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The Book of Enoch?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Devin P, Aug 15, 2017.

  1. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    "Paul quoted Menander in the book of Acts and in 1 Corinthians. He quoted Epimenides in the book of Titus. Let's take a look.

    • Acts 17:28, "for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His children.'"
      • "The first part of verse 28 comes from Cretica by Epimenides, and the second part of the verse from Hymn to Zeus, written by the Cilician poet Aratus. To be sure, both of these lines were directed at Zeus in Greek literature, but Paul applied them to the Creator of whom he spoke."1
      • Paul quoted "the first half of the fifth line, word for word, of an astronomical poem of Aratus, a Greek countryman of the apostle, and his predecessor by about three centuries. But, as he hints, the same sentiment is to be found in other Greek poets. They meant it doubtless in a pantheistic sense; but the truth which it expresses the apostle turns to his own purpose—to teach a pure, personal, spiritual Theism."2
    • 1 Cor. 15:33, "Do not be deceived: “Bad company corrupts good morals.'”
      • "a current saying, forming a verse in MENANDER, the comic poet, who probably took it from Euripides [SOCRATES, Ecclesiastical History, 3.16]."3
      • "The words “Bad company ruins good morals” are found in a play by Menander (4th-3rd century B. C.) but may well have become a common saying by Paul’s time."4
      • "Evil communications corrupt good manners. An iambic line from the ‘Thais’ of Menander, and perhaps taken by Menander from a play of Euripides. More accurately it means “evil associations corrupt excellent morals."5
    • Titus 1:12, "One of themselves, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons."
      • "Epimenides of Phaestus, or Gnossus, in Crete, about 600. He was sent for to purify Athens from its pollution occasioned by Cylon. He was regarded as a diviner and prophet. The words here are taken probably from his treatise “concerning oracles.” Paul also quotes from two other heathen writers, ARATUS (Ac 17:28) and MENANDER (1 Co 15:33), but he does not honor them so far as even to mention their names.6
      • "A prophet of their own; viz. Epimenides, a native either of Phæstus or of Cnossus in Crete, the original author of this line, which is also quoted by Callimachus. Epimenides is here called a prophet, not simply as a poet, but from his peculiar character as priest, bard, and seer; called by Plato θεῖος ἀνήρ and coupled by Cicero with Bacis the Boeotian prophet, and the sibyl (Bishop Ellicott); described by other ancient writers as a prophet (Alford)."7
    • 1. Gangel, Kenneth O. Acts. Vol. 5. Holman New Testament Commentary. Nashville, TN: Broadman & Holman Publishers, 1998.
    • 2. Jamieson, Robert, A. R. Fausset, and David Brown. Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible. Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1997.
    • 3. Jamieson, Robert, A. R. Fausset, and David Brown. Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible. Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1997.
    • 4. Ellingworth, Paul, Howard Hatton, and Paul Ellingworth. A Handbook on Paul’s First Letter to the Corinthians. UBS Handbook Series. New York: United Bible Societies, 1995.
    • 5. Spence-Jones, H. D. M., ed. 1 Corinthians. The Pulpit Commentary. London; New York: Funk & Wagnalls Company, 1909.
    • 6. Jamieson, Robert, A. R. Fausset, and David Brown. Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible. Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1997.
    • 7. Spence-Jones, H. D. M., ed. Titus. The Pulpit Commentary. London; New York: Funk & Wagnalls Company, 1909.

    Source

    In First Clement, he quotes, rather uses the illustration of the Greek mythology of the Phoenix to compare our resurrection with.

    "CHAPTER 25 -- THE PHOENIX AN EMBLEM OF OUR RESURRECTION.

    Let us consider that wonderful sign [of the resurrection] which takes place in Eastern lands, that is, in Arabia and the countries round about. There is a certain bird which is called a phoenix. This is the only one of its kind, and lives five hundred years. And when the time of its dissolution draws near that it must die, it builds itself a nest of frankincense, and myrrh, and other spices, into which, when the time is fulfilled, it enters and dies. But as the flesh decays a certain kind of worm is produced, which, being nourished by the juices of the dead bird, brings forth feathers. Then, when it has acquired strength, it takes up that nest in which are the bones of its parent, and bearing these it passes from the land of Arabia into Egypt, to the city called Heliopolis. And, in open day, flying in the sight of all men, it places them on the altar of the sun, and having done this, hastens back to its former abode. The priests then inspect the registers of the dates, and find that it has returned exactly as the five hundredth year was completed.

    Source

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  2. jaybird88

    jaybird88 Active Member

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    im not seeing anywhere in that where Paul suggest this is scripture.
    very different from Jude where he mentions Sodom and Gomorrah, archangel Michael, Moses, Cain, Balaam, etc, all these are in reference to Hebrew scripture, then Jude goes into Enoch, the seventh from Adam, quotes the book, after tying the quote into the previous passage which we know is scripture.
     
  3. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    I provided not only my source, but the scriptures where Paul borrowed from with, I might add, noted Lexicon proof to boot.

    If you don't see it, what can I say.

