The Body of Christ is not mystical

[BCsenior]

You have that view seemingly...I don't.

"seemingly"? ... Maybe you are just trying to be tactful?
This is evidence of why many people cannot understand the Bible. (Ever hear of people being "dumbed down" through the education system?)

People had better give up trying to understand the Bible just through their intellect and reading it ... they had better just start relying on the Holy Spirit for spiritual understanding of these spiritual things!

 

[Billy Evmur]

"seemingly"? ... Maybe you are just trying to be tactful?
This is evidence of why many people cannot understand the Bible. (Ever hear of people being "dumbed down" through the education system?)

People had better give up trying to understand the Bible just through their intellect and reading it ... they had better just start relying on the Holy Spirit for spiritual understanding of these spiritual things!

Start a new thread on that topic.

 

[Hillsage]

There are 7 (and ONLY 7) verses in the NT,
which show that the Spirit comes UPON those
who are receiving the baptism with the Holy Spirit!
IMO, this happened to the 120, and countless others
also have had the "simultaneous" experience!

Though I agree with most of what you just said, I don't know of 7 verses proving it. Please quote them for me. Also I don't understand what you're saying concerning the simultaneous experience. I believe you receive the holy spirit of Christ 'in you' upon being born again and SUBSEQUENTLY you receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit coming upon you with supernatural power manifesting through you. I think both events can be very close in time, or far apart (my testimony), but not really 'simultaneously'.

The Holy Spirit baptizes BACs into the church ...
1 Cor 12:13.

I agree, but that baptism is a baptism "into the body". And that body is the 'body of Christ' and IMO that spirit is the spirit of Christ. IOW the baptism isn't the Holy Spirit but a holy spirit. And it is the same holy Christ spirit which the Holy Spirit put in Jesus. And it was 'that Christ spirit' which made Jesus the 'Son of God'. So also do we become sons of God (in spirit) after we are born again. And it matters not is you are a MALE or a FEMALE, it is the spirit of Christ that allows MEN and WOMEN to be 'spiritual sons'.

Jesus baptizes some BACs with the baptism with the
Holy Spirit, which is a special anointing of spiritual
power for ministry of some kind. (IMO, this is always
accompanied by some tongues as a confirmation.)

I agree, Jesus is the baptizer but we aren't baptized with the Holy Spirit. We are baptized with' holy spirit' power FROM the 'Holy Spirit' of God.

May I ask: have you experienced Jesus' baptism?
If so, what ministry, what spiritual power gifts, etc.?

Yes I have. 'Long testimony...short'
In 1972 I was selling drugs, drawing unemployment and working one night a week in a bar for cash (so I wouldn't lose my unemployment check). A girl came in and invited me to her house to hear a 'Jesus Freak' lay a rap on us. She thought I'd get a kick out of it. I went and knocked on the door. She opened and was shocked it was me. I had a reputation and she never thought I'd come. She welcomed me in and turned around and bumped into 'Jack'. She said; "Oh Jack this is D. D this is Jack, he's speaking tonight. Jack stuck his hand out and said; "Hi D I'm glad to meet you." I reached out and when our hands touched, I felt something 'invisible' lightly hit me in the chest. God had my attention. I left that night and led myself to the Lord. 6 months later I was led into the baptism of supernatural power from the Holy Spirit, with the evidence of tongues. We started a home group that night with the couple who had ministered it to 5 of us. Art and Kathy began mentoring us 3 nights a week for the next 2 years. 6 months after we started Art was teaching on water baptism. I felt the Holy Spirit convict me as to my need to be water baptized (since I was infant sprinkled). I told Art and, the other 4 said they also wanted to be re-baptized (they were raised Lutherans). So Art took us to the Arkansas river and baptized all 5 of us. So my testimony is like that of the first Gentiles at the house of Cornelius. Spirit baptized with tongues first and water baptized second. So I hope that helps you understand, a little better, about me.

 

[Billy Evmur]

Nice testimony.

I was saved and baptised in the Holy Ghost in one go, but they are still 2 distinct works. I was saved in my own home with no-one around. God is good.

 

[Hillsage]

Nice testimony.

I was saved and baptised in the Holy Ghost in one go, but they are still 2 distinct works. I was saved in my own home with no-one around. God is good.

Thanks Billy. But like I said that was really the short version. Your salvation and Holy Ghost experience without anyone around is pretty special too I think. And, yes HE is. and again I say.

 

[BCsenior]

Though I agree with most of what you just said, I don't know of 7 verses proving it. Please quote them for me.

