The Call by Pastor Rick Joyner?

[Presbyterian Continuist]

An interesting response:

I asked you to ask Jesus Christ for yourself, but there is nothing in the response about you doing that. So let us indeed look at a few things in the Scriptures.

Mat 17:5 … This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!

First - it say that who-so-ever believes in Him shall be saved. Is your faith in Him, since you show no signs of talk and hearing from Him, or is it in your knowledge of the Scriptures?

Jesus told the Jews that they searched the Scriptures thinking in them they had eternal life instead of coming to Him. I advised you to seek Him, like the Scriptures tell you, but you went back to the Scriptures, why?




urn to searching the Scriptures and leaning on their own understanding. So instead of seeking the Lord for information, they lean on their own understanding of the Scriptures.

What does it mean, "Because if he does deviate from the written Scriptures, then the voice that purported to be the voice of God told you a lie, and God does not lie."?

How do you know if he deviated from the written Scriptures if you are not hearing from the Spirit for the correct interpretation. Was that not exactly the same problem we see with the Pharisees and Sadducees. Many other Christians have clearly come into disagreement with you, as can be seen in the OP and by the popular following of Christians that Mr. Joyner has.

Again, you'd be wrong if you think I am truly one who follows his writings, but I am one who hears from the Lord and can testify to that. I am also one who did read, as instructed by the same One who first told me to read the Bible, some of Mr. Joyner's books. They clearly testified about the Lord Jesus Christ and about picking up visions, dreams, and communication from Him. That I have not seen in the last couple of posts. So, just based on that, who should I think is actually hearing the voice of the Lord. The one who writes about hearing His voice or the person who does not testify to Jesus Christ, but only to searching the Scriptures?

And what you don't know is that it was the Lord who told me to keep coming back because a post was made that He wanted a response given to. Seek the Lord Jesus Christ and His voice and I won't be asked to keep making these long post to get you to listen to Him. Or have you not read:

Mat 17:5 … This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!

Now above we see written "f you are not basing your view of Jesus as He is in the written Scriptures, then you don't know Him at all."

I would agree with that, so anyone not hearing from Him and testifying to that does not "know Him at all", because the Bible clearly has Him as someone we hear from.

Now above we read, "I am truly one who follows his writings" but His writing explain that we don't follow the writings but the Lord, and Him by hearing His voice. So anyone saying they follow His writings instead of following His voice like the writings explain, are not doing what is written in the Scriptures!!!

Jn 10:4 When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow because they know his voice.

So there was a mistake being made by the Jews, that we read about in the Scriptures, and that mistake is not following Him by hearing His voice!!

Jn 5:39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

So we don't "follow" the Scriptures. But rather we learn from the Scriptures that we follow the Lord Jesus Christ, and that by hearing His voice.

So I see where some are indeed not doing what the Scriptures have told them to do, in that they need to be listening to the Lord and doing what He asks of them, instead of leaning on their own understanding of the Scriptures.

Now, I have not read all that Mr. Joyner has written, and I have read anything of his for at least ten years now, but I never remember spotting such an obvious conflict with his writings and the Scriptures, as I just spotted. From what I remember he was trying to lead people to seeking communication from the Lord and he himself seemed to be trying to follow the Lord. As opposed to telling people to follow the Scriptures and lean on your own understanding of them.

Jesus told the Jews, Jn 5:46,47 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?

There is a difference, as seen in the above verse, between the writing and His words. The difference, is that His words are personal, spoken to you personally, so that you can follow Him by listening to His voice. The writings of Rick Joyner always gave me that impression, but some seem to obviously be searching the Scriptures thinking that in them they have eternal life. They write that they follow the Scriptures, showing that they don't follow the Lord Jesus Christ. That's a problem.

The only ones who received direct revelation from Jesus Himself were the Apostles, including Paul. These were the only ones who had witnessed the resurrected Christ. Even Paul, in Arabia, spent three years (the equivalent time the other Apostles spent with Jesus during His ministry), receiving direct revelation from Him. This direct revelation is set out in his letters to the churches. Everything that Jesus has said and is going to say is set out in the letters of Paul, Peter, John, Jude and the Apostle to the Hebrews. Therefore if we ask the Lord to speak to and guide us, the Holy Spirit will take us back to the letters of the Apostles. There is no new revelation outside of those letters.