    Believe as you wish.

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  4. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    nm
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2017
  5. Devin P

    Devin P Well-Known Member

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    Where's the verse where Jesus refuted Enoch teaching his children what he had learned?
     
  6. yeshuasavedme

    yeshuasavedme Senior Veteran

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    Note: the Son of Man is in heaven even while He is God incarnate in a New Creation human being flesh, in that passage, which flesh is the Kinsman/Redeemer to the Adam creation -and he will always be in that garment of flesh, which was prepared for Him in the womb of the virgin, and which He put on at the incarnation, and He is returning in that same Garment in which He died, rose in, ascended in: Isaiah 59; Revelation 19.

    It is a shame that your source, whom you are pasting great tomes from, did not know the Word of God better, if he did, he would not shame himself by such easily refuted untruths against the Word of God.
    I formerly showed why this is not true, in a post to you, and why it is taking the Words of Jesus out of context, but to go on:

    Gen 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
    The word" to take" [Hebrew transliterated is "laquach"] and is the Hebrew word which means to take away, to remove from one place to another, to go get, to marry, and so on, it also means the word which we get "rapture" from. Enoch was raptured to heaven, and the first use of the word in Torah was when God "took" a rib bone from Adam and built an "ishyah", for him, a female Adam person.
    You can search out the use of the word for yourself, and learn: Genesis 1:1 (KJV)
    God raptured/took from one place to another the firstborn in Adam, so as to rule from heaven which is where Paradise is, and there was free going in and out before the fall, at which time Adam was "cast down to earth below" and forbidden to return by any means in that defiled flesh, lest he eat of the Tree of Life and be defiled in that flesh forever -and then could never have been redeemed and changed to the Glory body (and only fit to be an undying worm in that body, in the Lake of Fire, forever]...which is why Adam got cast down from the third heaven, where Paradise is, as the Bible teaches.
    Next, God raptured to heaven-took to heaven, Elijah, who ascended to heaven. "To ascend" is the Hebrew word which means "to go up". Elijah went up, ascended, to heaven, and he was raptured, to heaven;

    ascend: Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

    both Hebrew words are used in the Bible about Elijah's ascension/rapture, and he is coming back in the same body untransformed, to preach in Jerusalem with Moses, and they will then die, be resurrected in their transformed bodies, and be taken up, ascend, be raptured.
    Enoch returned to earth in his own untransformed body after he was shown all things, and had one year to write many books and be taken up/raptured, ascend to heaven in his own transformed body. He rules and reigns with the Watcher angels there, and is a shadow and type of the remaining alive on earth Church which will be raptured in transformed bodies along with those who departed their bodies in the ages since the Church was established.
    Paul the apostle was raptured/taken up, to heaven, and so, he too, ascended, and came back; but he said he did not know if he was in the body or out of the body. John the Revelator also was raptured/ascended to heaven, but he also did not know if he was n his body or out of his body.
    Moses was resurrected in his own untransformed body and taken/ascended to heaven. You see him speaking with Jesus on the Mount of Transformation along with Elijah, and speaking with Jesus about His upcoming death in Jerusalem, we are told in the Gospel.
    God took Adam, the firstborn, to Paradise in the third heaven, and Adam could ascend and descend, before the fall.

    2 Cor 12:2 It is doubtless[a] not profitable for me to boast. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord: 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up (raptured) to the third heaven. 3 And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— 4 how he was caught up into Paradise]

    Rev 2:7
    He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2017
  7. jaybird88

    jaybird88 Active Member

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    i dont see what? your not making any sense.
    i see Paul qouting Greek poets as greek poets and not scripture, thats what i see. nothing like Jude.
     
  8. SummaScriptura

    SummaScriptura Forever Newbie

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    Thanks for the taking the time to reply. I'm unconvinced though.

    There are some things I am sure of, there are some things I am kinda sure of and there are a lot of things I am unsure of. Your answer sounds like you are being informed by other sources than Enoch on this subject. I'm not there yet. Just from the passage itself to me its not clear. It seems to me more likely the names are other Watchers from the initial 200. Eve would have been alive during the days of Jared. She could have been led astray a second time. But honestly, for now, the jury is out for me on this passage until I get more light on it.

    P.S. My Fiverr seller is just about done with the book cover. Next I print a "proof" of the book which I check for any last problems which I fix. Lastly I upload the files to Amazon and its a done deal. Maybe November 1. 11 years is long enough.
     
