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The Book of Enoch?

jaybird88

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I'm not gonna argue with you any more.

Fact: The canon of scripture for the Old Testament closed around 300-400 BCE.

none of the Jewish sects at the time of Jesus and the 12 agreed on a universal canon. it was not until 80 ad that they agreed on a canon, the council was lead by a pharisee majority.

Fact: The canon of scripture for the New Testament closed around AD 100 shortly after John died.
then how did Pauls letters later become canon?

The Essenes were the only ones to have a "copy" of Enoch, and then, it was only a fragment.
they found more than 14 Enoch fragmented scrolls, one was in greek.

The Essenes, the people who kept the Dead Sea Scrolls, were only know to have been around since around 200 BCE. (a sect of Second Temple Judaism that flourished from the 2nd century BCE to the 1st century CE. -Source)

according to their own writing their great teachers went back to Akhenaten and as far back as Enoch.

Fact: ancient Judaism did not recognize the Book of Enoch.
Essenes were Jews

Fact: in the scriptures, with the exception Paul using Greek poetry in his epistles, every single quote from the Old Testament starts with "it is written". That is missing in Jude, as previously shown.

Even Jesus when confronted by Satan/Lucifer rebukes him with OT scripture saying "It is written".

Matthew 27:46
And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

Psalm 22
22 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me, from the words of my groaning?


There are 66 books in the canon of scripture, and Enoch is not one of them! Never was, never will be. Period!

then why does those 66 books mention names of other books not of those 66 books? Jasher, book of wars, Book of Shemaiah, Acts of Solomon, i could go on and on.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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SummaScriptura:
There is so much wrong with this post [DD's post], I don't know where to start. But why would I reply? I've replied before and you never responded, and now this!? I've even replied to you about some of the things here. For instance, which of the five or six canons of Scripture in the world today do you subscribe to? Its a real question and can be answered but you chose not to. This is not a discussion. Its an opportunity for you to belch online. Your posts are a waste of space.

By the way, since you've demonstrated excellent Googling skills, it would have taken you ten seconds to realize the Book of Enoch was not composed in Greek by Essenes. Sheesh!"

Amen!
 
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Almost there

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Let me guess, you're really good at playing horseshoes, right? Because you're really good at throwing hand-grenades through irresponsible posts. Your post is irresponsible because you don't want to have to defend your position with actual evidence, just assertions.
Actually, I'm saying that it contradicts new testament scripture. I was just trying to be entertaining about it. I like to have fun with this stuff in the vein of 1 Kings 8:27.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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True, but you overlook another passage.

"So Moses the servant of the Lord died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the Lord. And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day. And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated." -Deut. 34:5-7 (KJV)

Moses died, unlike Enoch or Elijah.

And God Himself buried him.

Moses was on the Mount of Transfiguration for a reason.

...
Moses indeed died, as a sign to warn those who would strike the Rock =Christ, twice, but Moses death was a warning, and was not eternal.
To heed the warning is to never, ever, deny the Atonement of Christ once, for sin, was effective for one the first time they repented and received salvation, but if they backslide, like Israel did and wandered in the wilderness for forty years, to speak to the Rock/Christ, and as it is said in Hosea 14:2
"Take with you words, and turn to the LORD: say unto him, Take away all iniquity, and receive us graciously: so will we render the calves of our lips."

But satan could not eat the dust of Moses dead flesh -as we see that Michael the Archangel forbade Satan to do., and we also see Moses resurrected in his own body of flesh, standing on the Mount of Transfiguration, with Elijah, who are both speaking with the LORD about His upcoming death in Jerusalem.

Moses and Elijah are the two witnesses standing among the disciples, though they could not see them, who witnessed the birth, life, death, resurrection, ascension, and the glory given to the LORD Jesus, which two Jesus said "will not die until they see the Kingdom of God"

Luke 9: 27 But I tell you truly, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the kingdom of God.”
Jesus Transfigured on the Mount

28 Now it came to pass, about eight days after these sayings, that He took Peter, John, and James and went up on the mountain to pray. 29 As He prayed, the appearance of His face was altered, and His robe became white and glistening. 30 And behold, two men talked with Him, who were Moses and Elijah, 31 who appeared in glory and spoke of His decease which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem. 32 But Peter and those with him were heavy with sleep; and when they were fully awake, they saw His glory and the two men who stood with Him. 33 Then it happened, as they were parting from Him, that Peter said to Jesus, “Master, it is good for us to be here; and let us make three tabernacles: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah”—not knowing what he said.