If anyone does receive a revelation, it is always a new insight into what the Scriptures have already written. It is more of a clearer understanding and application to the believer.

Most, if not all the "new" revelation that has come through people like Rick Joyner are products of the imagination and out-of-context stretches of Scripture in order to give uninformed believers the impression that these preachers and teachers have a special ear to God that ordinary believers don't have. These uninformed believers then think that these special men and women are born again better than the ordinary "herd" and that God favours them over and above anyone else, and that they have a special measure of the Holy Spirit that ordinary folk don't have.

The truth is that we all drink of the same Spirit. No one person or group of "special" people have more of the Holy Spirit than anyone else. This is what Paul said to the Corinthian church when they were putting Peter, Paul, and Apollos up on pedestals and viewing them as special men superior than the ordinary believers. Paul challenged them by asking, "Who are Peter, Paul and Apollos? They are just ordinary men who enabled you to have faith in Christ" He also said that Apollos planted, and he watered, but the person who plants and waters are nothing, but it is God who gives the increase.

To apply this to people like Rick Joyner, these "big-name" preachers are nothing in the sight of God. They are just mouthpieces, used by God to enhance faith in Christ, nothing more. If they depart from the solid foundation of the written Scriptures and dispense "new" revelation, they cease to represent Christ. They are just representing themselves and they are teaching stuff that turns believers away from Christ to having more faith in themselves. Paul never did this. He wanted people to be followers of him, but only as he was a follower of Christ. Therefore, he taught only what Christ revealed to him during his three years in Arabia. It is all written in his letters to the churches. When he preached to the Bereans, they searched the Old Testament Scriptures to verify that what he was teaching was not "new" revelation, but revelation that was already contained in their written Old Testament Scriptures. In fact, everything that Paul set out in his letters to the churches can be found already written in the Old Testament, if one is prepared to dig in and find it.

 

[K2K]

The only ones who received direct revelation from Jesus Himself were the Apostles, including Paul.

Jn 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me, and I give them eternal life

Jn 10:16 I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and the will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd

Jn 8:47 He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God"

There is someone I hear. The first words I heard from Him were "Read Your Bible", but while those were the first it was only the beginning of a relationship that I have had with Him. He is my Lord; meaning He is regularly (everyday call 'Today') giving me instructions, teachings, wisdom, and I often hear Him tell me 'Karl, I love you".

Still He stands at the door and knocks and if anyone hears His voice and opens the door He will come in and eat with them. Still, maybe some don't believe they can get a direct revelation from Jesus Himself and don't open the door and hear His voice.

 

[K2K]

Welcome to the "hate Rick Joyner discussions" K2K

I started reading the Quest and The Call back in 2004. Just reading and trying to apply some of the principles elevated my spiritual understandings. What most Christians or supposed Christians don't seem to understand is that SCRIPTURE is the beginning and the foundations of God's Word. They don't understand that there is more, the "Manna from heaven". If we glorify The Father, Son and Holy Spirit then we are on the right track, if we glorify ourselves we are on the wrong track.

Good job here and hope you enjoy banging you head against the brick wall of religious theology.

Thank you for the 'welcome' I don't enjoy posting here as much as I should, but I get instructions.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Jn 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me, and I give them eternal life

Jn 10:16 I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and the will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd

Jn 8:47 He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God"

There is someone I hear. The first words I heard from Him were "Read Your Bible", but while those were the first it was only the beginning of a relationship that I have had with Him. He is my Lord; meaning He is regularly (everyday call 'Today') giving me instructions, teachings, wisdom, and I often hear Him tell me 'Karl, I love you".

Still He stands at the door and knocks and if anyone hears His voice and opens the door He will come in and eat with them. Still, maybe some don't believe they can get a direct revelation from Jesus Himself and don't open the door and hear His voice.

How do you know the instructions and guidance are coming from the real Jesus of the Bible and not some familiar spirit pretending to be Jesus?

 

[Curtis.Hilliker]

I read some Rick Joyner stuff, not sure if I got anything out of it : /

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I read some Rick Joyner stuff, not sure if I got anything out of it : /

What is needed is to be like the Bereans: Compare what he is saying with the Scriptures. When he quotes a verse of Scripture, examine the verse in its context (at least 5 verses before and after the verse). Is he reflecting the true meaning of the verse, or is he plucking it out of its context to prove a point?

