifestation opened up for them to do.
I think I agree. The "gifts" given to the Apostles were sufficient to do what God intended for them to do - reveal and confirm His word. We see in Acts 2 that they did.
Hismessenger originally said -
There are many manifestations of the spirit but only one spirit by which the manifestations are wrought.
Agreed.
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Hismessenger
Senior Member
My understanding of John 20 is based on the fact that the Holy Spirit has always been there just as Christ has always been there. It wasn't something new but rather the opening of Him to all who would believe as did those in the scriptures above. Prophets of old.
hismessenger
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Benefactor
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I will build my church
The Spirit was with believers but not in them, the apostles received the Holy Spirit prior to the day of Pentecost. Many on that day received the Holy Spirit. The apostles were empowered on that day while those who of their free will agree with God about their condition and received Christ as savior. The Beginning of the Church was Acts 2. The preliminary work leading up to the beginning of the Church of course was that which preceded it.
The Spirit was with believers but not in them, the apostles received the Holy Spirit prior to the day of Pentecost. Many on that day received the Holy Spirit. The apostles were empowered on that day while those who of their free will agree with God about their condition and received Christ as savior. The Beginning of the Church was Acts 2. The preliminary work leading up to the beginning of the Church of course was that which preceded it.
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Hismessenger
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The church began with the prophets and continues on today. The only difference between todays church and the old testament church is that Christ had not come. But the prophets knew of Him and their books foretold of the church age which they were the beginning of. Abraham saw his day and rejoiced in it. Abraham saw Christ, the first born of the church and rejoiced because of it. There are many places in the old testament where the church is mentioned but most who read the scripture had not the Holy Spirit with them as did the prophets. That is why it was a mystery but it is no longer a mystery and those who read the old testament should be able to recognize the beginnings of the church in them.
The book of Zec. chapter 4 speaks of the candlesticks and olive trees which are also mentioned in the testimony by the two witnesses. We looking back today with the spirit should be able to see this without prompting from anyone else. One last thing about the church starting on the day of Pentecost, What about all those who came to Christ himself while he was walking the earth. Have they been forgotten to prop up a modern day doctrine preached by a man? The truth is there to be had. It was a mystery but yet and still it did exist in the old testament or else it wouldn't have been spoken of. The prophets didn't write the scripture for their own selves but for us who were to come.
hismessenger
The book of Zec. chapter 4 speaks of the candlesticks and olive trees which are also mentioned in the testimony by the two witnesses. We looking back today with the spirit should be able to see this without prompting from anyone else. One last thing about the church starting on the day of Pentecost, What about all those who came to Christ himself while he was walking the earth. Have they been forgotten to prop up a modern day doctrine preached by a man? The truth is there to be had. It was a mystery but yet and still it did exist in the old testament or else it wouldn't have been spoken of. The prophets didn't write the scripture for their own selves but for us who were to come.
hismessenger
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Hismessenger
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I might add that they were in Jerusalem when John 20:22 occurred. Enough said.
hismessenger
hismessenger
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christinyou2
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Who was the first born among many? Who are the Many? How could anyone be born before the first One. When was Christ Born Again? When the Father raised Him from the dead. When do the many become the body of Christ, His Church, Not the synagogue of Israel which is Gods people His estranged wife.
The Body of Christ are the, "Many", after the first born, which is Christ, we must born again that we will be conformed to Christ, which is the Fathers purpose in the Cross, new creatures in Christ Jesus, Born Again son's of God and brothers to and in Christ and eachother. Our Father has given us new birth and no one will take us from, of His Hand.
No one in the old testament could be born again, because the First has not been birthed through Mary, The Only Begotten Son of God and He had not hang on a Cross and die, the He be resurrected to the First Born among many, and His Seed birthed in us by the Father.
1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for His seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
John 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
We are the seed of God in Christ, It is Christs Seed that is born again in us. We are son's of God, not son's of Israel, Israel earthly, Body of Christ, Heavenly.