  9. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." -Jn. 3:13 (KJV)

    John Gill comments:

    "And no man hath ascended into heaven
    Though Enoch and Elias had, yet not by their own power, nor in the sense our Lord designs; whose meaning is, that no man had, or could go up to heaven, to bring from thence the knowledge of divine and heavenly things; in which sense the phrase is used in ( Deuteronomy 30:12 ) ( Romans 10:6 ) , and which may be illustrated by ( John 1:18 ) ; wherefore inasmuch as Nicodemus had acknowledged Christ to he a teacher come from God, our Lord, would have him know, that he was the only teacher of heavenly things, as being the only person that had been in heaven, and in the bosom of the Father; and therefore, if he, and the rest of the Jews, did not receive instructions from him, they must for ever remain ignorant; for there never had been, nor was, nor could be, any mere man that could go up to heaven, and learn the mysteries of God, and of the kingdom of heaven, and return and instruct men in them:

    but he that came down from heaven;
    meaning himself, who is the Lord from heaven, and came from thence to do the will of God by preaching the Gospel, working miracles, obeying the law, and suffering death in the room of his people, and thereby obtaining eternal redemption for them. Not that he brought down from heaven with him, either the whole of his human nature, or a part of it; either an human soul, or an human body; nor did he descend locally, by change of place, he being God omnipresent, infinite and immense, but by assumption of the human nature into union with his divine person:
    [even] the son of man which is in heaven;
    at the same time he was then on earth: not that he was in heaven in his human nature, and as he was the son of man; but in his divine nature, as he was the Son of God; see ( John 1:18 ) ; though this is predicated of his person, as denominated from the human nature, which was proper to him only in his divine nature; for such is omnipresence, or to be in heaven and earth at the same time: just as on the other hand God is said to purchase the church with his blood, and the Lord of glory is said to be crucified, ( Acts 20:28 ) ( 1 Corinthians 2:8 ) , where those things are spoken of Christ, as denominated from his divine nature, which were proper only to his human nature; and is what divines call a communication of idioms or properties; and which will serve as a key to open all such passages of Scripture: and now as a proof of our Lord's having been in heaven, and of his being a teacher come from God, and such an one as never was, or can be, he opens and explains a type respecting himself, in the following verse."

    Source

    This is strengthened by:

    "By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; AND HE WAS NOT FOUND BECAUSE GOD TOOK HIM UP; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God. Hebrews 11:5 NASB

    Old Testament scholar, Gordon Wenham, points out, "The idea of 'was not' cannot merely be a poetic way of saying 'died,' because every other reference to the death of the men in that same genealogy is 'and he died' (eight times). In contrast, Enoch is the only one with this peculiar wording 'and he was not.' But this reflects the same wording used of Elijah's translation to heaven in a chariot of fire, thus avoiding death (2 Kgs 2: 1-10)." (Gordon J. Wenham, Genesis 1-15, vol. 1, Word Biblical Commentary (Dallas: Word, Incorporated, 1998), 128.) Enoch walked in fellowship with God, his life pleased God, and God removed him from the earth without him dying. Where did Enoch go? Did God take him right to heaven? I don't think so because Yeshua said:

    "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. John 3:13 NASB

    Prior to the completion of redemption at A.D. 70, nobody went to heaven."

    Source

    Enoch says he was taken up, saw, wrote down, brought back to reach and recover, then taken back up.

    "1He said, O Enoch, look on the book which heaven has gradually dropped down; (86) and, reading that which is written in it, understand every part of it.

    (86) The book which…dropped down. Or, "the book of the tablets of heaven" (Knibb, p. 186).

    2Then I looked on all which was written, and understood all, reading the book and everything written in it, all the works of man;

    3And of all the children of flesh upon earth, during the generations of the world.

    4Immediately after I blessed the Lord, the King of glory, who has thus for ever formed the whole workmanship of the world.

    5And I glorified the Lord, on account of his long-suffering and blessing towards the children of the world.

    6At that time I said, Blessed is the man, who shall die righteous and good, against whom no catalogue of crime has been written, and with whom iniquity is not found.

    7Then those three holy ones caused me to approach, and placed me on the earth, before the door of my house.

    8And they said unto me, Explain everything to Mathusala your son; and inform all your children, that no flesh shall be justified before the Lord; for he is their Creator.

    9During one year we shall leave you with your children, until you shalt again recover your strength, that you may instruct your family, write these things, and explain them to all your children. But in another year they shall take you from the midst of them, and your heart shall be strengthened; for the elect shall point out righteousness to the elect; the righteous with the righteous shall rejoice, congratulating each other; but the sinners with sinners shall die,

    10And the perverted with the perverted shall be drowned.

    11Those likewise who act righteously shall die on account of the works of man, and shall be gathered together on account of the works of the wicked.

    12In those days they finished conversing with me."

    Source

    In fact, Enoch says that by the time he finished doing that, he was:

    "So that the year is completed in three hundred and sixty-four days." -Enoch 81:7

    Scripture says nothing about Enoch being called up, then sent back down, then taken up again at 364.

    In fact, it says:

    "And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him." -Gen. 5:23-24 (KJV)

    Unless you can prove from scripture, not Enoch, but Scripture alone, that Genesis is wrong and Enoch is right, your wrong.

    No man has ever done that! No man.

    Only Jesus has.

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2017
  10. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    Please note, there is one and only one passage in the entire Old Testament where the phrase "son of man" is used, and there it is used in reference to the messenger, Ezekiel.

    "Son of man, speak to the children of thy people, and say unto them, When I bring the sword upon a land, if the people of the land take a man of their coasts, and set him for their watchman:" -Eze. 33:2 (KJV)

    The phrase "son of man" in reference to Jesus Christ is absent.