The 7 verses where it is clearly stated that
the Holy Spirit comes UPON a person when
he/she is receiving the baptism with the Holy Spirit:
1 Luke 24:49 ------ 8 Acts 8:14-19
2 Acts 1:4-8 ------ 9 Acts 9:17-18
3 Acts 2:1-4 ----- 10 Romans 15:19
4 Acts 2:33-39 --- 11 Acts 10:44-48
5 Acts 4:8-16 ---- 12 Acts 11:15-17
6 Acts 4:31 ------ 13 Acts 14:3
7 Acts 5:12-16 ----14 Acts 19:5-6
------------------- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14
the Promise --------Y-Y---Y-------------------------
baptism with H.S. ----Y-------------Y--------Y-----Y
the gift -----------------Y---------------Y--Y------
upon ---------------Y Y Y---------Y-------Y--Y-----Y
laying on of hands ---------------Y-Y-----------Y--Y
filled with H.S. -------Y---Y-Y-----Y---------------
received H.S. --------------------Y-------Y---------
speaking tongues -------Y-----------------Y--------Y
power --------------Y-Y-----------Y----Y------------
boldness -------------------Y-Y-----------------Y---
miracles -------------------Y---Y---Y--Y--------Y---
IMO, not everything that happened when a person
was baptized with the Holy Spirit was recorded ...
wouldn't that require a lot of needless repetition?
But, this is not to say that all of these things happened
in every instance because they obviously did not.

 

[BCsenior]

I agree, Jesus is the baptizer but we aren't baptized with the Holy Spirit.
We are baptized with' holy spirit' power FROM the 'Holy Spirit' of God.

John the Baptist proclaimed that ...
Jesus is the One who "baptizes with the Holy Spirit"
(Matthew 3:11, Mark 1:8, Luke 3:16, John 1:33).
I use the language of the NT (NKJV).

 

[BCsenior]

Several testimonies are being given out lately!
Here's the super-short version of mine,
re: receiving the baptism with the Holy Spirit:

In USA • In 1993, I received the baptism with the Holy Spirit. (About 9 years prior, I had been born again from above where God’s Spirit comes inside.) This was during a Sunday night service; I was up at the front, and everyone was praying for me to receive this baptism of spiritual power. Minutes later, I heard a LOUD angelic choir singing with LOUD instruments! My pastor said that I said a few words in tongues. Later, I kept repeating, “They all had microphones!”. It turned out that about half of the 15 of us present heard the angelic choir and the instruments “in the spirit”, and the proof of this was they certainly were NOT on the tape recording of the meeting.

 

[Hillsage]

The 7 verses where it is clearly stated that the Holy Spirit comes UPON a person when he/she is receiving the baptism with the Holy Spirit:

Your POST answer is confusing, because that was never the question being asked by me. Remember I'm asking you to prove you get 'the Holy Spirit' within you (even according to your last 'post's testimony) and 'simutaneously' get the Holy Spirit upon you. If that is even what you meant about 'simultaneously' receiving before. That was my question for you to answer. Here it is again.

HS said; Also I don't understand what you're saying concerning the simultaneous experience. I believe you receive the holy spirit of Christ 'in you' upon being born again and SUBSEQUENTLY you receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit coming upon you with supernatural power manifesting through you. I think both events can be very close in time, or far apart (my testimony), but not really 'simultaneously'.

Remember now, that my position is you don't get 'the Holy Spirit' from God, dwelling within your body.....ever. But you do get 'a holy spirit' from God dwelling in you and that is the spirit of Christ.

1 Luke 24:49 ------ 8 Acts 8:14-19
2 Acts 1:4-8 ------ 9 Acts 9:17-18
3 Acts 2:1-4 ----- 10 Romans 15:19
4 Acts 2:33-39 --- 11 Acts 10:44-48
5 Acts 4:8-16 ---- 12 Acts 11:15-17
6 Acts 4:31 ------ 13 Acts 14:3
7 Acts 5:12-16 ----14 Acts 19:5-6

So for brevity's sake just let me go through the first few verse quotes from your list to show why I no longer believe them like you. I will do so from presenting my POV, showing why I now disagree with what 'I too' had been taught to believe.

LUK 24:49 And behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you; but stay in the city, until you are clothed with power from on high."

Please note that Luke 24:49 says nothing about the "promise" being the Holy Spirit. In fact it says what I say, that we receive supernatural "power from on high" and 'the Holy Spirit' as a 'person' isn't even mentioned in your quoted verse or even in the biblical context.

And that 'power only' understanding is given again in your next quoted verses Acts 1:4-8. establishing 'again' what is to take place. They were to wait for the promise. Again nothing said about whether it's 'holy spirit' power or the 'Holy Spirit' person.

ACT 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

Let me also point out a misunderstanding of this Greek word TOU above which gets translated as "of the". This Greek word does not say 'the promise of the Father', means you are getting 'the Father'. Neither does that Greek word say that in 'the baptism of the Holy Spirit' you are getting the Holy Spirit. We're talking about a 'promise FROM THE the Father' and a 'baptism FROM THE the Holy Spirit'. I believe it is a baptism of supernatural POWER which agrees with Luke and your next quoted verses in Acts.