The Two Witnesses

11 Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood,[a] saying, “Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. 2 But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months. 3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”

4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth. 5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner. 6 These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire.
The Witnesses Killed

7 When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our[c] Lord was crucified. 9 Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies three-and-a-half days, and not allow[d] their dead bodies to be put into graves. 10 And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them, make merry, and send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.
The Witnesses Resurrected

11 Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. 12 And they[e] heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them. 13 In the same hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. In the earthquake seven thousand people were killed, and the rest were afraid and gave glory to the God of heaven.

34 While he was saying this, a cloud came and overshadowed them; and they were fearful as they entered the cloud. 35 And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My beloved Son. Hear Him!” 36 When the voice had ceased, Jesus was found alone. But they kept quiet, and told no one in those days any of the things they had seen.
 
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jaybird88

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At least, Copies of copies of copies....are that old:)
yeah and no telling how old that source might have been.
IMO the Essenes were a very ancient sect of Jews.
i never liked the "copies of copies" phrase, bart ehrman uses it to discredit the bible. copying a scripture was a sacred art to these people, it wasnt the same as one of us copying the local wendy's menu.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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yeah and no telling how old that source might have been.
IMO the Essenes were a very ancient sect of Jews.
i never liked the "copies of copies" phrase, bart ehrman uses it to discredit the bible. copying a scripture was a sacred art to these people, it wasnt the same as one of us copying the local wendy's menu.
They had to make copies, there weren't printing presses turning out books.
And yes, they were meticulous.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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Enoch tells us not only about "gender confusion" in the last days, but I believe he tells us about the "transforming" of gender, and the curse it brings; but that transforming of "gender they do is only mulating the body and never can change the chromosomes one is come to fruit in their Adam being with, which is written on every cell of one's flesh.

The Book of Enoch, Translated by Robert H. Charles, 1912
"98 And now I swear unto you, to the wise and to the foolish,
For ye shall have manifold experiences on the earth.

Prophecy Concerning Gender Confusion

2For ye men shall put on more adornments than a woman,
And coloured garments more than a virgin:
In royalty and in grandeur and in power,
And in silver and in gold and in purple,
And in splendour and in food they shall be poured out as water.

3Therefore they shall be wanting in doctrine and wisdom,
And they shall perish thereby together with their possessions;
And with all their glory and their splendour,
And in shame and in slaughter and in great destitution,
Their spirits shall be cast into the furnace of fire.

4I have sworn unto you, ye sinners, as a mountain has not become a slave,
And a hill does not become the handmaid of a woman,
Even so sin has not been sent upon the earth,
But man of himself has created it,
And under a great curse shall they fall who commit it.

5And barrenness has not been given to the woman,
But on account of the deeds of her own hands she dies without children.

6I have sworn unto you, ye sinners, by the Holy Great One,
That all your evil deeds are revealed in the heavens,
And that none of your deeds of oppression are covered and hidden.

7And do not think in your spirit nor say in your heart that ye do not know and that ye do not see that every sin is every day recorded in heaven in the presence of the Most High. 8From henceforth ye know that all your oppression wherewith ye oppress is written down every day till the day of your judgement.
...99 Woe to you who work godlessness,
And glory in lying and extol them:
Ye shall perish, and no happy life shall be yours.

2Woe to them who pervert the words of uprightness,
And transgress the eternal law,
And transform themselves into what they were not:

They shall be trodden under foot upon the earth."
 
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JM

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I don't know why people would get too upset about issues concerning the canon I mean, it's not like Protestants have a divine table of contents. We have a narrow canon and other books that are close to canon but are not inspired. Enoch isn't canon but it's useful.

Don't lose sleep over it.
 
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SummaScriptura

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Since you raise the issue of canon, I will jump in...

There is a truism that says there is no doctrine of canonization in the books of the Bible. We might wish there was a divine table of contents or maybe even a chapter in there giving guidelines for choosing the right books to include in either a tome or a collection of inspired writings.
 
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Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

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I think you guys might enjoy this thread : The Book of Enoch

To add to the thread here are some quotes from Church Fathers about The Book of Enoch:




1.
• Tertullian - On the Apparel of Women - Book 1 - Chapter 3:1-3 (160-220 A.D.)