    It is not there.

    Zip, nada.

    Your case has as many holes in it as a colander.

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  11. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    That's funny.

    "There is no manuscript or historical evidence that 1 Enoch was ever a part of this traditional threefold designation. The earliest manuscripts we have of canonical writings of the Tanakh are from 400-300 B.C. from the library of Qumran. [Gleason Archer Jr., A Survey of Old Testament Introduction, 3rd. ed. (Chicago: Moody Press, 1994), 41.]

    Bauckham points out, "The Enoch literature and other apocryphal works at Qumran were evidently valued as literary works by the Essene community but were not included in their canon of Scripture." [Richard J. Bauckham, 2 Peter, Jude, vol. 50, Word Biblical Commentary (Dallas: Word, Incorporated, 1998), 96.]

    The Hebrew Masoretic Texts (MT), that were compiled between A.D. 500 and 900 by Jewish scribes, is considered by both Christians and Jews to be one of the most authoritative set of manuscripts reflecting the ancient Jewish canon. 1 Enoch was never a part of this set. The only manuscript collection that does include 1 Enoch as canonical is the Ethiopic Canon of the Coptic Church. But this designation was solidified sometime in the 13th century A.D."

    Source

    Funny, saying the Ethiopic Church accepted it in their canon so we should to, when the canon of scripture for the New Testament was closed around the AD 100.

    This just keeps getting funnier and funnier.

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2017
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  12. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    There is no presence in the scriptures to show that the Garden of Eden, was/is in heaven.

    You sir, preach "another gospel".

    "if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed." -Gal. 1:9 (KJV)

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  13. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    Nowhere is the scriptures does it say that.

    You sir, preach another gospel.

    "if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed." -Gal. 1:9 (KJV)

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  14. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    Quite true.

    But...Paul did not preach on the things he saw as did it is supposedly written by Enoch.

    John, however, was given specific instructions to reveal eschatology, not soteriology.

    Big difference.

    You sir, preach another gospel.

    "if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed." -Gal. 1:9 (KJV)

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  15. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    True, but you overlook another passage.

    "So Moses the servant of the Lord died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the Lord. And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day. And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated." -Deut. 34:5-7 (KJV)

    Moses died, unlike Enoch or Elijah.

    And God Himself buried him.

    Moses was on the Mount of Transfiguration for a reason.

    Now it is you grasping at straws.

    To say that Adam was in heaven, in the Garden of Eden, where "the Tree of Life" is just because the book of Revelation says there is a tree of life there is a stretch.

    Heaven has always been, there was never a time where heaven and the tree of life did not exist.

    But, we are told specifically that God created a Garden in Eden.

    In reality, if you want to get even more specific, it was created on the third day and man was "planted" there.

    And since you want to make the Tree of Life in Revelation the same one as in the Garden, answer me this.

    Genesis tells us that where Eden was, one river goes out, and splits into four:

    "And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads." -Gen. 2:10 (KJV)

    In Rev. 22:1, there is one river and one river only!

    "And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb."

    You sir, preach another gospel.

    "if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed." -Gal. 1:9 (KJV)

    Eden, was/is somewhere here on earth. As to where, nobody knows, but it was here on earth.

    Nowhere in scripture are we told that Adam, Enoch, Elijah, or even Moses were able to ascend and descend to and from heaven.

    Haha, that's funny too.

    "laqach: to take"

    Can be translated/rendered as:

    "accept (8), accepted (3), accepts (2), bring (18), brought (13), buy (1), buys (1), capture (2), captured (2), carry (3), caught (2), exact (1), find (1), flashing (1), flashing forth (1), get (25), gets (1), got (2), has (1), keep (1), married (9), married* (6), marries (1), marry (5), obtain (1), placed (2), procured (2), put (1), raise (3), receive (20), received (12), receives (3), receiving (1), seize (3), seized (2), select (1), selected (1), sent (1), supply (1), take (355), taken (74), takes (15), taking (2), took (352), took away (1), use (1), used (1), wins (1)."

    Funny, I don't see "raptured" linked to any of these.

