The Book of Job Can't Be Literal

Dale

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Some of the worst theology I've ever seen comes from a literal reading of the Book of Job.

Job is the only book in the Bible where angels are called "sons of God." Many Christians today would consider that to be blasphemous. It is also the only book in the Bible that identifies angels with stars in the sky.

Angels are "sons of God" and Satan comes among them in Job 1:6, and again in Job 2:1. Again, in Job 38, when God is speaking from the whirlwind:

6 On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone—
7 while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels[a] shouted for joy?
Job 38:6-7 NIV
a Job 38:7 Hebrew the sons of God

Here angels and stars are one and the same, and they sing. The Book of Job gives human characteristics to stars.

Even more extraordinary is the picture of Satan in heaven advising God on how to deal with individual mortals. How does this fit with standard theology, where Lucifer was expelled from heaven, and became Satan, before the foundation of the world?

In Job 1:16, Satan rains down fire from heaven to destroy Job's sheep. In no other book of the Bible does Satan ever exercise such power. In all the prayers in the Bible not once does anyone pray to God to be protected from Satan's power to do physical harm.

16 While he was still speaking, another messenger came and said, “The fire of God fell from the heavens and burned up the sheep and the servants, and I am the only one who has escaped to tell you!”
Job 1:16 NIV

What is meant by the fire of God? In John Gill's commentary, he acknowledges that this is a most extraordinary event and concludes that the "fire of God" is lightning.

"... this being such a fire as was never known, since the fire that came down from heaven and destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities of the plain. I am inclined to think it was a prodigious flash or flashes of lightning; for as thunder is the voice of God, so lightning, which accompanies it, may be called the fire of God; and this agrees with the phraseology of the passage; it comes from heaven, or the air, and falls upon the earth, and strikes creatures and things in it ..."

In no other passage in the Bible does Satan have the power to unleash lightning, a God-like power. The only possible explanation for this is that God gave Satan permission to harm Job's possessions.

12 The Lord said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your power, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.” Job 1: 12 NIV

Yet, even with God's permission, where does Satan get the power to control the elements? Where does he get power over nature and also over human events?

One answer:
"The Satan of the Prologue, who makes the wager with Yahweh, is masterfully individualized, not as the malignant tempter and enemy of mankind, but as a spirit compact of impudent skepticism, who can appreciate no motive beyond self-advantage."

This quote comes from a lengthy article in the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia. In most of the Bible, Satan is the Adversary, the enemy of God and of God's people. In the Book of Job, however, Satan is something different. Here Satan is a narrow-minded skeptic and a loose canon but he is not the Adversary as he is in many parts of the Bible.

The Book of Job is a story composed to make a point. It has survived because it is a powerful statement about human suffering. Why is there so much suffering? Why does a good man, or a good person, have to suffer? Satan in the book of Job is a literary construct used to make a point about our relationship to God in a world full of suffering. To take this version of Satan and his actions in this book as literal fact is to make a serious error.

Scholars are not certain that the Book of Job was composed by a Jew. Many scholars believe that it was written by an Edomite. Maybe it was composed by an Edomite who was knowledgeable about Judaism.

Is it possible to make a literal interpretation of Job that makes sense? Not really. One reason for this is the length of Job's life. At the end of the Book of Job we find:

After this, Job lived a hundred and forty years; he saw his children and their children to the fourth generation. 17 And so Job died, an old man and full of years.
Job 42: 16-17 NIV

Job appears to be forty or even fifty when the story opens. His children are adults with homes of their own. His parents aren't mentioned so it looks like they have passed away. If Job is forty or fifty at the beginning of the story, and he lives 140 years afterward, he must be 180 or 190 when he dies. This doesn't sound realistic. Creationists may say that Job is one of the patriarchs of the antediluvian era, before the Flood.

Job makes a burnt offering at his home for the safety of his sons but there is no mention of him going to the Temple or the Tabernacle. Some might see this as a sign that Job lived before the Flood, when there was no Temple or Tabernacle. It could also mean that the author is not a Jew, although he holds some ideas and customs in common with Judaism. In the end, the notion that the Book of Job is a pre-Flood story doesn't hold up.

There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job...
Job 1:1 NIV

The "land of Uz" may not mean anything to the average reader today, but it is an actual place. It was a lightly populated area in the Israelite kingdom, far from Jerusalem and it bordered Edom. Again, scholars have always been puzzled over whether Job was written, or composed, by a Jew or an Edomite.

Job's possessions are attacked by Sabeans and Chaldeans in Job 1:14-17. These were actual peoples at the time of David and Solomon. Job could not be a long-lived antediluvian patriarch and be attacked by peoples that were around between 1000 BC and 500 BC.

