The Church is absolutely unnecessary.

SBC

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I hear you, but none of that indicates that the church, as an institution, is either unnecessary or useless.

And I agree, which is why I said, it absolutely IS necessary. :)

A man's life (his own blood life), is the challenge of BEING an earthly man.
It is KNOWLEDGE, (of God), that begins a man, to having Gods TRUTH.
It is UNDERSTANDING, (of God), that secures a man, to function in a CORRUPT World.

The WORLD, teaches SECULAR KNOWLEDGE, to seek it, grab hold of it, it is the TRUTH.
The WORLD, teaches SECULAR UNDERSTANDING, and IF you can grasp it, YOU SHALL have success; riches, fame, comfort, etc. IN THE WORLD....YOU SHALL BE "a HAVE"!
Overcoming from being "a HAVE NOT".

Problem with THAT TEACHING - is it OMITS -
Having Gods TRUTH, Gods UNDERSTANDING, Gods OVERCOMING the WORLD'S -
wickedness, evil, corruption, deception, lying, cheating, conniving, death, etc....

Which IS "the OFTEN the understanding" of the "secular understanding" of HOW ONE arrives at SUCCESS, of riches, fame, comfort, etc. (in the World).

It is all about an earthly man, Learning KNOWLEDGE, Coming into UNDERSTANDING,
and being able to delineate....BETWEEN....what IS Secular and Acceptable of the World,
and what IS Spiritual and Acceptable of God.

THAT ^ IS a man's struggle...UNTIL....He is steeped in Gods WAY....only then can a man, be able to STAND UP against and REJECT DARKNESS.

And the fact IS, every day more and more people are being born, beginning without knowledge and without understanding and without a history of experience. Thus, there will always be people, seeking Secular Knowledge and Understanding AND hopefully ALSO, Spiritual Knowledge and Understanding; and growing in Wisdom, to understand the difference, to WHICH, IMO, it is the Church that can be of a great resource to learn the Wisdom of that difference. :)

I think you and I rest in agreement.

God Bless,
SBC
 
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lee11

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hi

i wouldn't use such strong language as outside of those things, it is absolutely and utterly useless.

however i do understand your frustration and disappointment in the perception of the body of christ in comparison to maybe a more practical and supportive role.

remember each one of us are the tabernacle of God he resides in each one of us and then as believers we gather together to fellowship with one another.

maybe a more accurate term to describe our gatherings is fellowships(ping), so when we gather together we praise, worship, learn about the word encourage fellowship and renew our minds etc etc.

as believers we need food or mana to help us learn grow and transform etc as and our fellowships are responsible for providing different ministries and services to believers and to the community.

we might not agree like or support the different ministries or services they do or do not provide however it is our role as believers to support assist or at lest provide some feedback on what we believe may or may not help our fellowship.

the pattern on the OT and NT seems to be that believers always tried to gather together at some stage to reassure and support each other and separated themselves from non believers to maintain there relationship with God, each other and avoid pagan and worldly practices.

our fellowships are also resource centres and maybe they need more direction or ideas but its the flock that also contributes to the aim objectives and goals of the fellowship.

we might not like what we see today,but hey we are the light of the world and we do have the words to eternal life, so i think it is only fair that we support assist or at lest provide feedback to our oversight to inform them of other options that may serve the community in a more practical sense.

Peace
 
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Philip_B

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"We don't need the church" concept, not biblical.
I am far from convinced the statement measures up on inspection.

Matthew 18:20
For where two or three are gathered in my name, I am there among them.’

1 Corinthians 11:23-26
For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took a loaf of bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, ‘This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.’ In the same way he took the cup also, after supper, saying, ‘This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.’ For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.

Titus 1:5-9
I left you behind in Crete for this reason, that you should put in order what remained to be done, and should appoint elders in every town, as I directed you: someone who is blameless, married only once, whose children are believers, not accused of debauchery and not rebellious. For a bishop, as God’s steward, must be blameless; he must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or addicted to wine or violent or greedy for gain; but he must be hospitable, a lover of goodness, prudent, upright, devout, and self-controlled. He must have a firm grasp of the word that is trustworthy in accordance with the teaching, so that he may be able both to preach with sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict it.