    "1 take, take in the hand, followed by accusative of thing, Exodus 7:15 (J), Exodus 17:5 (E), Numbers 25:7 (P), 2 Kings 4:29 (all with בְּיַד) 2 Samuel 18:14 (with בְּכַף), compare Genesis 8:9 (J), Exodus 4:17; Exodus 12:22 (JE), Deuteronomy 15:17 + often; Genesis 40:11 (E; of plucking grapes. 2 Samuel 4:6 read סֹקְלָהfor לֹקְחֵי, see חִטָּה, p. 334 above, and סקל). This easily passes into
    2 take and carry along with oneself, כֶּסֶף קְחוּ בְיֶדְכֶם Genesis 43:12 (J), Joshua 9:11 (JE), 1 Kings 14:3; 2 Kings 5:5; 2 Kings 8:8,9; 2 Kings 9:1 all Proverbs 7:20 (all with בְּיַד); Genesis 43:15; Joshua 9:4 (both J E), +.
    3. a. take from, or out of, followed by active of thing or person, + מִן local: Genesis 2:22 (rib from man), Genesis 3:22 (man from ground; both J); Deuteronomy 19:12; 1 Samuel 17:49; 1 Kings 17:19 +; וַיִּקַּ ח אֶתהַֿחֶרֶב מֵעַל יֶרֶךְ יִמִינוֺ Judges 3:21 (i.e. drew it); with ב instrumental בְּמֶלְקָחַיִם מֵעַל הַמִּזְבֵּחַ ׳ל Isaiah 6:6; followed by מִן partitive 2 Samuel 12:4.
    b. take, carry away: Ezekiel 3:14 sprit lifited me up and carried me away; figurativeof passion carrying one away Job 15:12.
    c. take away from, so as to deprive of, followed by accusative Genesis 42:36 (E); followed by accusative+ מִן, Genesis 44:29 (מֵעִם; J), 1 Kings 11:34; Psalm 51:13; לֹקֵחַ אֶתֿ ׳י אֲדֹנֶיךָ מֵעַל ראֹשֶׁ֑ךָ 2 Kings 2:3 ׳י is about to take away thy lord from over thy head, so 2 Kings 2:5; compare absolute אֵינֶנּוּ אֹתוֺ אלהים ׳כִּילֿ Genesis 5:24 (P); more often without מִן, Genesis 27:36 (twice in verse); Genesis 30:15 (twice in verse); Genesis 31:1 (all J), Judges 11:13,15; Judges 15:6; Judges 18:24; 1 Samuel 12:3 (twice in verse); 2 Samuel 12:4; 1 Kings 11:34; Job 12:20; absolute Job 1:21; אֶתֶּןלְֿךָ מֶלֶךְ בְּאַמִּי וְאֶקַּח בְּעֶבְרָתִי Hosea 13:11; of the sword, taking away its victims Ezekiel 33:4,6; figurative of taking away understanding Hosea 4:11.
    d. especially take away life 1 Kings 19:10,14; Psalm 31:14; Proverbs 1:19; Jonah 4:3.
    4 take to or for a person:
    a. for oneself, followed by accusative + לְ, = appropriate to oneself Deuteronomy 7:25; Numbers 8:16 (P), Deuteronomy 22:7; 2 Kings 12:6; with לְ as dativus commodi [dative of benefit], Zechariah 11:7; אֶתשְֿׁנֵי יְלָדַי לוֺ לַעֲבָדִים ׳ל 2 Kings 4:1 to take my two sons for himself for slaves; so (without לְ reflexive), תִּקָּחֶנּוּ לְעֶבֶד עוֺלָם Job 40:28 wilt thou take him as slave for ever?
    b. = procure, get, followed by accusative + לְ, קְחוּ לָכֶם תֶּבֶןExodus 5:11 (J) get you straw; לֹקֵחַ לוֺ קָלוֺן Proverbs 9:7 getteth to himself shame; so often, especially קַח לְךָ, etc., Genesis 6:21; Genesis 12:19; Genesis 16:21; Genesis 45:19 +; without לְ, Nehemiah 5:2 let us procure corn, and eat and live; of acquiring a field Proverbs 31:16.
    c. take possession of, followed by accusative, of land Deuteronomy 29:7; Joshua 11:16,23 (all D), 2 Chronicles 16:5; compare מְּקֻדָּתוֺ יִקַּח אַחֵר Psalm 109:8 his office let another take; figurative הַלַּיְלָה הַהוּא יִקָּחֵהוּ אֹפֶל Job 3:6 that night — let darkness take possession of it!
    d. = select, choose, ׳י ׳וְאֶתְכֶם לDeuteronomy 4:20, compare Deuteronomy 4:34 ( + לוֺ), 1 Kings 11:37; of men Deuteronomy 1:15; Joshua 3:12 (J E; + לָכֶם); + מִן Deuteronomy 1:23; Joshua 4:2 (JE).
    e. especially take in marriage: (I) for another, especially a son, with לְ, וְלָקַחְתָּ֫ אִשָּׁה לִבְנִי, Genesis 24:4 and thou shalt take a wifefor my son, so Genesis 24:7; Genesis 24:38; Genesis 24:40; Genesis 24:48 (all J), Genesis 21:21 (E), Jeremiah 29:6b; (2) more often for oneself, usually with לְ reflexive (sometimes + לְאִשָּׁה), Genesis 4:19; Genesis 6:2; Genesis 11:29; Genesis 12:19 (all J), + often; without לְ Genesis 20:2,3(E), etc.
    f. = receive, accept, especially a bribe, gift, ransom, etc., 1 Samuel 8:3; 1 Samuel 12: 1 Samuel 12:4 (both followed by מִן), Amos 5:12; 2 Kings 5:15,16,20,23,26 (twice in verse); Psalm 15:5; interest-money Ezekiel 18:13,17; Ezekiel 22:12; inheritance Joshua 13:8; Joshua 18:7(both D), Numbers 34:14 (twice in verse); Numbers 34:15 (P); of earth, receiving Abel's blood Genesis 4:11(J); chastisement Isaiah 40:2; of perceiving a sound, Job 4:11 mine ear received a whisper of it; receive mentally: וְלָקַח בְּעָלָיו Exodus 22:10 (E) i.e. shall accept the oath as satisfactory; בָּרֵךְ לָקַחְתִּי Numbers 23:20 (JE), i.e. I have received (commandment by revelation) to bless; receive instruction Proverbs 24:32; Jeremiah 2:30 +; entanglements of temptation Proverbs 22:25.