Also, in terms of his claim to be prophetic, we must know the vast difference between Old Testament and New Testament prophecy. They are not the same. Old Testament prophecy was for the nation of Israel to mainly show that when they fall into idolatry, they will lose the presence and support of God, but when they repent, His presence with them will be restored. The prophecies concerning the pagan nations, are there to show how God is going to deal with them because of their evil deeds; and you will find upon examination of subsequent history, that every prophecy came true to the last detail.

But New Testament prophecy is there to point believers to Christ - and therefore is Christ-centred. It is not for the pagan nations at all. A good example of the prophetic for the body of Christ is the list of prophecies for the seven churches in Revelation. Even the whole book of Revelation has the overriding theme of the total victory of Christ over the world and the devil. It was written at a time when the church was going through the worst persecution and suffering ever. The church needed to know that in their present circumstances, they needed to know clearly that Jesus is and will be supreme!

Local church and personal prophecies should have the same theme - Jesus is supreme, and He loves us and will always be there for us no matter what our circumstances are. They are not to reveal sin or indications of judgment. They are there to encourage, comfort, build up and exhort the believers. They are there to show the testimony of Jesus, which is the spirit of prophecy.

I know that the Holy Spirit has come to convict the world of sin, righteousness and judgment to come, but He does not do that through prophecy. He does it through the preaching of the gospel, which is the real power of God to bring about salvation to those who believe it.

The big thing to consider is this: Who is being put up on pedestal - Rick Joyner or Jesus Christ? If Paul says that he, Peter and Apollos being planters and waterers in the church are nothing and that Jesus is the one who gives the increase, then if Rick or those who follow him think he is something, then are they not putting him before Christ? Paul says that he, Peter, and Apollos are just ones who are there to bring people to faith in Christ. So, if Charles Spurgeon quotes: "I'm just a poor sinner and nothing at all, but Jesus Christ is my all in all", then if people and Rick himself thinks he is more than that, then he is in error and is not following the real Jesus or preaching the true gospel. Therefore everything he does in the prophetic has to be suspect.

 

[Steven Beck]

What is needed is to be like the Bereans: Compare what he is saying with the Scriptures. When he quotes a verse of Scripture, examine the verse in its context (at least 5 verses before and after the verse). Is he reflecting the true meaning of the verse, or is he plucking it out of its context to prove a point?

Nah.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Nah.

So what are you saying? That believers shouldn't judge prophecies by Scripture, or that he isn't reflecting the true meaning of Scripture, or is that he isn't plucking verses out of context? Sounds like you are putting on a dollar each way.

 

[Steven Beck]

So what are you saying? That believers shouldn't judge prophecies by Scripture, or that he isn't reflecting the true meaning of Scripture, or is that he isn't plucking verses out of context? Sounds like you are putting on a dollar each way.

If you read scripture only in the context that you mentioned above then you will have a very shallow understanding of scripture. Scripture is the foundation and it is eternal. There are gems which can be dug out when you ask the Holy Spirit to reveal hidden meanings.

For example "Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,"

I quote that scripture to show people that we have the responsibility to choose life but I get people who say, "Moses was only talking to the Israelites, it is not relevant to us. Look at the context." Utter nonsense.

Revelation 2&3. If you read that in context then you will always pass it off as Jesus talking to those 7 church but scripture is eternal and it speaks to us on an individual level, corporate level and a time level. Me and you are one of those churches.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

If you read scripture only in the context that you mentioned above then you will have a very shallow understanding of scripture. Scripture is the foundation and it is eternal. There are gems which can be dug out when you ask the Holy Spirit to reveal hidden meanings.

For example "Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,"

I quote that scripture to show people that we have the responsibility to choose life but I get people who say, "Moses was only talking to the Israelites, it is not relevant to us. Look at the context." Utter nonsense.

Revelation 2&3. If you read that in context then you will always pass it off as Jesus talking to those 7 church but scripture is eternal and it speaks to us on an individual level, corporate level and a time level. Me and you are one of those churches.

If a person knows the written Scriptures, how they show God's plan of salvation and how they all point to Jesus in some way, then when a prophecy is given, it will be obvious whether that prophecy is consistent with the themes and direction of the written Scriptures.

For example: Hebrews 1 says that in past times God spoke through His prophets, but in these last days He speaks through His Son, whom He has made heir of all things. The Scripture says also that the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. Therefore if someone prophesies something that Jesus has already said, or is characteristic of Him and something He would say, then we could conclude that the prophecy is genuine. Also, if the prophecy is Christ-centred and testifies of Him in some way and gives Him the glory and not the man or woman who gives the prophecy, then we can have confidence in it.