Ephesians 5:18-21
Do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery; but be filled with the Spirit, as you sing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs among yourselves, singing and making melody to the Lord in your hearts, giving thanks to God the Father at all times and for everything in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ.

Matthew 18:17
If the member refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if the offender refuses to listen even to the church, let such a one be to you as a Gentile and a tax-collector.

1 Corinthians 14:26-27
What should be done then, my friends? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up.​

And I could go on.

The Church, for all the ways it has failed, for all it's failing and foilings, for all that is inefficient uncomfortable and unsuitable, is God's chosen method for his mission in the world. The gathered congregation is the basic building block. The three B's of being Christian are, Believe, Belong and Behave.

I believe that the evidence suggests that the concept of Church is entirely biblical.
 
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Devin P

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So far even among the more corrupt church, i have not seen an organized church yet that has not given to charity. If you know one, that you can name them in the post, and I will call them for you.

But know that our commission is to share the gospel and to make disciples. We give not to justify our faith or to brag on works, but through our faith and because of the love God show us, we show mercy on others. Mercy gives room for salvation, but mercy isn't salvation itself. Church giving to charities will help make it easier to know the love of God, and our heart should be not to make it hard, just as Jesus fed the multitude, but charity is not a sure way of " making a difference", showing mercy doesn't ensure their salvation. Jesus does. Give them water, but point them to Jesus that they may not ever thirst again. Make no mistake, there will be many that will cry out to God, "didn't I do this in your name?" and God will not recognize them in the end. There will be many who although receive sufficient grace and mercy from God and are given blessings, that will still reject the Giver.

"dignified social medium, more than nightclubs", such spite, I think my heart is grieving for you my brother, which church have wronged you? Who has discouraged you? Which man has deceived you into thinking that only charity will make a difference?
Spreading the gospel is only a positive when we're spreading the correct gospel. The gospel is that we will have eternal life with Jesus, reigning on earth for 1000 years, with new bodies that are incorruptible. That's the gospel. That through faith in Him and His sacrifice, we are grafted into the good olive tree (Israel) and are now God's children, brought into covenant. The gospel requires obedience to Torah however, it's not just, you once were sinning, now you have Jesus, so, keep on sinning, but, now with Jesus. No. It's you once were sinning, now you have Jesus, so do your best not to sin.

The doctrine that did away with Torah came from those that killed the apostles, and the earliest believers and followers of the Messiah. Gentiles, and Jews, there was no difference, they all kept Torah that believed on Him. Until laws were passed and decrees made that forced them to stop, or die. History is written by the victor, and the catholic church is the victor. The catholic church is where we get protestantism and baptists, every major denomination that we have today came from this. If you look back, whether at the NT, or at the history of it, the first followers of Jesus kept Torah. Not so they could be saved, but because they already were. Observance to Torah is the receipt for our salvation. Jesus giving Himself for us is the currency our salvation was bought with.
 
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David Kent

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The OP makes a point, as long as it is not taken too far. Look, some people are not able to go to church. First you have those way up in years, like age 90+. Then you have those with serious illnesses or physically handicapped. Finally you have some that are mentally or socially handicapped. To say that church attendance is essential to be a good Christian leaves these groups out in the dark.

We have a 90+ who has been attending our church but has recently been taken to hospital. She used to clean the church until well into her 80s. Over 30 years ago she had cancer and was given 6 months to live. She said that while she was in hospital she spent the whole time worrying about who would do her cleaning.

We have one new member who is severely physically handicapped he walks very slowly on two sticks, he has been disabled from birth.

I had an aunt who was severely disabled, she could not speak very well and was illiterate she had cerebral palsy and was disabled from birth. he attends more regularly than some members who are perfectly fit.

We know a US Baptist missionary who has been in France for over 30 years, For over 15 years he has been preaching from an electric wheelchair. He is in constant pain and has other health
problems. He may have to give up the ministry within months. About a year ago, he was asked why he didn't retire as he is over 70 and he replied that there was no one to take over the ministry.

My wife's former piano teacher used to lead an old ladies group at her church till she was 94 when she had a fall and broke her hip bone after a time in hospital she went into a home and her 'old ladies' used to come in on Thursday afternoons at the usual time and sing hymns with her.