    g. take, as preliminary to further action: Genesis 31:34(E), she took them and put them; Judges 3:25 take key and open; Joshua 2:4 she took the two men and hid them; 1 Kings 18:4 Obadiah took100prophets and hid them; 1 Kings 19:21 Elisha took the yoke of oxen and slew them, compare 2 Samuel 17:19; 2 Samuel 18:18; sometimes wholly redundant, קְחוּ וַעֲשׂוּ עֲגָלָה חֲדָשָׁה 1 Samuel 6:7 take and prepare a new cart, etc.; somewhat different is הַלֹּקְחִים לְשׁוֺנָם וַיִּנְאֲמוּ נְאֻם Jeremiah 23:31, i.e. they take (= make use of) their own tongues, and talk oracles.
    5 take up, upon =put upon, followed by ׃עַל וַתִּקַּת תָּמָר אֵפֶר עַלרֿאֹשָׁהּ 2 Samuel 13:19 and Tamar put ashes upon her head; וַיִּקָּחֶהָ עַלהַֿחֲמוֺר Judges 19:28; compare יִפְרשֹׁ כְּנָפָיו יִקָּחֵהוּ Deuteronomy 32:11 he spreadeth his wings, he taketh him up.
    6 = fetch: קְחִינָֿא לִי מְעַטמַֿיִם 1 Kings 17:10 fetch me, pray, a little water, compare 1 Kings 17:11; 1 Kings 17:11, 2 Kings 2:20; 2 Kings 4:41; וְקַחלִֿי מִשָּׁם שְׁנֵי גְּדָיֵי עִוִּים Genesis 27:9 and fetch me thence two kids, compare Genesis 27:13 (J); + בְּיָדִי 1 Samuel 21:9; an offering Leviticus 12:8 (P; "" הֵבִיא Leviticus 12:6); with human object often nearly = summon, לָקֹב אֹיְבַי לְקַחְתִּיךָ Numbers 33:11 (JE) to curse mine enemies did I summon thee, Judges 11:5; 1 Samuel 16:11; שְׁלַח וְקַח אֹתוֺ אֵלַי 1 Samuel 20:31 send and bring him unto me; 2 Kings 3:15; 2 Kings 6:13 +; of ׳י, summoning his people from exile, מִשָּׁם יְקָּחֶ֑ךָ Deuteronomy 30:4.
    7 take=lead, conduct (with or without contact): וַיִּקַּח אֶתשְֿׁנֵי בָנָיו עִמּוֺ Genesis 48:1; גַּם בְּקַרְכֶם קְחוּ Exodus 12:32 (both E); וְאֶתעַֿמּוֺ לָקַח עִמּוֺ Exodus 14:6 (J) and his people he took with him; compare Exodus 14:7 (J), Joshua 8:1 (JE), Judges 4:6; אֶקָּֽחֲךָ אֶלמָֿקוֺם אַחֵר Numbers 23:27 I will take thee unto another place, compare Numbers 23:14; Numbers 23:28 (all J E); ׳י subject, וָאֶקַּח אֶתאֲֿבִיכֶם Joshua 24:3 (E) and I took your father Abraham from beyond the river; לַמָּוֶת הַצֵּל לְקֻחִים rescue those led to death.
    8 take = capture, seize: לָקַחְתִּי בְחָזְקָה 1 Samuel 2:16 I will take by force, that is, flesh; of spoils, ׳בֶּצַע כֶּסֶף לֹא ל Judges 5:19 gain of silver they took not; of capture of ark 1 Samuel 5:1; bronze 2 Samuel 8:3, etc.; territory Genesis 48:22 (E), Deuteronomy 3:14; cities Numbers 21:25 (JE),.Deuteronomy 3:14; Joshua 11:19 (D), 1 Samuel 7:14; 2 Samuel 8:1; of capture of hippopotamus Job 40:24; of seductions of woman, וְאַלתִּֿקָּֽחֲךָ בְּעַפְעַמֶּיהָ Proverbs 6:25 and let her not capture thee with her eyelids.
    9 take = carry off:
    a. as booty Genesis 14:11; 1 Samuel 27:9; 1 Samuel 30:16,18,19,20; 1 Kings 14:26 (twice in verse).
    b. as prisoners Genesis 14:12; 2 Kings 18:32 = Isaiah 36:17; 2 Kings 23:34 2Chronicles 36:4.
    10 inphrase take vengeance: וְנִקְחָה נִקְמָתֵנוּ מִמֶּנּוּ Jeremiah 20:10 and we will take our vengeance upon him; absolute נָקָם אֶקַּח Isaiah 47:3 vengeance will I take.
    Niph`al Perfect נִלְקַח 1 Samuel 4:22; נִלְקָ֑ח 1 Samuel 4:11; Ezekiel 33:6; 3feminine singular נִלְקָ֑חָה 1 Samuel 4:17; Imperfect3feminine singular וַתִּלָּקַח Esther 2:8,16; 1singular אֶלָּקַח 2 Kings 2:9; Infinitive construct הִלָּקַח 1 Samuel 4:19,21, suffix הִלָּֽקְחוֺ 1 Samuel 21:7; —
    1 be captured, of ark 1 Samuel 4:11,17,19,21,22.
    2 be taken away, removed, of shewbread 1 Samuel 21:7; of removal by death Ezekiel 33:6; of translation of Elijah 2 Kings 2:9 (with מֵעִם person)
    3 be taken, brought unto (אֶלֿ), only Esther 2:8,16.
    Pu`al Perfect לֻקַּח Genesis 3:23 +, 3 feminine singular לְֻקָֿחָהֿ Genesis 2:23, 2masculine singular לֻקָּ֑חְתָּ Genesis 3:19, etc.; —
    1 be taken from, out of ( מִן of source) Genesis 2:23; Genesis 3:19,23 (all J); compare וְלֻקַּח מֵהֶם קְלָלָה Jeremiah 29:22 and there shall be taken from them ( derived from their case) a curse-formula.
    2 = be stolen from, Judges 17:2 ( ל person)
    3 be taken captive, Jeremiah 48:46, compare Isaiah 52:5.
    4 be taken away, removed ( = Niph`al 2 ), of Elijah's translation 2 Kings 2:10 (with מֵאֵת person), of death Isaiah 53:8 (with מִן, probably instrumental)
    Hoph`al Imperfect יֻקַּח Genesis 18:4 +, etc.; —
    1 be taken, brought unto Genesis 12:15 (J; followed by בֵּית to the house of), Genesis 18:4 (absolute)
    2 be taken out of Job 28:2 (מִן of source ), from, of Ezekiel 15:3 (מִן partitive)
    3 be taken away from Isaiah 49:24 (מִן person); absolute Isaiah 49:25.
    Hithpa`el Participle feminine singular אֵשׁ מִתְלַקַּ֫חַת literally fire taking hold of itself, of lightning Exodus 9:24 (JE), Ezekiel 1:4, exact significance dubious; in close succession, incessant Di Sm, infolding itself, i.e. a mass of fire, Thes Rob-Ges A VB SS, > of quivering flashes Buhl, of forked or zigzag lightning Da."

