The Book of Job Can't Be Literal

[Dale]

Stars fought in a battle against Sisera in the Old Testament.

I have checked this. The context is that during the time of the Judges the Prophetess Deborah commissioned Barak to lead the Israelites against Jabin, who was King of Canaan. Jabin's army was led by Sisera. The battle takes place in Judges Chapter 4 and Chapter 5 is devoted to a victory song.

“When you, Lord, went out from Seir,
when you marched from the land of Edom,
the earth shook, the heavens poured,
the clouds poured down water.
Judges 5:4 NIV

From the heavens the stars fought,
from their courses they fought against Sisera.
Judges 5:20 NIV

Both of these verses are part of the victory song. They describe the battle as Jews understood it at the time. Verse four tells us that it was raining. Verse twenty mentions stars favoring the Israelites. It is well known that the King of Canaan was better equipped for battle than the Israelites, having many horses and chariots. It is believed that the weather favored the Israelites. Sisera's war chariots may have been stuck in the mud.

In Chapter four we find:

15 And the Lord routed Sis′era and all his chariots and all his army before Barak at the edge of the sword; and Sis′era alighted from his chariot and fled away on foot.

Judges 4:15 RSV

John Gill's commentary on this verse tells us that Josephus, guided by Jewish traditions, says that there was both rain and hail, perhaps rain hard enough to virtually blind archers and other warriors.

"Josephus says there was a great tempest of rain and hail, and the wind blew the rain in their faces, which so blinded their eyes, that their slings and arrows were of no use to them; and they that bore armour were so benumbed, that they could not hold their swords. Something of this kind is intimated by Deborah in her song, ( Judges 5:20 ) ; and this was accompanied or followed by a slaughter."

In his commentary on Judges 5:20, John Gill says

" ... it seems as if it was in the night that this battle was fought, at least that the pursuit lasted till night, when the stars by their brightness and clear shining favoured the Israelites, and were greatly to the disadvantage of the Canaanites; unless it can be thought, as is by some, that the stars had an influence to cause a tempest of rain, hail, thunder, and lightnings, by which the army of Sisera was discomfited in the daytime, as before observed."

Gill believes that the mention of stars in Judges 5:20 means that the battle continued into the night, apparently favoring the Israelites. The ancient Israelites also seem to have believed that the stars had something to do with the weather. We know that the stars are too far away to have anything to do with wind, clouds, and rain, but the Israelites at the time of the Judges were not aware of this. In this light, the statement that "the stars fought" the army of Sisera probably means that the Israelites credited the stars with bringing rain and hail to blind and harass the enemy at a crucial time in battle.

The verse about stars in battle in Judges 5:20 is part of the victory song after the battle. The song remembers and interprets the event. While the Book of Judges gives the impression that the Israelites thought the stars had influence on the weather, it does not go out of its way to give human qualities to stars.

Links
Judges 4:15 - Commentary & Verse Meaning - Exposition of the Bible

Judges 5:20 - Commentary & Verse Meaning - Exposition of the Bible

 

[Dale]

Why not

If you are answering my first question, I explained that in the Original Post.

 

[d taylor]

Gill believes that the mention of stars in Judges 5:20 means that the battle continued into the night, apparently favoring the Israelites. The ancient Israelites also seem to have believed that the stars had something to do with the weather. We know that the stars are too far away to have anything to do with wind, clouds, and rain, but the Israelites at the time of the Judges were not aware of this. In this light, the statement that "the stars fought" the army of Sisera probably means that the Israelites credited the stars with bringing rain and hail to blind and harass the enemy at a crucial time in battle.

I guess this was a statement (in bold type) made by Mr Gill.
I see he (Mr Gill) seems to be influenced by science in his understanding of Gods creation.
But if Mr Gill would read the Bible without science influencing his reading. He would see that in the Bible the stars are local above the earth (along with the sun and moon) where God placed them in the raqia in Genesis 1 and not to far away as he states.