We have a former builder who had an accident at work and is bent at the waist at about 90 degrees. He is not saved but attends church regularly.

Of course there are those who are not able to come. One lady is in a home and regularly visited. We also have services in two old people's homes, one most Wednesdays and the other monthly.
 
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rockytopva

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I believe hearing from God is a seven step process...

1. The Outer Court - Justification - Faith to enter in.
2. The Altar - Salvation by acknowledging and believing on Jesus
3. The Laver - The clean effects of sanctification.
4. Table of Showbread – Partaking of the Word of God.
5. Light at the Lightstand - Faith, hope, charity, joy, grace, spiritual fruit, etc.
6. The Golden Incense Altar - Prayer and Praise meetings.
7. The Holy of Holies - The Shekinah Glory and Baptism of the Holy Ghost.

And when Moses was gone into the tabernacle of the congregation to speak with him, then he heard the voice of one speaking unto him from off the mercy seat that was upon the ark of testimony, from between the two cherubims: and he spake unto him. - Numbers 7:89

It was in the Holy of Holies that God spoke to Moses. It is also the place where you can hear from him too.

But to journey on into the Holy of Holies you must do so with a congregation of people, called the church, otherwise you will remain in the flesh.

Temple_zps43c1911c.png
 
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salt-n-light

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I am far from convinced the statement measures up on inspection.

Matthew 18:20
For where two or three are gathered in my name, I am there among them.’

1 Corinthians 11:23-26
For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took a loaf of bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, ‘This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.’ In the same way he took the cup also, after supper, saying, ‘This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.’ For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.

Titus 1:5-9
I left you behind in Crete for this reason, that you should put in order what remained to be done, and should appoint elders in every town, as I directed you: someone who is blameless, married only once, whose children are believers, not accused of debauchery and not rebellious. For a bishop, as God’s steward, must be blameless; he must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or addicted to wine or violent or greedy for gain; but he must be hospitable, a lover of goodness, prudent, upright, devout, and self-controlled. He must have a firm grasp of the word that is trustworthy in accordance with the teaching, so that he may be able both to preach with sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict it.

Ephesians 5:18-21
Do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery; but be filled with the Spirit, as you sing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs among yourselves, singing and making melody to the Lord in your hearts, giving thanks to God the Father at all times and for everything in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ.

Matthew 18:17
If the member refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if the offender refuses to listen even to the church, let such a one be to you as a Gentile and a tax-collector.

1 Corinthians 14:26-27
What should be done then, my friends? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up.​

And I could go on.

The Church, for all the ways it has failed, for all it's failing and foilings, for all that is inefficient uncomfortable and unsuitable, is God's chosen method for his mission in the world. The gathered congregation is the basic building block. The three B's of being Christian are, Believe, Belong and Behave.

I believe that the evidence suggests that the concept of Church is entirely biblical.

I dont think you read the rest of the post, but even if you didn't i was saying that the concept that church is useless is unbiblical. I don't know if the structure of the sentence confused anyone, so just wanted to make it clear.

And amen, I'm right with you. :)
 
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faroukfarouk

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I dont think you read the rest of the post, but even if you didn't i was saying that the concept that church is useless is unbiblical. I don't know if the structure of the sentence confused anyone, so just wanted to make it clear.

And amen, I'm right with you. :)
I think also that in pragmatic North America a lot of ppl seem to feel free to make judgments about what is supposedly useful without necessarily discerning more deeply the essential aspects of glorifying God and being a faithful witness, that very much inform the true church's mission for Christ in a dark, unbelieving world.
 
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salt-n-light

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Spreading the gospel is only a positive when we're spreading the correct gospel. The gospel is that we will have eternal life with Jesus, reigning on earth for 1000 years, with new bodies that are incorruptible. That's the gospel. That through faith in Him and His sacrifice, we are grafted into the good olive tree (Israel) and are now God's children, brought into covenant. The gospel requires obedience to Torah however, it's not just, you once were sinning, now you have Jesus, so, keep on sinning, but, now with Jesus. No. It's you once were sinning, now you have Jesus, so do your best not to sin.