    Source


    Strange, I see no reference at all with "laqach" to being "raptured" in reference to Enoch.

    There is a reference to Elijah, but not in the sense you want:

    "be taken away, removed, of shewbread 1 Samuel 21:7; of removal by death Ezekiel 33:6; of translation of Elijah 2 Kings 2:9 (with מֵעִם person) "

    Ibid

    But nothing, absolutely nothing to indicate it being a "rapture" type situation.

    Fact is, Enoch and Elijah both had to be translated because "corruption cannot inherit incorruption" (cf. 1 Cor. 15:50)

    But from the scriptures themselves, nowhere does it say Adam, Enoch, or Elijah were able to ascend and descend to and from heaven.

    You sir, preach another gospel.

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  16. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    I submit:

    “And to these also Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, ‘Behold, the Lord came with ten thousands of his holy ones, to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their works of ungodliness which they have wrought, and of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against him’” (Jude 14-15).

    At the beginning, let the following point be emphasized. In logic there is a concept known as “the law of rationality.” Simply stated it is this: One should draw only such conclusions as are warranted by the evidence. To go further, is to abuse the evidence.

    Now note carefully the actual facts that are set forth in this passage. There was a man of the early earth whose name was Enoch. He was the seventh generation from Adam, the first man (1 Cor. 15:45). Enoch uttered a prophecy of judgment against ungodly people who had spoken against God.

    Observe further, by way of contrast, what is not contained in this text. Nothing is said about a “book of Enoch.” There is no phrase such as, “it is written in the book of Enoch.” Nothing at all is indicated about any literary production.

    Some of the early church writers (e.g., Clement of Alexandria and Tertullian) viewed the Book of Enoch as being virtually inspired, inasmuch as they assumed that the document was quoted by Jude, and that such would suggest its divine character.

    On the other hand, later, when the Book of Enoch fell into considerable disfavor (being classified as pseudepigrapha [literally, false writing], others, also assuming that Jude had quoted from that narrative, questioned the inspiration of his little book (see Jerome’s reference in De. Vir. ill. 4).

    What is the Christian to make of this matter today? Here are some facts that may help to clarify the issue.

    There is nothing in the sacred text that identifies the actual origin of Jude’s quotation. Enoch’s original message was from God. It is entirely possible that the prophet Enoch may have been quoted directly by Jude, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit—since the prophecy is not contained in the Old Testament.