Abraham, seed of the Flesh, David, Seed of the flesh, Christ, Seed of the Father, two are earthly and only One is the First born Seed among many, Christ Jesus the Head of His Body the Church of neither Jew or Gentile, but of Christ and His Seed which the Father has birthed in us or else we are none of His. The Spirit of Christ is called for the Seed of the believer, For Christ is now our Spirit and our soul is becoming and will be conformed to Christ and our Body will be like His in the resurrection rapture of His Body, His Church and we will live with the Father In His house forever, therefore comfort one another with these words. For we are the direct descendants of God the Father by His Son's Seed, our Father has rebirthed in us that we are called the son's of God, and fellow heirs with Jesus Christ where we are in Spirit already seated in the heavenlies with Him, He will come to get the rest of His Body His Church and so we will ever be with the Lord.
2 Corinthians 1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us;
By Faith we stand in this delivered from so great a death by Christ being born again in us and we now have the Spirit of Christ as our Spirit. Who doth deliver in our soul by the Holy Spirit that teaches us this Christ we are to be conformed to by the renewing of our minds to the Mind of Christ which we also have. He will yet deliver us on resurrection-rapture day and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
2 Corinthians 1:13-24 For we write none other things unto you, than what ye read or acknowledge; and I trust ye shall acknowledge even to the end; As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are ours in the day of the Lord Jesus. And in this confidence I was minded to come unto you before, that ye might have a second benefit; And to pass by you into Macedonia, and to come again out of Macedonia unto you, and of you to be brought on my way toward Judaea. When I therefore was thus minded, did I use lightness? or the things that I purpose, do I purpose according to the flesh, that with me there should be yea yea, and nay nay? But as God is true, our word toward you was not yea and nay. For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea. For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us. Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts. Moreover I call God for a record upon my soul, that to spare you I came not as yet unto Corinth. Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.
In Christ: Phillip
The Body of Christ are the, "Many", after the first born, which is Christ, we must born again that we will be conformed to Christ, which is the Fathers purpose in the Cross, new creatures in Christ Jesus, Born Again son's of God and brothers to and in Christ and eachother. Our Father has given us new birth and no one will take us from, of His Hand.
No one in the old testament could be born again, because the First has not been birthed through Mary, The Only Begotten Son of God and He had not hang on a Cross and die, the He be resurrected to the First Born among many, and His Seed birthed in us by the Father.
1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for His seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
John 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
We are the seed of God in Christ, It is Christs Seed that is born again in us. We are son's of God, not son's of Israel, Israel earthly, Body of Christ, Heavenly.
Abraham, seed of the Flesh, David, Seed of the flesh, Christ, Seed of the Father, two are earthly and only One is the First born Seed among many, Christ Jesus the Head of His Body the Church of neither Jew or Gentile, but of Christ and His Seed which the Father has birthed in us or else we are none of His. The Spirit of Christ is called for the Seed of the believer, For Christ is now our Spirit and our soul is becoming and will be conformed to Christ and our Body will be like His in the resurrection rapture of His Body, His Church and we will live with the Father In His house forever, therefore comfort one another with these words. For we are the direct descendants of God the Father by His Son's Seed, our Father has rebirthed in us that we are called the son's of God, and fellow heirs with Jesus Christ where we are in Spirit already seated in the heavenlies with Him, He will come to get the rest of His Body His Church and so we will ever be with the Lord.