I am aware that The Scripture Of Enoch which has assigned this order of action to angels, is not received by some, because it is not admitted into the Jewish canon either. I suppose they did not think that, having been published before the deluge, it could have safely survived that world-wide calamity, the abolisher of all things. If that is the reason for rejecting it, let them recall to their memory that Noah, the survivor of the deluge, was the great-grandson of Enoch himself; and he, of course, had heard and remembered, from domestic renown and hereditary tradition, concerning his own great-grandfather’s ‘grace in the sight of God,’ (Genesis 6:8) and concerning all his preachings; since Enoch had given no other charge to Methuselah than that he should hand on the knowledge of them to his posterity. Noah therefore, no doubt, might have succeeded in the trusteeship of his preaching; or, had the case been otherwise, he would not have been silent alike concerning the disposition of things made by God, his Preserver, and concerning the particular glory of his own house.
“If Noah had not had this conservative power by so short a route, there would still be this consideration to warrant our assertion of the genuineness of this Scripture: he could equally have renewed it, under the Spirit’s inspiration, after it had been destroyed by the violence of the deluge, as, after the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonian storming of it, every document of the Jewish literature is generally agreed to have been restored through Ezra.
But since Enoch in the same Scripture has preached likewise concerning the Lord, nothing at all must be rejected by us which pertains to us; and we read that ‘every Scripture suitable for edification is divinely inspired.’ (2 Timothy 3:16) By the Jews it may now seem to have been rejected for that very reason, just like all the other portions nearly which tell of Christ. Nor, of course, is this fact wonderful, that they did not receive some Scriptures which spake of Him whom even in person, speaking in their presence, they were not to receive. To these considerations is added the fact that Enoch possesses a testimony in the Apostle Jude.” (Jude 1:14-15)

CHURCH FATHERS: On the Apparel of Women (Tertullian)





2. • Tertullian - On the Apparel of Women - Book 2 - Chapter 10 - (160-220 A.D.)

But, if the self-same angels who disclosed both the material substances of this kind and their charms— of gold, I mean, and lustrous stones— and taught men how to work them, and by and by instructed them, among their other (instructions), in (the virtues of) eyelid-powder and the dyeings of fleeces, have been condemned by God, As Enoch Tells Us, how shall we please God while we joy in the things of those (angles) who, on these accounts, have provoked the anger and the vengeance of God?

CHURCH FATHERS: On the Apparel of Women (Tertullian)





Tertullian Quoting 1 Enoch 99:6-7


3. • Tertullian - On Idolatry - Chapter 4 (160-220 A.D.)

Enoch had preceded, predicting that the demons, and the spirits of the angelic apostates, would turn into idolatry all the elements, all the garniture of the universe, all things contained in the heaven, in the sea, in the earth, that they might be consecrated as God, in opposition to God. All things, therefore, does human error worship, except the Founder of all Himself. The images of those things are idols; the consecration of the images is idolatry. Whatever guilt idolatry incurs, must necessarily be imputed to every artificer of every idol. In short, the same Enoch fore-condemns in general menace both idol-worshippers and idol-makers together. And again: "I swear to you, sinners, that against the day of perdition of blood repentance is being prepared. You who serve stones, and you who make images of gold, and silver, and wood, and stones and clay, and serve phantoms, and demons, and spiritsin fanes, and all errors not according to knowledge, shall find no help from them "

• Tertullian - On Idolatry - Chapter 4 (160-220 A.D.)

CHURCH FATHERS: On Idolatry (Tertullian)


And again I swear to you, ye sinners, that sin is prepared for a day of unceasing bloodshed. And they who worship stones, and grave images of gold and silver and wood (and stone) and clay, and those who worship impure spirits and demons, and all kinds of idols not according to knowledge, shall get no manner of help from them.

• 1 Enoch 99:6-7

Books of Enoch





4. • Origen - de Principiis - Book 1 - Chapter 3 - Section 3 (185-254 A.D.)

That all things were created by God, and that there is no creature which exists but has derived from Him its being, is established from many declarations of Scripture; those assertions being refuted and rejected which are falsely alleged by some respecting the existence either of a matter co-eternal with God, or of unbegotten souls, in which they would have it that God implanted not so much the power of existence, as equality and order. For even in that little treatise called The Pastor or Angel of Repentance, composed by Hennas, we have the following: "First of all, believe that there is one God who created and arranged all things; who, when nothing formerly existed, caused all things to be; who Himself contains all things, but Himself is contained by none." And In The Book Of Enoch Also We Have Similar Descriptions.