    This is not without precedent in Scripture. Paul once quoted the Lord Jesus, though the quotation he employed is nowhere recorded in the Gospel narratives; cf. Acts 20:35.)

    No one can prove, therefore, that Jude’s text was taken from the “Book of Enoch.”

    Further, it is likely that the quotation in the Book of Enoch reflects the echo of an ancient tradition that has its roots in the events of the Patriarchal period and that the inspiration of Jude, and the tradition of the Book of Enoch, merely merge at this juncture.

    Even if Jude had quoted from the Book of Enoch that would not establish the inspiration of the latter work. Paul quoted from several Greek writers, e.g., Aratus (Acts 17:28), Menander (1 Cor. 15:33), and Epimenides (Tit. 1:12), yet no one contends that the apostle’s use of these quotes endowed the original classical works with the aura of divine inspiration.

    Furthermore, the ad hominem use of a quotation from an uninspired source does not negate the inspiration of the one who uses it — if there is evidence otherwise that establishes the sacred character of the message he is presenting. The argument just cited relative to Paul’s citations from the classics equally establishes this truth."

    Source

    Jackson, Wayne. "Did Jude Quote from the Book of Enoch?" ChristianCourier.com. Access date: October 25, 2017. Did Jude Quote from the Book of Enoch?

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  17. yeshuasavedme

    yeshuasavedme Senior Veteran

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    I'm looking forward to the book.
    None of us agree on all points all the time, and I always reserve the right to change my opinion when I get more understanding on a subject.
    No, I only find what I said in the Book of Enoch, correlated with Tenach and the NT, on this issue.
    It puzzled me when those 5 were named, and I came to the conclusion I did because of wording, as I said.
    Shemjaza (spellings vary within Enoch, and that part is a fragment written by Noah), was tempted by Satan, as the leader of the 200. Enoch makes it plain there are many satans (evil spirits in heaven) who are not "fallen" but who were created to try Angels and the Adam creation, so as to reveal hearts. They got rule over earth when Adam sold it, and all flesh became subject to the satans at that time (eating dust is corruption by evil, of all flesh), and the Pit/Sheol (belly of the earth), was at that time prepared to receive the souls of every Adam creature that died, from corruption of the flesh, until the appointed time.
    Death, Destruction, and even Sheol are entities with proper names in the OT and NT. Even the flesh of every living creature was subjected to that corruption of "Death", a Satan, at that time.
    In that passage in the book of Enoch, two of those named tempted the Holy sons of God. Shemjaza was a holy son of God. (I believe "Shem -jaza" (means "name" and "strong"), is Azaz -el who will suffer torments in the lake of fire at the "hands" of the satans along with those he convinced to do (with the satans' tempting), the same.
    Enoch says they became "subject to the satans".
     
  18. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    Bottom line, is, was, has always been:

    Is it in the accepted canon of scripture?

    No!

    Everything you posted, is disputed in the scriptures alone.

    Like I said, if you want to accept it based on a churches conviction some 1700 years after the canon closed, fine.

    Join an Ethiopic church, otherwise you cannot preach it, or teach it as truth.

    That is plain and simple fact.

    And now you want to say Noah wrote a book?!?

    Again, show me in scripture where it says that.

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  19. yeshuasavedme

    yeshuasavedme Senior Veteran

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    Please read the Word.
    I think I put that in the post, but you err, not knowing Scripture.
    Paul said he was raptured to the third heaven, to Paradise.
    Jesus said the repentant thief on the cross would be with "Him" that very day, in Paradise. Jesus says the Tree of Life is in Paradise, in Revelation. It's always been there, from Genesis on.
    Jesus commended His living Spirit to the Father; His soul/Person left his incorruptible flesh body and His New Man Creation Soul "went away", to "ascribe all sin" laid upon His soul, at the Atonement, "to Azazel", who is chained in Sheol/the wilderness.
    "Azazel" in the Atonement rehearsed in the Law, for the Day of Atonement, is mistakenly translated to English as "Scapegoat"; because Enoch was hidden from the translators, they could not understand the significance of the Atonement as revealed in the Book of Enoch in ascribing all sin "To Azazel"..

    Paradise is in the third heaven. That is Scripture. The Tree of Life is there, and always has been. That is Scripture.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2017
  20. jaybird88

    jaybird88 Active Member

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    thats the problem, scripture tells us very little about Enoch other than the one sentence. its obvious Enoch was very important so why the silence on him?
    if no man goes to heaven and comes back whats the deal with Moses and Elijah on the mountain with Jesus?
    you also have another issue, look at the generations of Adam in Gen 5, they all live 700 to 900 years, all of them but one, Enoch at 365. just a coincidence and nothing to think about im sure.
    Enoch didnt die, he was taken. remember Elijah, he didnt die he was taken and also came back to lead the way for Jesus. another coincidence.
    Jesus also does not say man does not go to heaven and come back, He says no man goes there, comes back, but one who descended the Son of man.
    i dont know exactly what that means but i think its deeper then what your saying.
     
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