The only interpretation that holds up is that the Book of Job is not literal, it is a story exploring human suffering in the light of an all-powerful God. Job's fall from health, respect and prosperity and its later restoration are too abrupt to be the life of a real man. The Book of Job can be read as an exhortation to carry on in times of great suffering. It is an exhortation to trust God and maintain hope that in the end God will reward the just. Just don't take it as a literal story about angels and demons.



Link to John Gill's commentary
Job 1:16 - Commentary & Verse Meaning - Exposition of the Bible

Link to International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
Job, Book of in the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia.
Under "Characters and Motive"
 

pdudgeon

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That's a long post, but I'll give it a try.
Angels as sons of God: Yes they are, in the sense that they were created before the Earth began by God.

They differ from Jesus, in that while the angels were created, Jesus was begotten.
So the angels are sons (small "s") of God, while Jesus is the begotten Son of God.

Yes, angels sing and so do stars. But stars sing in electrical sound waves, whereas angels sing like humans.

Lucifer is a fallen angel, fallen from heaven. But he still has access to the ear of God, because he is "the accuser of the brethren" (think of a prosecuting atty, determined to prove our guilt before the throne of God.) Satan will have that privilege until he is defeated by Christ, and cast in chains into Hell forever, (along with his demons) at the End of the Age.

It is true that no one in the bible prays for protection from satan, because he is allowed by God to have full access to men until the end of the age. But there are prayers that God would rebuke satan.
 
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Kaon

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Humans are so handicapped by our logic and reason - as if we have seen the cosmos from its beginning, and we know all possibilities in life.

We waste so much time telling our race what we cannot do when the Word of God Himself has told us that we will do exploits on par or "greater" than Him.

Why are singing stars far-fetched If you believe the Savior cast out literal demons, and literally resurrected from the dead? Or, do we believe that?

As far as "sons of God", in Hebrew it is CLEAR that these entities are angels, not human. All humans are sons or daughters of men (like The Redeemer), and Seth. But, only TWO humans were ever called "b"'nai elohiym": Yeshoshuah aka the Word of God/Redeemer/Christ, and Adam. Adam 1 lost his designation as a son of God before he had Seth, so Genesis 6 isn't about the children of Seth: it is about fallen entities whose titles are, by consequence of designation, sons of God. However, the genaology of Christ names Adam as a son of God.


Instead of trying to calibrate a spiritual phenomenon to what science says is possible, we should try to see why your book is limited in its details. Search out why someone would, historically, destroy or remove books and make the spiritual decision for the layperson. Find out why a system within a spiritual faith exists. We were charged with receiving and abiding by the New Covenant if we want to be children of the Most High God, which says we will have His Law on our hearts and minds so much that we will not need to ask our neighbor who He is: we will know. That means we can't let very easy, accessible carnality distract us from the Truth.
 
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eleos1954

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Some of the worst theology I've ever seen comes from a literal reading of the Book of Job.

Job is the only book in the Bible where angels are called "sons of God." Many Christians today would consider that to be blasphemous. It is also the only book in the Bible that identifies angels with stars in the sky.

Angels are "sons of God" and Satan comes among them in Job 1:6, and again in Job 2:1. Again, in Job 38, when God is speaking from the whirlwind:

6 On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone—
7 while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels[a] shouted for joy?
Job 38:6-7 NIV
a Job 38:7 Hebrew the sons of God

Here angels and stars are one and the same, and they sing. The Book of Job gives human characteristics to stars.

Even more extraordinary is the picture of Satan in heaven advising God on how to deal with individual mortals. How does this fit with standard theology, where Lucifer was expelled from heaven, and became Satan, before the foundation of the world?

In Job 1:16, Satan rains down fire from heaven to destroy Job's sheep. In no other book of the Bible does Satan ever exercise such power. In all the prayers in the Bible not once does anyone pray to God to be protected from Satan's power to do physical harm.

16 While he was still speaking, another messenger came and said, “The fire of God fell from the heavens and burned up the sheep and the servants, and I am the only one who has escaped to tell you!”
Job 1:16 NIV

What is meant by the fire of God? In John Gill's commentary, he acknowledges that this is a most extraordinary event and concludes that the "fire of God" is lightning.

"... this being such a fire as was never known, since the fire that came down from heaven and destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities of the plain. I am inclined to think it was a prodigious flash or flashes of lightning; for as thunder is the voice of God, so lightning, which accompanies it, may be called the fire of God; and this agrees with the phraseology of the passage; it comes from heaven, or the air, and falls upon the earth, and strikes creatures and things in it ..."