ANF4 Prologue of Rufinus, Book I





5. • Anatolius (3rd Century)- Ante Nicene Fathers - Book 6 - Section 5

But I shall pass on without demanding such copious demonstrations (on subjects ) from which the veil of the Mosaic law has been removed; for now it remains for us with unveiled face to behold ever as in a glass Christ Himself and the doctrines and sufferings of Christ. But that the first month among the Hebrews is about the equinox, Is Clearly Shown Also By What Is Taught In The Book Of Enoch.

ANF6 Anatolius and Minor Writers Translator's Biographical Notice.
 
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Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

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* 1 Enoch Scriptures that Glorify Yeshua Messiah:



And at that hour that Son of Man was named In the presence of the Lord of Spirits,
And His Name before the Head of Days.

Yea, before the sun and the signs were created,
Before the stars of the heaven were made,
His Name was named before the Lord of Spirits.

He shall be a staff to the righteous whereon to stay themselves and not fall,
And He Shall Be The Light Of The Gentiles,
And The Hope Of Those Who Are Troubled Of Heart.

All Who Dwell On Earth Shall Fall Down And Worship Before Him,

And will praise and bless and celebrate with song the Lord of Spirits.

And for this reason hath He been chosen and hidden before Him,
Before the creation of the world and for evermore.

• 1 Enoch 48:2-6





And from henceforth there shall be nothing corruptible;
For That Son of Man has appeared,
And Has Seated Himself On The Throne Of His Glory,

And all evil shall pass away before His Face,
And the word of that Son of Man shall go forth

And be strong before the Lord of Spirits.

• 1 Enoch 69:29





And there was great joy amongst them,
And they blessed and glorified and extolled
Because the name of that Son of Man had been revealed unto them.

And He Sat On The Throne Of His Glory,

And The Sum of Judgement Was Given Unto The Son Of Man,
And He
caused the sinners to pass away and be destroyed from off the face of the earth,
And those who have led the world astray.

• 1 Enoch 69:26-27





On that day Mine Elect One shall sit on the throne of glory
And shall try their works,

And their places of rest shall be innumerable.

And their souls shall grow strong within them when they see Mine Elect Ones,
And those who have called upon My glorious name:
Then will I cause Mine Elect One to dwell among them.

And I will transform the heaven and make it an eternal blessing and light
• 1 Enoch 45:3-4





And there I saw One who had a head of days,
And His head was white like wool,
And with Him was another being whose countenance had the appearance of a man,
And his face was full of graciousness, like one of the holy angels.

And I asked the angel who went with me and showed me all the hidden things, concerning that Son of Man, who He was, and whence He was, (and) why He went with the Head of Days? And he answered and said unto me:
This is The Son Of Man who hath righteousness,
With whom dwelleth righteousness,
And who revealeth all the treasures of that which is hidden,


Because the Lord of Spirits hath chosen Him,
And whose lot hath the pre-eminence before the Lord of Spirits in uprightness for ever.

And this Son of Man whom thou hast seen
Shall raise up the kings and the mighty from their seats,
[And the strong from their thrones]
And shall loosen the reins of the strong,
And break the teeth of the sinners.

And He shall put down the kings from their thrones and kingdoms]
Because they do not extol and praise Him,
Nor humbly acknowledge whence the kingdom was bestowed upon them.
And He shall put down the countenance of the strong,
And shall fill them with shame.

And darkness shall be their dwelling,
And worms shall be their bed,
And they shall have no hope of rising from their beds,
Because they do not extol the name of the Lord of Spirits.

And these are they who judge the stars of heaven,
[And raise their hands against the Most High],
And tread upon the earth and dwell upon it.
And all their deeds manifest unrighteousness,
And their power rests upon their riches,
And their faith is in the gods which they have made with their hands,
And they deny the name of the Lord of Spirits,

And they persecute the houses of His congregations,
And the faithful who hang upon the name of the Lord of Spirits.

• 1 Enoch 46







For wisdom is poured out like water,
And glory faileth not before Him for evermore.

For He is mighty in all the secrets of righteousness,
And unrighteousness shall disappear as a shadow,
And have no continuance;
Because The Elect One standeth before the Lord of Spirits,
And His Glory Is For Ever And Ever,
And His Might Unto All Generations.


And In Him dwells the spirit of wisdom,
And the spirit which gives insight,
And the spirit of understanding and of might,
And the spirit of those who have fallen asleep in righteousness.

And He shall judge the secret things,
And none shall be able to utter a lying word before
Him;
For He Is The Elect One before the Lord of Spirits according to His good pleasure.