But if someone takes on the ministry of Prophet and gives prophecies that are more akin to Old Testament prophecies, then he is false, because God does not speak through prophets in these last days, but through His Son Jesus Christ. And Jesus speaks through the agency of the Holy Spirit who indwells every believer, and that takes the place of any so called "prophet" who purports to speak on behalf of God, but who takes more glory to himself than to Christ.

 

[Steven Beck]

Eph 4:11 And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers,
Eph 4:12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ,
Eph 4:13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ,
Eph 4:14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes.

So you are saying that Paul is a liar and scripture cannot be trusted?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Eph 4:11 And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers,
Eph 4:12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ,
Eph 4:13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ,
Eph 4:14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes.

So you are saying that Paul is a liar and scripture cannot be trusted?

Paul was a unique Apostle of Christ, directly chosen and commissioned as the Apostle to the Gentiles by the Risen and Glorified Christ through an actual personal encounter. Then he spent three years in seclusion in Arabia receiving by direct revelation from Christ, the same training that Jesus gave the other Apostles during His three year ministry.

In this, he took over the prophetic function from the Old Testament prophets whose ministry ceased after John the Baptizer. The Apostles who contributed to the New Testament were the last to provide updated revelation by direct inspiration from Jesus Himself through the agency of the Holy Spirit. After that the canon of Scripture was closed.

Anyone after John, the last Apostle, who claims to speak by direct inspiration has to be speaking Scripture. So, for the Holy Spirit to speak directly to someone nowadays, He has to be updating the person on what He has already said in the written New Testament, or He is encouraging, comforting, and exhorting a believer on principles already set out in Scripture.

If the person is purporting to be getting new revelation directly from God that has not already been stated in the written Scripture, is adding to the Word of God, and therefore, according to Proverbs 30:6-7, is exposing himself as a liar and what he is prophesying is what he has dreamed up in his own head.

We can't compare Rick Joyner with Paul, because the former did not witness the resurrected Christ, and was not directly appointed through a personal appearance of Christ to him. Therefore he doesn't fit the criteria of being an Apostle of Christ qualified to received new direct revelation from God. He is not even an apostle of the church, because the majority of the body of Christ does not recognise him as such.

 

[Steven Beck]

Thanks for the gobbledegook I didn't ask for. I guess you didn't understand the question so let's try again.

Eph 4:11 And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers,
Eph 4:12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ,
Eph 4:13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ,
Eph 4:14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes.

Are you calling Paul a liar? Just to clarify Paul doesn't say anywhere that he is the last apostle nor there will be no more prophets. Scripture is ETERNAL and this is scripture. It was relevant before Paul wrote this, when he wrote it and after he wrote it until the end of the age. If you don't think it is relevant please submit the relevant scripture to disprove this and not just give men's opinions.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Thanks for the gobbledegook I didn't ask for. I guess you didn't understand the question so let's try again.

Eph 4:11 And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers,
Eph 4:12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ,
Eph 4:13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ,
Eph 4:14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes.

Are you calling Paul a liar? Just to clarify Paul doesn't say anywhere that he is the last apostle nor there will be no more prophets. Scripture is ETERNAL and this is scripture. It was relevant before Paul wrote this, when he wrote it and after he wrote it until the end of the age. If you don't think it is relevant please submit the relevant scripture to disprove this and not just give men's opinions.

My point is that God has said all He is going to say in the written Scriptures. If a prophecy does not reflect what has already been written, then it is mere dreamed-up nonsense and if the guy is saying that God told it to him, then he is deceived and listening to the wrong spirit.

 

[Steven Beck]

My point is that God has said all He is going to say in the written Scriptures. If a prophecy does not reflect what has already been written, then it is mere dreamed-up nonsense and if the guy is saying that God told it to him, then he is deceived and listening to the wrong spirit.

Your point is invalid. Do you know how many people prophesied that Donald Trump was going to be President of the USA in 2016? Heck even God told me when I asked 6 months prior to the November 2016 elections. Was that be in the bible? Why would God leave us in the dark concerning current events which directly effects HIS people and they are NOT in the bible.