The doctrine that did away with Torah came from those that killed the apostles, and the earliest believers and followers of the Messiah. Gentiles, and Jews, there was no difference, they all kept Torah that believed on Him. Until laws were passed and decrees made that forced them to stop, or die. History is written by the victor, and the catholic church is the victor. The catholic church is where we get protestantism and baptists, every major denomination that we have today came from this. If you look back, whether at the NT, or at the history of it, the first followers of Jesus kept Torah. Not so they could be saved, but because they already were. Observance to Torah is the receipt for our salvation. Jesus giving Himself for us is the currency our salvation was bought with.

How is your message of "do your best not to sin" any different than that of the tone of the Torah? Where is grace? Where is the Holy Spirit?
 
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Devin P

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How is your message of "do your best not to sin" any different than that of the tone of the Torah? Where is grace? Where is the Holy Spirit?
Not so they could be saved, but because they already were. Observance to Torah is the receipt for our salvation. Jesus giving Himself for us is the currency our salvation was bought with.
 
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Devin P

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How is your message of "do your best not to sin" any different than that of the tone of the Torah? Where is grace? Where is the Holy Spirit?
There was always grace throughout the Torah. Always. Jesus didn't make God's grace. He made it known.

If the tone of grace wasn't all throughout the Torah, then Abraham wouldn't of been justified by faith, despite keeping the law Genesis 26:5
If the tone of grace wasn't all throughout the Torah, then Moses wouldn't of been able to spend 40 days and nights in the presence of our wonderful Creator
If the tone of grace wasn't all throughout the Torah, then none of the great men of faith (David, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, David, Jonah, Samson, etc.) wouldn't of existed. It's why David all throughout the psalms calls God and His Law, holy, perfect and merciful. God is only ungraceful towards those that didn't realize that He and He alone is who will justify them, not their practicing the law. David killed a woman's husband, so he could sleep with her, and God forgave him. How could this be so, if there wasn't grace? Paul Himself said that Jesus made known the grace of God, which He did. God was always merciful.

Jesus died to release us from the curse of the law of the adulterous bride that Israel broke (whoring out to other "gods"), keeping them (us) from the Creator forever. Until Jesus died, only Judah was able to come close to God, but now, by faith in Jesus, we all are able to become Israel, and all are able to approach Him on His Holy Throne.
 
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salt-n-light

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Not so they could be saved, but because they already were. Observance to Torah is the receipt for our salvation. Jesus giving Himself for us is the currency our salvation was bought with.

Yes, but I still don't get how thats different from the tone of the Torah. Because yes that would make Jesus our Savior, and out of respect, we follow the rules, but how is that making Him our Lord?

If we are still doing our best to not sin, that's still justifying salvation by works, how is He truly ruling our lives? Salvation is not only recognizing that you're saved, but its also baptism of the Holy Spirit, denying ourselves, knowing that we ourselves have no capacity to not sin on our own, but only through Jesus and His word, we are presented righteous.And the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is what gives us the strength and ability to overcome the very thing that we will still battle til the day we die, sin.That's making Jesus our Lord. We can't do our best to not sin, that's not making Jesus our Lord, and we don't have that capacity, we will always fall short on our own even after accepting salvation. That would make it no different than someone who is working to go to Heaven.
 
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kwame1

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The church is the being, the body, that is what God really wants(keep it holy so that he can live in it) but when believers gather to give praise and honor to Him that is where he becomes happy and content..
it took great multitude of Believers to march for the Jericho wall fall....there is power in numbers...why didn't they do it in turns..
 
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Devin P

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Yes, but I still don't get how thats different from the tone of the Torah. Because yes that would make Jesus our Savior, and out of respect, we follow the rules, but how is that making Him our Lord?

If we are still doing our best to not sin, that's still justifying salvation by works, how is He truly ruling our lives? Salvation is not only recognizing that you're saved, but its also baptism of the Holy Spirit, denying ourselves, knowing that we ourselves have no capacity to not sin on our own, but only through Jesus and His word, we are presented righteous.And the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is what gives us the strength and ability to overcome the very thing that we will still battle til the day we die, sin.That's making Jesus our Lord. We can't do our best to not sin, that's not making Jesus our Lord, and we don't have that capacity, we will always fall short on our own even after accepting salvation. That would make it no different than someone who is working to go to Heaven.
That's just it, you don't get it. There is no difference between the true gospel and the torah. They always conveyed the same message.

