Hillsage

One 4 Him & Him 4 all
Site Supporter
Jun 12, 2009
5,244
1,767
The land of OZ
✟322,350.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
We believe the 11 disciples were born-again
in John 20:23, and they probably led some
of the 120 to the Lord ... prior to Pentecost.
The NLT calls the 120 believers and brothers!
I believe that they were born again too, with the "the promise of the Spirit", but that spirit was the Spirit of Christ in them and not the Holy Spirit.

And in John 20:22 Jesus wasn't giving them the Holy Spirit, He was speaking a prophetic word to them as to how to know it was coming and be received.

JOH 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed/emphusao on them, and saith unto them, Receive/lambano ye the Holy Ghost:

1720 emphusao: to blow at or on
2983 lambano: a prol. form of a prim. verb, which is used only as an alt. in certain tenses; to take

The day of Pentecost, the feast established for the coming of the Holy Spirit, they heard the 'rushing mighty wind' (blowing breath of God) and they first spoke in prayer tongues from their born again spirits. Then when the crowd was drawn by that "noise/sound" which made them sound like "drunks" the Holy Spirit moved upon them with one of His "gift of tongues" manifestation, and they heard them speaking in the languages of men.

ACT 2:6 Now when this was noised/phone abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

5456 phone: a tone (articulate, bestial or artificial); by impl. an address (for any purpose), saying or language

I can say more, but I'll stop there. And please don't just answer with 'an opinion'. Refute what I've shared or I'm really not interested in dialoguing.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Gregory Thompson

Change is inevitable, feel free to spare some.
Site Supporter
Dec 20, 2009
28,369
7,745
Canada
✟722,927.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Married
I recall that Jesus prayed to the Father that we be made one as they are, "I in you, and you in me, so the whole world will know that you sent me"

Not sure what your definition of mystical is, but it there is unity congruent to the trinity style of unity among all members. You know, if Jesus prayed prayers that were actually answered with a yes and amen.
 
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,462
26,891
Pacific Northwest
✟732,309.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
1 Corinthians 10:16-17

We receive Christ's body and blood in the Eucharist.
In the Eucharist we are united together in Christ.
United in Christ as His body here together.

Jesus, the Church, and the Eucharist are all linked together here.

Yes, to describe the Church as the mystical body of Christ is accurate; because the "mystical" refers to the mystery of our unity together with and in Christ--all brought together at Christ's table where we receive Christ's flesh and blood.

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0

BCsenior

Still an evangelist
Aug 31, 2017
2,980
715
British Columbia
✟72,426.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
... at Christ's table where we receive Christ's flesh and blood.
The emblems represent Christ's flesh and blood.

Our full immersion water baptism represents
Christ's death, burial, and resurrection.

Our overcoming of sin/the world/the devil/death
represents (parallels,copies) what Jesus overcame.
He said such people are the overcomers!
(see Revelation 3:21).
 
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,462
26,891
Pacific Northwest
✟732,309.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
The emblems represent Christ's flesh and blood.

Our full immersion water baptism represents
Christ's death, burial, and resurrection.

That's not what Scripture says.

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,462
26,891
Pacific Northwest
✟732,309.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Easy for you to say.
What does Scripture say?

Concerning the Eucharist:

"And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, 'This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.' And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, 'This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.'" - Luke 22:19-20

"The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread." - 1 Corinthians 10:16-17

"For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, 'This is my body, which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.' In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, 'This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.' For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.

Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord.
" - 1 Corinthians 11:23-27

Concerning Baptism:

"And Peter said to them, 'Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.'" - Acts of the Apostles 2:38

"Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.
" - Romans 6:3-5

"For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ." - Galatians 3:27

"In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead." - Colossians 2:11-12

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0

BCsenior

Still an evangelist
Aug 31, 2017
2,980
715
British Columbia
✟72,426.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
"And Peter said to them, 'Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.'" - Acts of the Apostles 2:38

"For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ." - Galatians 3:27
Okay, good, you do have a Bible after all.
2:38 ... What gift?
3:27 ... What baptism?
 
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,462
26,891
Pacific Northwest
✟732,309.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

BCsenior

Still an evangelist
Aug 31, 2017
2,980
715
British Columbia
✟72,426.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
As the text says, the Holy Spirit.
As the text says, baptism.
But, it is always necessary to understand the text!
Black on white might be pretty to you, but it's useless
if one doesn't understand what is actually being said!
It's all about intellectual vs. spiritual understanding.

2:38 ... The gift (and the promise also) both
always refer to the baptism with the Holy Spirit,
which has nothing at all to do with the Holy Spirit
coming INSIDE when one first receives the Spirit,
i.e. the born-again experience.
(However, the 120 did experience both
on the Day of Pentecost, Act 2:1-4.)
8 different NT verses describe this special baptism
as one where the Holy Spirit comes UPON.

3:27 ... This is referring to when a person first
receives the Holy Spirit, as first described here:
"For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body — whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free — and have all been made to drink into one Spirit." (1 Corinthians 12:13)
The new BAC hereby is baptized into the church body.
No water anywhere in sight, sorry.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,462
26,891
Pacific Northwest
✟732,309.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
But, it is always necessary to understand the text!
Black on white might be pretty to you, but it's useless
if one doesn't understand what is actually being said!
It's all about intellectual vs. spiritual understanding.

2:38 ... The gift (and the promise also) both
always refer to the baptism with the Holy Spirit,
which has nothing at all to do with the Holy Spirit
coming INSIDE when one first receives the Spirit,
i.e. the born-again experience.
(However, the 120 did experience both
on the Day of Pentecost, Act 2:1-4.)
8 different NT verses describe this special baptism
as one where the Holy Spirit comes UPON.

Simply making things up isn't understanding the text. Understanding the text is reading it and what it is saying.