2 Corinthians 1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us;
By Faith we stand in this delivered from so great a death by Christ being born again in us and we now have the Spirit of Christ as our Spirit. Who doth deliver in our soul by the Holy Spirit that teaches us this Christ we are to be conformed to by the renewing of our minds to the Mind of Christ which we also have. He will yet deliver us on resurrection-rapture day and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
2 Corinthians 1:13-24 For we write none other things unto you, than what ye read or acknowledge; and I trust ye shall acknowledge even to the end; As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are ours in the day of the Lord Jesus. And in this confidence I was minded to come unto you before, that ye might have a second benefit; And to pass by you into Macedonia, and to come again out of Macedonia unto you, and of you to be brought on my way toward Judaea. When I therefore was thus minded, did I use lightness? or the things that I purpose, do I purpose according to the flesh, that with me there should be yea yea, and nay nay? But as God is true, our word toward you was not yea and nay. For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea. For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us. Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts. Moreover I call God for a record upon my soul, that to spare you I came not as yet unto Corinth. Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.
In Christ: Phillip
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Hismessenger
Senior Member
It is the children of promise whether Old or New testament which make up the born again in Christ. You look at it with the natural eye but there is another side in which Christ was already the firstborn, slain from the foundation of the world to be the saviour of the world. Therefore those who believe in God in the Old testament were considered faithful and true. For Christ was in God from the beginning.
David being a man of war was also a man after god's own heart. This is because David always repented of His wrongs when he was made aware of them. And it was imputed to Him as righteousness. We cannot say who is or isn't called of God to be his people. It is a mistake to try.
hismessenger
David being a man of war was also a man after god's own heart. This is because David always repented of His wrongs when he was made aware of them. And it was imputed to Him as righteousness. We cannot say who is or isn't called of God to be his people. It is a mistake to try.
hismessenger
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Benefactor
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The Church is separate from the OT saints and the tribulation saints and the millennial saints.
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Hismessenger
Senior Member
One body, many members, all nations tongues and gender. Show one scripture which separates the old from the new and i'll show you many scripture which carry from the old through the new. There is no such thing as OT saints and trib saints or millennium saints. There are only saints from all ages. God has ordained it to be so.
hismessenger
hismessenger
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Benefactor
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Jesus said I will build my Church
I have already started=NO
I am starting=NO
I will=Yes
I have already started=NO
I am starting=NO
I will=Yes
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Hismessenger
Senior Member
It began in the old testament with the calling of AbrahamRom 4:16 Therefore [it is] of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
hismessenger
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oikodomeō according to blue letter bible lexicon, this word may have other meanings
) to build a house, erect a building a) to build (up from the foundation)
b) to restore by building, to rebuild, repair
2) metaph.
a) to found, establish
b) to promote growth in Christian wisdom, affection, grace, virtue, holiness, blessedness
c) to grow in wisdom and piety
He may be restoring, repairing or growing something already in existence.
) to build a house, erect a building a) to build (up from the foundation)
b) to restore by building, to rebuild, repair
2) metaph.
a) to found, establish
b) to promote growth in Christian wisdom, affection, grace, virtue, holiness, blessedness
c) to grow in wisdom and piety
He may be restoring, repairing or growing something already in existence.
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Benefactor
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Of course any group of people in the Greek language is called a "Church" so the term is the same. The difference between the Church of the OT and the NT is that the NT is the bride of Christ made up of true born again believers from Acts 2 to the Rapture. All believers of all ages are in one sense in Christ but only those from the Acts 2 to the Rapture are the Bride of Christ. The word church is used in a local setting and the local church is a mixture of same and lost. The key to this truth is Bride of Christ or in Christ and this church will be ruptured out followed by the 70th week of Daniel and then the 1k kingdom.
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Hismessenger
Senior Member
You addressed the part about the church but neglected to comment on Him who was there in the wilderness. Christ, God the same yesterday today and forever more. Israel was suppose to show forth the glory of God which is the same purpose as the new testament church. They were a chosen and peculiar people same as the church. Yet you can't see the connection. The modern day church is the continuation of the people Israel who were given the oracles of God to give to the unrepentant. One body, many members.
hismessenger
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glen55
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Wife the new earth, bride the new jerusalem that comes down from God out of heaven, one new man the heavenlies.
Glen.
Glen.
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According to ephesians 3 the church is something entirely new and thus nothing comparable with Israel. The direction and perspective was unthinkable for Israel.
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