 

[Dale]

I guess this was a statement (in bold type) made by Mr Gill.
I see he (Mr Gill) seems to be influenced by science in his understanding of Gods creation.
But if Mr Gill would read the Bible without science influencing his reading. He would see that in the Bible the stars are local above the earth (along with the sun and moon) where God placed them in the raqia in Genesis 1 and not to far away as he states.

Just so you can place John Gill, he was born in 1691 and died in 1771. He died before the American Revolution. His commentaries are well known.

John Gill was certainly unfamiliar with science as we know it today, yet you say that is too much concerned with science.

The words you put in bold were my words, not John Gill's.

 

[d taylor]

Just so you can place John Gill, he was born in 1691 and died in 1771. He died before the American Revolution. His commentaries are well known.

John Gill was certainly unfamiliar with science as we know it today, yet you say that is too much concerned with science.

The words you put in bold were my words, not John Gill's.

I stated that again, because i read it thinking that was a statement he made.

So your are the one too influenced/blinded by science to truly see God description of His creation in the Bible. Not to worry the world of Christianity is full of science blinded believers.

 

[Dale]

I stated that again, because i read it thinking that was a statement he made.

So your are the one too influenced/blinded by science to truly see God description of His creation in the Bible. Not to worry the world of Christianity is full of science blinded believers.

The Bible is not a textbook of science, geography or history.

The Bible is a handbook for morality and salvation.

 

[d taylor]

The Bible is not a textbook of science, geography or history.

The Bible is a handbook for morality and salvation.

Science has forced that hand of christians, to compromise the truthful descriptions given in the Bible about Gods creation. And what you have stated is a common statement made by many christians simply because they are believing man over parts of the Bible especially in descriptive areas of Gods creation.
A fine example is the account of the sun and moon stopping in Joshua 10.

There no reason in the Bible given any where to not take that account in Joshua as the way it is stated in Joshua 10. But people do not take the account as given because of science.

 

[grasping the after wind]

Not understanding something does not mean it is to be taken symbolic.

Does not understanding something mean it is to be taken literally?

 

[grasping the after wind]

Let's take something literally.
Genesis 3
22 And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” .

With this taken literally, what would have been the case had Adam either gotten a bite of the fruit of the tree of life before the LORD God got around to kicking him out of Eden or prior to him eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge? The context and wording seem to suggest the LORD God was concerned that Adam had "become like one of us" and that it would be a bad thing outside of the LORD God's control if he got hold of that other fruit because he would be "like one of us." and live forever.

 

[hedrick]

The OP seems to be stating the obvious. My guess: someone took a folk tale about Job, and used it as the frame for serious reflections about evil. I certainly hope no one thinks God would actually allow Satan to attack someone to settle a bet. I am not trying to discredit Job. It's an important book. But its importance is not in the historical accuracy of the first two chapters.

 

[Not David]

Let's take something literally.
Genesis 3
22 And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” .

With this taken literally, what would have been the case had Adam either gotten a bite of the fruit of the tree of life before the LORD God got around to kicking him out of Eden or prior to him eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge? The context and wording seem to suggest the LORD God was concerned that Adam had "become like one of us" and that it would be a bad thing outside of the LORD God's control if he got hold of that other fruit because he would be "like one of us." and live forever.

Taking it literally means that there was a real Adam who fell

 

[Dale]

One of the reasons I am concerned about a literal interpretation of the Book of Job is that Revelation says that Jesus is the Morning Star. Second Peter hints at the same thing, that Jesus is the Morning Star. Yet in Job, all angels are morning stars.

This might not make any difference if everyone realizes that terms and phrases can have various meanings in different parts of the Bible, in different contexts. I have heard conservative ministers say that when a word appears early in the Bible, it always means the same thing in later books of the Bible. I don't believe this works.

16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”
Revelation 22:16 NIV

19 We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.
2 Peter 1:19 NIV

6 On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone—
7 while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels[a] shouted for joy?
Job 38:6-7 NIV
a Job 38:7 Hebrew the sons of God

 

[Dale]

Humans are so handicapped by our logic and reason - as if we have seen the cosmos from its beginning, and we know all possibilities in life.