In no other passage in the Bible does Satan have the power to unleash lightning, a God-like power. The only possible explanation for this is that God gave Satan permission to harm Job's possessions.

12 The Lord said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your power, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.” Job 1: 12 NIV

Yet, even with God's permission, where does Satan get the power to control the elements? Where does he get power over nature and also over human events?

One answer:
"The Satan of the Prologue, who makes the wager with Yahweh, is masterfully individualized, not as the malignant tempter and enemy of mankind, but as a spirit compact of impudent skepticism, who can appreciate no motive beyond self-advantage."

This quote comes from a lengthy article in the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia. In most of the Bible, Satan is the Adversary, the enemy of God and of God's people. In the Book of Job, however, Satan is something different. Here Satan is a narrow-minded skeptic and a loose canon but he is not the Adversary as he is in many parts of the Bible.

The Book of Job is a story composed to make a point. It has survived because it is a powerful statement about human suffering. Why is there so much suffering? Why does a good man, or a good person, have to suffer? Satan in the book of Job is a literary construct used to make a point about our relationship to God in a world full of suffering. To take this version of Satan and his actions in this book as literal fact is to make a serious error.

Scholars are not certain that the Book of Job was composed by a Jew. Many scholars believe that it was written by an Edomite. Maybe it was composed by an Edomite who was knowledgeable about Judaism.

Is it possible to make a literal interpretation of Job that makes sense? Not really. One reason for this is the length of Job's life. At the end of the Book of Job we find:

After this, Job lived a hundred and forty years; he saw his children and their children to the fourth generation. 17 And so Job died, an old man and full of years.
Job 42: 16-17 NIV

Job appears to be forty or even fifty when the story opens. His children are adults with homes of their own. His parents aren't mentioned so it looks like they have passed away. If Job is forty or fifty at the beginning of the story, and he lives 140 years afterward, he must be 180 or 190 when he dies. This doesn't sound realistic. Creationists may say that Job is one of the patriarchs of the antediluvian era, before the Flood.

Job makes a burnt offering at his home for the safety of his sons but there is no mention of him going to the Temple or the Tabernacle. Some might see this as a sign that Job lived before the Flood, when there was no Temple or Tabernacle. It could also mean that the author is not a Jew, although he holds some ideas and customs in common with Judaism. In the end, the notion that the Book of Job is a pre-Flood story doesn't hold up.

There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job...
Job 1:1 NIV

The "land of Uz" may not mean anything to the average reader today, but it is an actual place. It was a lightly populated area in the Israelite kingdom, far from Jerusalem and it bordered Edom. Again, scholars have always been puzzled over whether Job was written, or composed, by a Jew or an Edomite.

Job's possessions are attacked by Sabeans and Chaldeans in Job 1:14-17. These were actual peoples at the time of David and Solomon. Job could not be a long-lived antediluvian patriarch and be attacked by peoples that were around between 1000 BC and 500 BC.

The only interpretation that holds up is that the Book of Job is not literal, it is a story exploring human suffering in the light of an all-powerful God. Job's fall from health, respect and prosperity and its later restoration are too abrupt to be the life of a real man. The Book of Job can be read as an exhortation to carry on in times of great suffering. It is an exhortation to trust God and maintain hope that in the end God will reward the just. Just don't take it as a literal story about angels and demons.

Link to John Gill's commentary
Job 1:16 - Commentary & Verse Meaning - Exposition of the Bible

Link to International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
Job, Book of in the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia.
Under "Characters and Motive"

The account of Job is mainly centered on the importance of having faith in God no matter how dire our circumstances might be.

Also, what is learned ... is our knowledge and understanding of the magnatude of God is beyond our comprehension ... with yourself being a stark example of that.

Go read Job, Chapter 38 in it's entirety ... the Lord has a special message in it for you.

May the Lord give you understanding ... in Jesus name Amen.
 
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Dale

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That's a long post, but I'll give it a try.
Angels as sons of God: Yes they are, in the sense that they were created before the Earth began by God.

They differ from Jesus, in that while the angels were created, Jesus was begotten.
So the angels are sons (small "s") of God, while Jesus is the begotten Son of God.

Yes, angels sing and so do stars. But stars sing in electrical sound waves, whereas angels sing like humans.

Lucifer is a fallen angel, fallen from heaven. But he still has access to the ear of God, because he is "the accuser of the brethren" (think of a prosecuting atty, determined to prove our guilt before the throne of God.) Satan will have that privilege until he is defeated by Christ, and cast in chains into Hell forever, (along with his demons) at the End of the Age.

It is true that no one in the bible prays for protection from satan, because he is allowed by God to have full access to men until the end of the age. But there are prayers that God would rebuke satan.