• 1 Enoch 49





When the congregation of the righteous shall appear,
And sinners shall be judged for their sins,
And shall be driven from the face of the earth:

And when the Righteous One shall appear before the eyes of the righteous,
Whose elect works hang upon the Lord of Spirits,
And light shall appear to the righteous and the elect who dwell on the earth,

• 1 Enoch 38:1-2



And in those days shall the earth also give back that which has been entrusted to it,
And Sheol also shall give back that which it has received,
And hell shall give back that which it owes.

For in those days The Elect One Shall Arise,
And He shall choose the righteous and holy from among them:
For the day has drawn nigh That They Should Be Saved.


And The Elect One shall In Those Days Sit On My Throne,
And His mouth shall pour forth all the secrets of wisdom and counsel:

For the Lord of Spirits hath given (them) to Him and hath Glorified Him.


• 1 Enoch 51:1-3





“Behold! My Servant whom I uphold,
My Elect One in whom My soul delights!
I have put My Spirit upon Him;
He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.
He will not cry out, nor raise His voice,

• Isaiah 42:1



Books of Enoch
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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Since you raise the issue of canon, I will jump in...

There is a truism that says there is no doctrine of canonization in the books of the Bible. We might wish there was a divine table of contents or maybe even a chapter in there giving guidelines for choosing the right books to include in either a tome or a collection of inspired writings.
Do you believe God's Purpose and Will produced the Bible we have today? Or are these things beyond His influence?
 
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yeshuasavedme

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In the Dead Sea Scrolls, there is a manuscript that is called The Genesis Apocryphon, and In it a portion written by Abraham states that he read the book of Enoch to the wise men of pharaoh, who had returned Sarah to him and asked him to teach them "wisdom values and truth", so he writes, "I read to them from the book of Enoch".
 
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yeshuasavedme

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Job was familiar with the doctrines taught in the Book of Enoch, before even Moses had written the Law. The doctrine of the Redeemer whom he would see in his own resurrected flesh with his own eyes, and who would stand on the earth in the "last day" -the millennial day, and other doctrines written in the book of Enoch, were very familiar to Job and his friends.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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Moses was very familiar with the Book of Enoch. Enoch laid The foundational doctrines of the word that Moses did not re-lay, but which foundation Moses used as an established truth upon which he wrote his book.
Moses knew the facts written there, and references to the rock solid truths revealed by Enoch are made by Moses, who references the things learned in Enoch, alone, as to the doctrines of the Word, and builds upon them.
Moses also references things from the written histories of the Patriarchs, of which there remain fragments of copies of those writings in the DSS.
 
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DamianWarS

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Do you really believe a book can only be as old as the oldest copy of it that exists? That would mean Isaiah and Moses are myths. That would mean the New Testament was written in the 3rd & 4th centuries AD and is therefore not Apostalic. Really?Actually, there is a problem with the Ethiopic text in that verse. Scholars have corrected Enoch 7:2 to a better text. The verse says nothing about the stature of the giants, instead it reads, “And they conceived from them and bore to them great giants. And the giants begot Nephilim, and to the Nephilim were born Elioud- and they were growing in accordance with their greatness."

I've been paying a little more attention to Enoch as of late and one issue I find inconsistent is that it has a very developed sense of Hell (Sheol, abyss, Tartarus, etc..) and much of it seems to be influenced by Greek mythology. Now one could say the greeks copied the book of Enoch not the other way around... perhaps but it's understanding of hell is well beyond any OT book and it demands the question why?

In the OT Sheol is a mysterious place of the dead where all pass through and no book offers any insight as to what this place is; it is a place of ignorance and mystery liken to death itself or metaphorically with depression. Than there is the Book of Enoch which apparently pre-dates any book of the bible but has a laser focus on Hell that is unparalleled to the rest of scripture. It's concept of Hell is simply far beyond its time and is vastly different than the Sheol presented in the OT.

The bible actually offers us very little knowledge of what Heaven and Hell is and I've always said this is because it is written for the living not the dead, it gives is broad strokes but not fine detail... well for Enoch it seems to flip this focus which is very counter-focus from the rest of scripture.

The question needs to be asked if this is a pre-flood text why did it have no apparent influence on OT authors especially with its highly developed sense of Hell. OT authors were very ignorant of the afterlife but why should they have been if they were exposed to the Book of Enoch? I think the weight of all this points to the book of Enoch as a hellenistic pseudepigrapha text heavily influenced by greek mythology and some sort of infatuation with the pre-flood myth-like accounts.
 
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