We waste so much time telling our race what we cannot do when the Word of God Himself has told us that we will do exploits on par or "greater" than Him.

Why are singing stars far-fetched If you believe the Savior cast out literal demons, and literally resurrected from the dead? Or, do we believe that?

As far as "sons of God", in Hebrew it is CLEAR that these entities are angels, not human. All humans are sons or daughters of men (like The Redeemer), and Seth. But, only TWO humans were ever called "b"'nai elohiym": Yeshoshuah aka the Word of God/Redeemer/Christ, and Adam. Adam 1 lost his designation as a son of God before he had Seth, so Genesis 6 isn't about the children of Seth: it is about fallen entities whose titles are, by consequence of designation, sons of God. However, the genaology of Christ names Adam as a son of God.


Instead of trying to calibrate a spiritual phenomenon to what science says is possible, we should try to see why your book is limited in its details. Search out why someone would, historically, destroy or remove books and make the spiritual decision for the layperson. Find out why a system within a spiritual faith exists. We were charged with receiving and abiding by the New Covenant if we want to be children of the Most High God, which says we will have His Law on our hearts and minds so much that we will not need to ask our neighbor who He is: we will know. That means we can't let very easy, accessible carnality distract us from the Truth.

People aren't suffering from too much logic. Most of the people I know are suffering from no logic.

When say that people are too logical you are starting to sound like the New Agers.

 

[Dale]

Someone living 180 years is more believable than someone who resurrected from the dead in my opinion.

By "someone who resurrected from the dead" I assume that you mean the resurrection of Jesus Christ in the Gospels. You are the only one on this thread who has raised that question. No one else has questioned anything in the New Testament.

 

[Dale]

Science has forced that hand of christians, to compromise the truthful descriptions given in the Bible about Gods creation. And what you have stated is a common statement made by many christians simply because they are believing man over parts of the Bible especially in descriptive areas of Gods creation.
A fine example is the account of the sun and moon stopping in Joshua 10.

There no reason in the Bible given any where to not take that account in Joshua as the way it is stated in Joshua 10. But people do not take the account as given because of science.

On the subject of Joshua stopping the sun, I did a thread on that earlier this year.

Did Joshua Stop the Sun?

Discussion in 'Creation & Theistic Evolution' started by Dale, Jan 20, 2019.


Link:
Did Joshua Stop the Sun?

 

[Kaon]

People aren't suffering from too much logic. Most of the people I know are suffering from no logic.

When say that people are too logical you are starting to sound like the New Agers.

Maybe to you they sound like new-agers, but new-agers aren't illogical entities that float on a whim of mystic wonder and intuition. Part of the logic that handicaps people is believing that other schools of thought are inferior to the academic school of thought. Logic isn't good or bad; it is a construction of man. Reason is a man-made mechanism for exploiting logic and applying it to observations.

People are *too* logical only when they scoff and reject what they believe to be possible and probably given the abysmal parameters of human logic and reasoning. It is arrogance, folly and self-deception to believe one has a full view of reality by keeping the illogical and unreasonable boxed in an intellectual archive. It is why humans today are easily controlled, easily mislead and easily manipulated into promoting evil.

The "most logical" of us are supremely open to exploitation of that alleged logic and reason often unwittingly. It is a psychological handicap because it blinds the person, and skews reality as a whole.

Of course, your logical mind might see it as bull, and you may reason that I am a nutter. This is the responsibility of a sovereign adult mind under the Most High God - to judge and discern things correctly.

 

[Kaon]

By "someone who resurrected from the dead" I assume that you mean the resurrection of Jesus Christ in the Gospels. You are the only one on this thread who has raised that question. No one else has questioned anything in the New Testament.