Hello, Pdudgeon. I don't think I've met you on CF before.

Pdudgeon: "Lucifer is a fallen angel, fallen from heaven. But he still has access to the ear of God, because he is "the accuser of the brethren" (think of a prosecuting atty, determined to prove our guilt before the throne of God.)"

I'm not sure that is true. In John, Jesus says to the Pharisees:

45 Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; it is Moses who accuses you, on whom you set your hope.
John 5:45 RSV

I think what Jesus means here is that the Pharisees are accused by the Law which they practice. The Law itself will be their accuser because they do not practice what they preach. From this it is clear that God doesn't need anyone to act as prosecutor.
 
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redleghunter

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It is true that no one in the bible prays for protection from satan, because he is allowed by God to have full access to men until the end of the age. But there are prayers that God would rebuke satan.
Satan can no longer accuse those in Christ Jesus.
 
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com7fy8

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The account of Job is mainly centered on the importance of having faith in God no matter how dire our circumstances might be.

Also, what is learned ... is our knowledge and understanding of the magnatude of God is beyond our comprehension
I see how Job got nowhere until Jesus got through to him.

And if we bring our own motives into how we see God's word, where will our own motives take us?
 
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Dale

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Humans are so handicapped by our logic and reason - as if we have seen the cosmos from its beginning, and we know all possibilities in life.

We waste so much time telling our race what we cannot do when the Word of God Himself has told us that we will do exploits on par or "greater" than Him.

Why are singing stars far-fetched If you believe the Savior cast out literal demons, and literally resurrected from the dead? Or, do we believe that?

As far as "sons of God", in Hebrew it is CLEAR that these entities are angels, not human. All humans are sons or daughters of men (like The Redeemer), and Seth. But, only TWO humans were ever called "b"'nai elohiym": Yeshoshuah aka the Word of God/Redeemer/Christ, and Adam. Adam 1 lost his designation as a son of God before he had Seth, so Genesis 6 isn't about the children of Seth: it is about fallen entities whose titles are, by consequence of designation, sons of God. However, the genaology of Christ names Adam as a son of God.


Instead of trying to calibrate a spiritual phenomenon to what science says is possible, we should try to see why your book is limited in its details. Search out why someone would, historically, destroy or remove books and make the spiritual decision for the layperson. Find out why a system within a spiritual faith exists. We were charged with receiving and abiding by the New Covenant if we want to be children of the Most High God, which says we will have His Law on our hearts and minds so much that we will not need to ask our neighbor who He is: we will know. That means we can't let very easy, accessible carnality distract us from the Truth.


Kaon: "Why are singing stars far-fetched If you believe the Savior cast out literal demons, and literally resurrected from the dead?"

It's not a question of "singing stars" being far-fetched. It is significant that there are no singing stars anywhere in the OT or anywhere in the Bible. Genesis says that God created stars and says that they are for "signs and seasons." Genesis doesn't humanize stars. In the OT, stars are sometimes referred to because they are numerous, as in "countless as the stars." Outside of that, the one thing the prophets have to say about stars is that they ARE NOT TO BE WORSHIPPED.

Kaon: "Instead of trying to calibrate a spiritual phenomenon to what science says is possible ..."

I've said nothing about science in this thread.

Kaon: "Search out why someone would, historically, destroy or remove books and make the spiritual decision for the layperson."

This has nothing to do with anything that I posted.
 
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Dale

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That's a long post, but I'll give it a try.
Angels as sons of God: Yes they are, in the sense that they were created before the Earth began by God.

They differ from Jesus, in that while the angels were created, Jesus was begotten.
So the angels are sons (small "s") of God, while Jesus is the begotten Son of God.

Yes, angels sing and so do stars. But stars sing in electrical sound waves, whereas angels sing like humans.

Lucifer is a fallen angel, fallen from heaven. But he still has access to the ear of God, because he is "the accuser of the brethren" (think of a prosecuting atty, determined to prove our guilt before the throne of God.) Satan will have that privilege until he is defeated by Christ, and cast in chains into Hell forever, (along with his demons) at the End of the Age.

It is true that no one in the bible prays for protection from satan, because he is allowed by God to have full access to men until the end of the age. But there are prayers that God would rebuke satan.



People have strong opinions about angels. There is actually no chapter or section of the Bible that tells us what the story is on angels. You say that angels were created before the Earth was made. This may be true but God may still be created today. We simply don't know.

Hebrews Chapter 1 and 2 talks more about angels than any other part of the Bible. Let's take a look at what it says.

