The Church - The Body of Christ

[Ghost air]

I'll let the scripture answer that,

They knew who He was.

So your claim is that OT saints knew who Jesus of Nazareth was before He ever came in the flesh...?

Abraham talked with Him in a manifestation of the flesh before Sodom and Gomorrah The word says that God talked with Moses face to face. this is confirmed on the mount of transfiguration. There are many more places that show they knew He was coming. Isaiah talks about His coming and so did Jeremiah and Zachariah.

It's all there if you have eyes to see and ears to her what the spirit is saying.

hismessenger

In the scripture you posted... it did say that they confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth, although it doesn't say that they confessed Jesus of Nazareth as the Son of the living God.

Also... if Christ was ALREADY building His church in the OT, then Matt 16 doesn't make a lot of sense... because why would He say that He was going to build His church based upon the confession of Himself if that was already happening...? It's basically what the OP asks...

IMO, the just have ALWAYS lived by faith... in the OT and in the NT... and that's what pleases God. So the OT saints didn't know of Jesus of Nazareth, although they certainly had the Law and prophets which pointed to Him.

 

[Hismessenger]

Here are some verses from Isa.

You should read the whole chapter but I think you will see what it is saying.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Isa 9:7 Of the increase of [his] government and peace [there shall be] no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Isa 9:8 The Lord sent a word into Jacob, and it hath lighted upon Israel.

Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this [is] his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Zec 6:12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name [is] The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:

Zec 6:13 Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.

Zec 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he [is] just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

He could be and was found by those who sought Him in the old testament.

hismessenger

 

[Hismessenger]

Psa 40:7 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book [it is] written of me,

Christ quoted the old testament for it was all about Him.

hismessenger

 

[Ghost air]

Christ quoted the old testament for it was all about Him.

hismessenger

Yes it was all about Christ... although it wasn't about Jesus of Nazareth... and the bible does say in Matt 16 that Christ will build His church based upon the confession of Himself (Jesus of Nazareth) as the Son of the living God.

That's something that never happened in the OT... obviously because Christ was not yet manifest in the flesh.

Now if you'd like to pretend that OT saints DID confess Jesus of Nazareth to be the Son of the living God, before He ever came in the flesh, then you're obviously entitled to that... although I doubt that many folks will actually agree with that opinion.

 

[Ghost air]

Here's another portion of scripture from John 7 which makes it crystal clear (IMO) that believing on Christ was something that did not happen in the OT...

In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto Me, and drink. He that believeth on Me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake He of the Spirit, which they that believe on Him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Many OT saints obviously knew that Christ was coming... even the woman at the well in John4 did... and yet multitudes missed Him completely... why in the world would they crucify Him if they already knew that He was the Christ... it's because they did not believe that JESUS of Nazareth was the Christ... that's why.

Many did believe that Jesus was the Christ... and so we're told that they would receive the Spirit when they did believe on Him...

So WHEN did the Father send the promised Comforter...?

At Pentecost... and this affirms the fact that the church IS built upon the foundation of the APOSTLES and prophets, with Jesus Christ Himself being its chief cornerstone.

So how could the church be built upon the foundation of the APOSTLES in the OT, if Christ had not yet come and selected them as the twelve..?

 

[Hismessenger]

But the truth is that the Holy Spirit was already indwelling many in the old testament. David said take not thy holy Spirit from me.
The passage you quote was in relationship to the fact that there was still a veil between common man and God which when removed allowed everyone who believed access to the Father through the Spirit. Those of the Spirit already had a relationship with the Father and infilling with the spirit.

Many believe that the Holy Spirit came on the day of Pentecost but this could not be farther from the truth. You find him in many places in the old testament for He was also there just like Christ. He parted the Red sea, raised Lazarus from the dead and brought down the walls of Jericho just to name a few of the things which he did in the Old testament.

Then in the book of John chapter 20 we have this recorded;

Jhn 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first [day] of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace [be] unto you.
Jhn 20:20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them [his] hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
Jhn 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace [be] unto you: as [my] Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
Jhn 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

The Holy Ghost had already been given and on the day of Pentecost showed a manifestation of his presence through them.

He is truly God in the things which he shows you.

hismessenger

 

[Ghost air]

But the truth is that the Holy Spirit was already indwelling many in the old testament. David said take not thy holy Spirit from me.

Are you sure about that..? We know that certain men and prophets had the Spirit of God upon them, although how can you say that they had the Spirit of God indwelling them like rivers of water if John 7 says that THAT could not happen yet because Jesus was not yet GLORIFIED..?

The evidence is stacked against you...