In Acts chapter 1 Jesus alludes back to when St. John the Baptist had said, "the One who comes after me will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire". Jesus tells His disciples that this will happen "not many days from now", and so they are to remain in Jerusalem for the Holy Spirit--the promise from His Father, as He said, "I will not leave you as orphans" and "I will ask the Father and He will send you another Comforter". They would receive power from the Holy Spirit to be His witnesses, beginning in Jerusalem, then into Judea and Samaria, and unto the ends of the earth.

After Jesus ascended, His followers remained in Jerusalem until the Jewish Feast of Shavu'ot, aka Pentecost. When, as Jesus said, the Holy Spirit fell en masse upon all gathered in the upper room. This was in fulfillment that they would be baptized with the Holy Spirit.

Peter, filled with the power of the Holy Spirit, thus spoke up and preached to the gathered Jewish pilgrims, explaining to them all God had accomplished through Jesus Christ, and that they were His witnesses to these things. He then instructs them, "Repent and be baptized, all of you, in the name of the Lord Jesus for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" That is, they would receive the Holy Spirit, the gift and promise of the Father. And we read that about three thousand were baptized into the Church that day.

This baptism with the Holy Spirit is what we see transpiring on Pentecost for those gathered in the upper room. Indeed, at no point in all of Scripture is "baptism with the Holy Spirit" ever treated as some kind of interior, private, and personal experience and individual receives. Scripture designates only two instances with "the baptism with the Holy Spirit" the most obvious one being, of course, what took place on Pentecost, which inaugurated the Church into her sacred mission in the world. The second instance does not happen until Acts chapter 10, where St. Peter having received a vision, is then asked to go and visit with a Roman centurion named Cornelius at his house. While Peter was speaking with them, an amazing thing happened: what had transpired on Pentecost happened a second time, this time for the Gentiles here in Cornelius' household. Peter instantly understood the significance of this, and had the entire household baptized and they were added to the Church. Peter explains all these things in Acts chapter 11, explaining that as God had done for the Gentiles what He had done with the disciples in the beginning, it was obvious that this was God's sign for them that Gentiles were to be included in the Christian mission.

And that's it. There is nothing else, in all of Scripture, which identifies "baptism with the Holy Spirit" with anything other than these two very important historical instances.

3:27 ... This is referring to when a person first
receives the Holy Spirit, as first described here:
"For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body — whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free — and have all been made to drink into one Spirit." (1 Corinthians 12:13)
The new BAC hereby is baptized into the church body.
No water anywhere in sight, sorry.

And your assumption that "For by one Spirit were were all baptized into one body" is anything other than regular baptism is just that, an assumption. A bias based upon the traditions of men, and not on the word of God and the historic teaching of the Christian Church.

I'm not impressed by people making things up instead of just taking the Scriptures for what they are saying. So you'll have to try harder than that if you want to me throw away two thousand years of apostolic, biblical, and orthodox Christian teaching.

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0

BCsenior

Still an evangelist
Aug 31, 2017
2,980
715
British Columbia
✟72,426.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Simply making things up isn't understanding the text. Understanding the text is reading it and what it is saying.
I'm not impressed by people making things up instead of just taking the Scriptures for what they are saying. So you'll have to try harder than that if you want to me throw away two thousand years of apostolic, biblical, and orthodox Christian teaching.
Many thanks for the laugh! ... mucho appreciado!
(My version of Spanish, or whatever)
 
Upvote 0

BCsenior

Still an evangelist
Aug 31, 2017
2,980
715
British Columbia
✟72,426.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
The gift (and the promise also) both
always refer to the baptism with the Holy Spirit, which has nothing at all to do with the Holy Spirit coming INSIDE when one first receives the Spirit,
i.e. the born-again experience.
(However, the 120 did experience both
on the Day of Pentecost, Act 2:1-4.)
8 different NT verses describe this special baptism
as one where the Holy Spirit comes UPON.
For those endeavoring to understand
"the baptism with the Holy Spirit"
where the Spirit comes UPON,
here are the pertinent verses:
Luke 24:49, Acts 1:4-8, Acts 2:1-4, Acts 2:33-39,
Acts 8:14-19, Acts 10:44-48, Acts 11:15-17, 19:5-6
 
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,462
26,891
Pacific Northwest
✟732,309.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Many thanks for the laugh! ... mucho appreciado!
(My version of Spanish, or whatever)

I assume that means that you aren't able to provide a meaningful rebuttal of the arguments raised.

-CryptoLutheran
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Tigger45
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,462
26,891
Pacific Northwest
✟732,309.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Truly, thou art so bad for my health!
I can't stop laughing.
... Oh yes, the rebuttal is in #54!

That wasn't a rebuttal. That was a string of passages that you failed to offer any explanation or argument for as to why you think they support your position.

If you can't be bothered to do anything constructive or even bring yourself to trying to defend your position, then I fail to see any reason for you and I to continue any dialogue on the matter.

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0

BCsenior

Still an evangelist
Aug 31, 2017
2,980
715
British Columbia
✟72,426.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
That wasn't a rebuttal. That was a string of passages that you failed to offer any explanation or argument for as to why you think they support your position.
Thou hast to be able to read them
and understand what they are saying!
Sorry, but I cannot do everything for you.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

BCsenior

Still an evangelist
Aug 31, 2017
2,980
715
British Columbia
✟72,426.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
How long should I wait?
Please forgive me for not getting back to you YET!

I still have a bad cold, and I was going to delve into this
with my retired pentecostal/charismatic pastor
(of 44 years) friend, but the meeting got cancelled!
Next meeting is set for Thursday (6 days away).
Perhaps, I can tackle it myself ... because
I don't want to be held responsible for your death
due to your holding your breath too long!
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0