You are no different from the majority of non spiritual Christians - you are afraid of the power of God and rightly so, I am also afraid of it but I still embrace it since it is the power of God which pushes back against the power of Satan. Yes, Satan has power and he is not afraid to use it especially through people who embrace Satan. Yet God's people are not willing to embrace God's power and make excuses on why God's power is invalid in these days.

The time is coming that excuses will not be enough.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Your point is invalid. Do you know how many people prophesied that Donald Trump was going to be President of the USA in 2016? Heck even God told me when I asked 6 months prior to the November 2016 elections. Was that be in the bible? Why would God leave us in the dark concerning current events which directly effects HIS people and they are NOT in the bible.

You are no different from the majority of non spiritual Christians - you are afraid of the power of God and rightly so, I am also afraid of it but I still embrace it since it is the power of God which pushes back against the power of Satan. Yes, Satan has power and he is not afraid to use it especially through people who embrace Satan. Yet God's people are not willing to embrace God's power and make excuses on why God's power is invalid in these days.

The time is coming that excuses will not be enough.

The gospel of Christ is the only real power of God. It works to get people saved. That is the whole ministry of the Holy Spirit who works through believers preaching and sharing the gospel. All other notions of power is imaginary.

Even if a prophecy comes to pass, it is no guarantee that it is of the Holy Spirit. A demonic spirit can do the same. Genuine prophecy is Christ-centred and its purpose is to turn the unsaved to having faith in Christ.

Rick Joyner and people like him are nothing and their prophecies are valueless because they glorify man instead of Christ. The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy, and that testimony involves Jesus dying on the cross and rising from the dead so that the unsaved can be converted and receive eternal life.

 

[Steven Beck]

The gospel of Christ is the only real power of God. It works to get people saved. That is the whole ministry of the Holy Spirit who works through believers preaching and sharing the gospel. All other notions of power is imaginary.

Even if a prophecy comes to pass, it is no guarantee that it is of the Holy Spirit. A demonic spirit can do the same. Genuine prophecy is Christ-centred and its purpose is to turn the unsaved to having faith in Christ.

Rick Joyner and people like him are nothing and their prophecies are valueless because they glorify man instead of Christ. The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy, and that testimony involves Jesus dying on the cross and rising from the dead so that the unsaved can be converted and receive eternal life.

And Sir that is your major problem, you focus on demons instead of on Christ.

The Spiritual life is a double edged sword. Satan counterfeits what our Lord does. God heals and Satan can heal, God prophesies and Satan prophesies etc. This is where discernment comes in. Can we be tricked by Satan? Well yes of course but not if we keep our eyes upon Jesus (remember that song?)

The Lord kept telling His people, "Do not be afraid." and John said, "Perfect love casts out all fear".
You are afraid of the demonic and power in general and it is holding you back from victory and freedom.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

And Sir that is your major problem, you focus on demons instead of on Christ.

The Spiritual life is a double edged sword. Satan counterfeits what our Lord does. God heals and Satan can heal, God prophesies and Satan prophesies etc. This is where discernment comes in. Can we be tricked by Satan? Well yes of course but not if we keep our eyes upon Jesus (remember that song?)

The Lord kept telling His people, "Do not be afraid." and John said, "Perfect love casts out all fear".
You are afraid of the demonic and power in general and it is holding you back from victory and freedom.

If you want to believe that, then be my guest!

 

[joshua 1 9]

Should Christians fight against fallen angels.... not each other?

I believe the atonement is two fold. Jesus died to reconcile us with the Father, but also to reconcile us with each other. Yet this is a paradox because He says: "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword". (Matthew 10:34) Paul explains this when he says: "No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval". (1Cor11:19)

 

[DennisTate]

And Sir that is your major problem, you focus on demons instead of on Christ.

The Spiritual life is a double edged sword. Satan counterfeits what our Lord does. God heals and Satan can heal, God prophesies and Satan prophesies etc. This is where discernment comes in. Can we be tricked by Satan? Well yes of course but not if we keep our eyes upon Jesus (remember that song?)

The Lord kept telling His people, "Do not be afraid." and John said, "Perfect love casts out all fear".
You are afraid of the demonic and power in general and it is holding you back from victory and freedom.

From what I have read and heard this is a very accurate approach!

I have heard of witches being sent into churches to do false speaking in tongues and actually curse everybody in church. A Pastor Bobby Conner spoke about this in one of his sermons that is on youtube.