The bible says that Christ WOULD build His church based upon the confession of Himself being the Son of the living God... something which was obviously impossible in OT times... because obviously Jesus of Nazareth had not yet been manifest in the flesh to Israel.

The bible says that the church of God is built upon the FOUNDATION of the APOSTLES and prophets, with Jesus Christ being its chief cornerstone... again, obviously it's impossible to build upon a foundation that did NOT exist in the OT.

The bible says that the church of God was a mystery and that it was HIDDEN in times past... but now revealed through His Holy apostles and prophets... so evidently... if God was building His church back in OT times (As you claim), then they did NOT know what they were a part of.

I find it hard to imagine why any believer would continue to ignore these things in the scriptures, simply to cling to a claim that the church existed in the OT...

The passage you quote was in relationship to the fact that there was still a veil between common man and God which when removed allowed everyone who believed access to the Father through the Spirit. Those of the Spirit already had a relationship with the Father and infilling with the spirit.

IF you read it... it says that those who would believe on Him should recieve, for the HOLY GHOST was NOT YET GIVEN...

If you'd like to pretend that it means that the Holy Ghost was already given, then so be it.

Many believe that the Holy Spirit came on the day of Pentecost but this could not be farther from the truth.

Really, it's pretty simple imo if you just read the story... Peter says this toward the end of his message...

This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

Again, how in the world could you say that nothing could be farther from the truth..?

 

[Benefactor]

Thanks Ghost Air for supporting correct interpretation:

Let me again offer support.

These Scriptures are normal ordinary Prose. To avoid what they say one must allegorize them, or spiritualize them. This is the normal amillennial positioning, allegorize and spiritualize to avoid normal prose. The correct term for understanding Bible literature is “normal literal historical grammatical” method. Amillennailist refuse to do this and as a result change meaning and assign secondary meaning to clear written prose.


13. But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14. For He Himself is our peace, who made both {groups into} one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15. by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, {which is} the Law of commandments {contained} in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, {thus} establishing peace, 16. and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity. 17. AND HE CAME AND PREACHED PEACE TO YOU WHO WERE FAR AWAY,(gentiles) AND PEACE TO THOSE WHO WERE NEAR(Jews); 18. for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. 19. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household,
20. having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner {stone,} 21. in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, 22. in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.

. For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles--
2. if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God's grace which was given to me for you; 3. that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief. 4. By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5. which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit;
6. {to be specific,} that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel,

When we look at these passages carefully we see that all Jews who were saved prior to the Cross now are put into Christ and all Gentiles coming to salvation are put into Christ. Both saved Jews and Gentiles make up the Body of Christ.

Jesus is the corner stone and the mystery of the Church has NOW been reveled to HIS holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit..

 

[Hismessenger]

Then how do you explain John 20:22.

This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this,which ye now see and hear.

By your own post of scripture it says that what was seen was a manifestation of the spirit which John 20:22 says was already given.

Did the word lie or does your understanding falter as to what it says.

hismessenger

 

[Benefactor]

Then how do you explain John 2:22.

This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this,which ye now see and hear.
​

By your own post of scripture it says that what was seen was a manifestation of the spirit which John 20:22 says was already given.

Did the word lie or does your understanding falter as to what it says.

hismessenger

John's Gospel Chapter 2 - following verisous version - Your John 2:22 and these do not agree??????????????????????


King James Version
2:22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

American Standard Version
2:22 When therefore he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he spake this; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

Bible in Basic English
2:22 So when he had come back again from the dead, the memory of these words came back to the disciples, and they had faith in the holy Writings and in the word which Jesus had said.

Darby's English Translation
2:22 When therefore he was raised from among the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this, and believed the scripture and the word which Jesus had spoken.

Douay Rheims
2:22 When therefore he was risen again from the dead, his disciples remembered, that he had said this, and they believed the scripture, and the word that Jesus had said.

Noah Webster Bible
2:22 When therefore he had risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this to them: and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had spoken.

Weymouth New Testament
2:22 When however He had risen from among the dead, His disciples recollected that He had said this; and they believed the Scripture and the teaching which Jesus had given them.
W

 

[Hismessenger]

Sorry, forgot the 0. It's John 20:22 not 2:22

hismessener

 

[Ghost air]

Sorry, forgot the 0. It's John 20:22 not 2:22

hismessener

This is an interesting portion and I always thought of it in the confines of Christ and His Apostles... which is in part the foundation upon which the church is built...

This passage in no way diminishes the truth of the Spirit being sent at Pentecost, which you claim could not be further from the truth... and it in no way diminishes the fact of what John 7 teaches us... that the Spirit had NOT YET been given because Jesus had not yet been glorified.