5 For to what angel did God ever say,
“Thou art my Son,
today I have begotten thee”?
Or again,
“I will be to him a father,
and he shall be to me a son”?

6 And again, when he brings the first-born into the world, he says,
“Let all God’s angels worship him.”

7 Of the angels he says,
“Who makes his angels winds,
and his servants flames of fire.”
Hebrews 1:5-7 RSV

Hebrews describes angels as winds but not as stars. Angels are called servants, not sons. Hebrews says that God does not have a father-son relationship with any angel. This is why I am cautious about accepting the view of angels in the Book of Job. As I said, Job is a story designed to make a theological point about suffering and God but we had better leave it at that.
 
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d taylor

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Kaon: "Why are singing stars far-fetched If you believe the Savior cast out literal demons, and literally resurrected from the dead?"

It's not a question of "singing stars" being far-fetched. It is significant that there are no singing stars anywhere in the OT or anywhere in the Bible. Genesis says that God created stars and says that they are for "signs and seasons." Genesis doesn't humanize stars. In the OT, stars are sometimes referred to because they are numerous, as in "countless as the stars." Outside of that, the one thing the prophets have to say about stars is that they ARE NOT TO BE WORSHIPPED.

Kaon: "Instead of trying to calibrate a spiritual phenomenon to what science says is possible ..."

I've said nothing about science in this thread.

Kaon: "Search out why someone would, historically, destroy or remove books and make the spiritual decision for the layperson."

This has nothing to do with anything that I posted.

Stars fought in a battle against Sisera in the Old Testament.
 
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Kaon

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Kaon: "Why are singing stars far-fetched If you believe the Savior cast out literal demons, and literally resurrected from the dead?"

It's not a question of "singing stars" being far-fetched. It is significant that there are no singing stars anywhere in the OT or anywhere in the Bible. Genesis says that God created stars and says that they are for "signs and seasons." Genesis doesn't humanize stars. In the OT, stars are sometimes referred to because they are numerous, as in "countless as the stars." Outside of that, the one thing the prophets have to say about stars is that they ARE NOT TO BE WORSHIPPED.

Stars mean more than shining luminaries in the bible. The Hebrew word is kowkab, which can refer to an entity (like a prince or magistrate), or a literal round shining ball of light.

If you believe that demons can be cast out by a human/son of man, and/or that a son of man can resurrect, then why is Job so far-fetched? Hebrew and Greek are polar in terms of how the subject is described with respect to the metaphor/parable. The entire Western approach to the OT, therefore, is part of the problem. All of these books point back to the many other books written. John even said that there aren't enough books to contain the words of the Word of God Himself. That should tell you there is much more to everything, and what you are interpreting could be alluding to several different texts/times/events you don't even know about.

Kaon: "Instead of trying to calibrate a spiritual phenomenon to what science says is possible ..."

I've said nothing about science in this thread.

You are asking what is possible and probable with respect to the events of Job based on what you know about the natural world, no?

What is your "meter" for possibility if not science? We know everything is possible spiritually in Job, because all things are possible with the Most High God. So, how do you gauge possibility and probability if not by scientia/knowledge?

Kaon: "Search out why someone would, historically, destroy or remove books and make the spiritual decision for the layperson."

This has nothing to do with anything that I posted.

It has everything to do with what you posted. You are trying to reconcile the legitimacy of Job while coming from the perspective of, perhaps, not realizing the bible is a canon, and there has always been a group of humans that have chosen which books are acceptable in that canon, and which aren't

Just because your particular source of information is seemingly ambiguous on the subject doesn't mean there is no information on it. Now, I believe everything I said can be interpreted from the canon especially with the help of understanding Hebrew.

You are discounting a reality based on a very small range of accessible information that you are willing to entertain. That may be your problem, I said before that humans handicap themselves through logic and reason - constantly baffled by the alleged illogical and unreasonable.
 
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NBB

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Satan can no longer accuse those in Christ Jesus.

What do you mean? i wasn't even accused by satan when i was not a christian after i became one, this is i think his favorite tactic against us.
 
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redleghunter

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What do you mean? i wasn't even accused by satan when i was not a christian after i became one, this is i think his favorite tactic against us.
That you know of. Jesus now sits at the Right Hand of the Father as our mediator and advocate.
 
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Dale

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Not understanding something does not mean it is to be taken symbolic.


If you think that the Book of Job is a literal story, then when did it happen? There is no time it could have happened.

Do you believe that Job lived 180 years?
 
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NBB

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If you think that the Book of Job is a literal story, then when did it happen? There is no time it could have happened.

Do you believe that Job lived 180 years?

I think Jacob was the father of Joseph? i think he lived for 140 years dying in egypt.
 
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