I brought that up because, to me, it is asinine to be a Christian and have problems with advanced ages, when RESURRECTION is much more problematic scientifically. Are we going to believe what is literally in the canon, or are we going to make logical excuses for the spiritual information we receive in the canon - no matter how repetitive and direct the message is?

Yet, Christians are too afraid to believe angels mated with humans, that demons exist or that humans lived hundreds of years - but they claim to believe a man resurrected from the dead? All of this can be directly found in the bible canon. This is a result of logic and reason handicap (and therefore dogma); specifically, the brain must work overtime (introducing alleged contradictions and paradoxes) to convince one's self that their spiritual belief can be aligned with their logical mind. It is why so many people with one foot in spirit and one foot in the world go along rejecting spirituality, misunderstanding it, or treating it like a prop.

Logic and reason handicap people so much, they have become immune to the sinusoidal troughs and crests in knowledge: the frequency, amplitude and how to predict the patterns of exploration by logic are lost on the logical, reasonable, or even "woke" mind. All three aforementioned are psychological distractions that are meant to give people false senses of intellectual security.

But, you are an adult; it is your choice what to believe and entertain at the end. I cannot "convince" you of, or "prove" anything to your sovereign, adult mind.

 

[grasping the after wind]

Taking it literally means that there was a real Adam who fell

Taking things literally means one doesn't get to cherry pick what is taken literally.

 

[d taylor]

I brought that up because, to me, it is asinine to be a Christian and have problems with advanced ages, when RESURRECTION is much more problematic scientifically. Are we going to believe what literally in the canon, or are we going to make logical excuses for the spiritual information we receive in the canon - no matter how repetitive and direct the message is?

Yet, Christians are too afraid to believe angels mated with humans, that demons exist or that humans lived hundreds of years - but they claim to believe a man resurrected from the dead? All of this can be directly found in the bible canon. This is a result of logic and reason handicap (and therefore dogma); specifically, the brain must work overtime (introducing alleged contradictions and paradoxes) to convince one's self that their spiritual belief can be aligned with their logical mind. It is why so many people with one foot in spirit and one foot in the world go along rejecting spirituality, misunderstanding it, or treating it like a prop.

Logic and reason handicap people so much, they have become immune to the sinusoidal troughs and crests in knowledge: the frequency, amplitude and how to predict the patterns of exploration by logic are lost on the logical, reasonable, or even "woke" mind. All three aforementioned are psychological distractions that are meant to give people false senses of intellectual security.

But, you are an adult; it is your choice what to believe and entertain at the end. I cannot "convince" you of, or "prove" anything to your sovereign, adult mind.

It is the age of pick what you want to believe from the Bible, as long as it supports what they and science decided it should be.

 

[Kaon]

It is the age of pick what you want to believe from the Bible, as long as it supports what they and science decided it should be.

Then someone who picks what is valid in their belief system does not subscribe to the Most High God is saying, as it were, in spirit. That person is a researcher calibrating academic knowledge to anthropological (Hebrew culture) and religious studies.

Either we have a relationship with the Most High God, or we have a relation with the pursuit and academic odyssey of what we have in our minds is the Most High God. There is no lukewarm alignment when it comes to gods, or the Most High God. And, remember that despite what academia has said in its post-enlightenment vigor, there are still people who take the Most High God seriously - who pass down the Truth to their children, who pass it down to their children. Even in an age of deceptions through appeals to intellect and ego, one can still know the Truth about their Creator.

There is also the aspect of the Holy Spirit directly teaching, leading and guiding people to the Truth - something Christians also forget is in action. By the New Covenant, none of us need a canon or another human to tell us about the Most High God because He will put His Law and His Statutes on the hearts and minds of His people so that they won't ever have to ask their neighbor who He is - they will know.



People lie, including (and especially) academics. Intelligence has been marketed as a comforter to the masses, when it is actually a handicap. Wisdom will always be better than intellect, because wisdom will actually get you to Point B. You can be a cosmic genius and still be spiritual dead as a doorknob - running to and fro trying to find immortality in some way or another.