The only difference between the gospel and the torah, all throughout history, is the interpretation people have given them. A carnal mind, reads the torah and only sees death and destruction, a spiritual mind, sees life and grace. This is why, King David read the same exact torah that we have today (Torah = the first five books of our bible, and also the instruction portions of the last 4 books in the torah - Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy) and instead of seeing the hatred and hopeless death that most people have seen all throughout history, he saw a forgiving and loving God, whose law was proof of His forgiveness and love, not burden and hopelessness.

There is one difference however. The outpouring of His Holy Spirit on the world. Before Jesus died, and gave the spirit to the world in the way He did, the only way people could come to God, was through God's chosen (Israel or Judah).

Israel was divorced, and therefore people couldn't come through them, and Judah built walls, forbidding any "gentile" from coming to Him, even though the Torah encourages it. They still do it today, they're where we get the term "jew" from.

Look at Israel for example. Out of Israel, all of them, aside from very few people people (Moses, Joshua, Caleb, Aaron, etc.) lacked faith. They all thought that their salvation, and justification was based in them fulfilling the law perfectly. Those I mentioned however, knew that they weren't justified by the law. Their humility, and love, fear and trust in God, was what justified them.

My point is, all throughout the bible, we see a vast majority, lacking the truth of God's mercy, but the great men of faith, understanding this. This is why, when King David reigned, and he sinned horribly - remember, he literally killed a man for the man's wife - yet he was still forgiven. Why? Because, God's mercy always existed. Always, even before Jesus. It's why Abraham was justified by faith. It's why Moses, David, Aaron, and all of the Prophets were justified by faith, yet each person I mentioned, still kept and observed the law. Not for justification, not for salvation, but because it's what we're called to do. It's what God asks of us, and He in several ways, in several verses, continuously says, that His law isn't a burden, that it isn't too hard for us to do.

What was hard for us to do, was the law of sin and death. This law however, isn't God's holy law. It's the law of God, coupled with hundreds of other man-made laws. Basically, it's like (this is an example) knowing that God forbids eating pork, so your fellowship group makes additional laws saying that actually. Not only are we not to eat pork, but to be safe, we can't even ever touch pigs, nor anything they step on or eat. So, it went from, simply not eating pig, to something infinitely much harder. They'd do this with all of His laws, and it became impossible. Especially because when people would start doing well, they'd start to get high minded and think higher of themselves than they should have. Instead of 150-200 laws to follow like it is now, it became hundreds upon hundreds upon hundreds upon... you get my point. It became the burden that God said it wasn't. That which was possible, because of man, became impossible. It's impossible for us to perfectly keep the law, yes, but we strive to keep it not to be saved, but because the God that already has saved us, asks that we guard and keep it.
 
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DamianWarS

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The Church is absolutely unnecessary.



Hi everyone. I'd like to start a debate with regards to the necessity of church worship.

I am of the opinion that aside from enhancing your social life and having a sense of community, a church is absolutely useless. If a church becomes responsible for providing food for the needy and shelter from the homeless, then it's a different story. However, outside of those things, it is absolutely and utterly useless.

Sometime in the late medieval period, a group of Christians, who later became known as "mystics", absolutely rejected church worship and took to worshiping God their own way. This to me is brilliant. God, after all, is a personal God who resides in our hearts. There is no practical use for a church when it comes to salvation and fulfillment. It is nothing but just another business that employs people. All we really need is a Bible and our unwavering faith.

Your thoughts?

The Church is necessary. Our interpretation of the Church may not be.
 
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zelosravioli

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I understand that a social anxiety disorder would make fellowship difficult, don't give up, I believe God may send you someone whom you feel good around. I have had a mild social anxiety problem too (had a worse problem in past), yet God has developed me from being afraid to talk in a group to having been an instructor for over 30 adult students, and I love it. Still though I have difficulties sometimes. I imagine someone I have a hard time clicking with - I imagine them as a cousin or family member I like. I imagine someone I like being them - or imagine they are someone I like from history say Buzz Aldrin, Capt Kangaroo, Curly... I'm not saying this helps, its just my experience.
 
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