IT in no way diminishes the fact that the church of God is being built upon the confession of Jesus of Nazareth being the Son of the living God, or that it is built upon the foundation of the APOSTLES and prophets, with Christ Jesus being its chief cornerstone.

So in other words... it appears that you're trying to use a rather obscure portion of scripture to over-ride crystal clear portions of scripture... and so as mentioned...

IMO, the scriptures are stacked against your claim that the church of God existed prior to Christ and His Apostles.

 

[Hismessenger]

Jhn 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first [day] of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace [be] unto you.
Jhn 20:20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them [his] hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
Jhn 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace [be] unto you: as [my] Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
Jhn 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost

This passage of scripture begs to differ with those who hold to the Holy Spirit coming on the day of Pentecost. What happened on the day of Pentecost was a manifestation of the Spirit which was already indwelling the disciples as given by verse 22 on a day before Pentecost as given by verse 19.

And then going back into the Old testament where David pleaded that God take not His Holy spirit from Him which Indwelt David from the day of His anointing as King.

All there in the scripture for you to confirm or deny, leaning to your own understanding. The truth is given according to the word written, not my words but the words of the prophets. Whether you accept them or not is not my concern, only that I gave them.

hismessenger

 

[Ghost air]

This passage of scripture begs to differ with those who hold to the Holy Spirit coming on the day of Pentecost.

Then perhaps you can tell us what Peter is speaking about and what he actually means... obviouosly you reject the clear teaching of scripture here in Acts 2... so tell us what it means Hismessenger...

This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

ALSO... you can deny til the cows come home that the church is built upon the foundation of the APOSTLES and prophets, and that Christ is building it based upon the confession of Jesus of Nazareth being the Son of the living God...

Your rejection of these clear scriptural teachings doesn't change it any.

 

[Hismessenger]

and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

Does not John 20:22 Say that Christ had received the promise of the Holy Spirit and then Shed it forth to the disciples

What was seen on the day of Pentecost was a manifestation of the Spirit which the disciples had already received. Do you deny the scripture for what you want to believe?

Let me ask you this, when the Holy Spirit indwells you, are you always manifesting His presence or is it when He wants to show Himself that he appears.?

hismessenger

 

[Ghost air]

Does not John 20:22 Say that Christ had received the promise of the Holy Spirit and then Shed it forth to the disciples

NO it doesn't - but Acts 2 does.

What was seen on the day of Pentecost was a manifestation of the Spirit which the disciples had already received. Do you deny the scripture for what you want to believe?

What I believe is exactly what the scripture DOES say... that Jesus was at the right hand of the Father EXALTED and that HE recieved the promise of the Father and then Peter SAY that this is what you see shed forth.

If that means a manifestation to YOU, then so be it... I understand your opinion, and IMO it does NOT align with what I read in the scriptures.. AND again if you'd likie to DENY the crystal clear FACT that the church is built upon the foundation of the APOSTLES and prophets... then go right ahead.

Let me ask you this, when the Holy Spirit indwells you, are you always manifesting His presence or is it when He wants to show Himself that he appears.?

hismessenger

when I read what Peter says about Christ being exalted and receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit, and that this is what has been shed forth... I tend to believe IT... but hey, that's me...

SAME with the other crystal clear portions of scripture which teach us how the church is built, and upon what foundation that it IS built... I tend to believe it... but hey... I COULD BE WRONG...

I'm done with this argument... both sides have been presented and I'm sure that others can draw their own opinions from the scriptures as well.

 

[Hismessenger]

Psa 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

1Sa 16:13 Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah.

Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
The Holy Spirit upon the scene

Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Christ upon the scene

Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

Mar 1:10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:

Luk 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

Jhn 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.

Now that we have established the presence of the Holy Spirit on earth before the day of Pentecost, maybe we can move on in truth..

Red Sea, a manifestation of the spirit. Burning bush, another manifestation of the spirit. Tongues of fire, another manifestation of the spirit. Walls of Jericho, another manifestation of the spirit. Need I go on.

Luk 4:1 And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,

hismessenger

 

[Ghost air]

Now that we have established the presence of the Holy Spirit on earth before the day of Pentecost, maybe we can move on in truth..

I doubt if there is anyone who WOULD deny that the Holy Spirit was on earth before Pentecost...

Just want to clear that up in case it's an honest mistake...

 

[Hismessenger]

Many believe that He didn't come until the day of Pentecost. We now know better than that.

hismessenger

 

[Ghost air]

Many believe that He didn't come until the day of Pentecost. We now know better than that.

hismessenger

Strange that nobody else on these boards seems to think that way... nobody that I recall anyway.