ACT 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

IOW you are receiving/manifesting supernatural holy spirit power (entity) which is coming FROM the Holy Spirit (person). Do you see that difference? Do you think it is your spirit speaking tongues? Or are the tongues spoken 'your spirit'? Does the Holy Spirit manifest tongues through you, or are those 'tongues' the person of THE Holy Spirit.

Then we go to Acts 2:33.

Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

So Peter is telling them they received 'the promise OF POWER' from the Father. A POWER which was FROM the Holy Spirit. And it was a POWER which all those standing there could "see and hear". I hope you follow what I'm saying.

IMO, not everything that happened when a person

was baptized with the Holy Spirit was recorded ...
wouldn't that require a lot of needless repetition?
But, this is not to say that all of these things happened
in every instance because they obviously did not.

I agree, but then everything that represented 'supernatural power' being manifested from either your born again holy spirit speaking in prayer tongues, or the Holy Spirit subsequently manifesting supernatural tongues or miraculous prophesies ARE the manifested signs FROM the 'person' of your spirit or God's Spirit. Would you not agree?

 

[Hillsage]

John the Baptist proclaimed that ...
Jesus is the One who "baptizes with the Holy Spirit"
(Matthew 3:11, Mark 1:8, Luke 3:16, John 1:33).
I use the language of the NT (NKJV).

But that was also the language of indoctrination. And it was from a 'time' when translators knew nothing experientially about the understanding we now have as Pentecostals and Charismatics.

There is something you should consider when reading every one of your 4 posted verses. It is best if you read them in a Greek Interlinear to clearly see what I'm about to share. In an Interlinear you will see that the translators did a bit of 'interpreting' which went beyond their indoctrinated POV. They added the definite article in the English when it never should have been. Below is an example of what I'm talking about, in an English sentence.

"Oh my Billy that is a nasty cut. Lucky for you THE doctor is in the office, let's have him doctor that up for you."

As you can see, by adding the definite article (THE) before the word, makes doctor a person. But leaving the definite article out makes it what a doctor does. I'm going to quote every one of your posted verses and put the definite article in parenthesis and italicize it (the) pointing out how that changes every thing. If the definite article IS in the Greek I'll just capitalize and underline it THE.

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with (the) Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Mark 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with (the) Holy Ghost.

Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with (the) Holy Ghost and with fire:

In this last verse you quote, you will see scripture defining a difference between the person of THE Holy Spirit and why it should read baptizeth with holy spirit (the power).

John 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw THE Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. :33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see THE Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with (the) Holy Ghost.

I have a study bible called the Companion Study Bible which includes 52 times in scripture that the translators incorrectly translated the words spirit or holy spirit by capitalizing them. All four of the verses you quoted are in that list, for the very reason I spelled out.

The point being when we pray 'in Jesus Name/authority' for something to be done by THE Holy Spirit through us, the authority for 'the power' is from Jesus the baptizer, but holy spirit power itself, comes from THE Holy Spirit himself.

 

[BCsenior]

The point being when we pray 'in Jesus Name/authority' for something to be done by THE Holy Spirit through us, the authority for 'the power' is from Jesus the baptizer, but holy spirit power itself, comes from THE Holy Spirit himself.

Yes, I know that Jesus in Himself had no spiritual power, but all of the spiritual manifestations were performed by the Holy Spirit.

 

[RDKirk]

Yes, I know that Jesus in Himself had no spiritual power, but all of the spiritual manifestations were performed by the Holy Spirit.

I would not say that.

Nor did Jesus Himself ever say that. Everything He said indicated that His miracles were from the Father through Him.

He said that the Holy Spirit would come after He'd left, and could not come until He had left.

 

[BCsenior]

Everything He said indicated that His miracles were from the Father through Him.

The Holy Spirit is all over and around Jesus in the gospels!
I'm almost positive I saw in Luke that Jesus could not do any miracles at that time because the Holy Spirit was not present, but I cannot find it now!
Musta dreamt it.

 

[RDKirk]

The Holy Spirit is all over and around Jesus in the gospels!
I'm almost positive I saw in Luke that Jesus could not do any miracles at that time because the Holy Spirit was not present, but I cannot find it now!
Musta dreamt it.

That was when He visited an area of Samaria where He could not do many miracles because of the unbelief of the people.

What Jesus said was:

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. -- John 16:7

Jesus performed His miracles though the power and authority of His own Person.

 

[BCsenior]

Jesus performed His miracles though the power and authority of His own Person.

One of the reasons the Word came was
to teach BACs how to live their lives!
And one of the things Jesus showed us to do
was to rely on the Holy Spirit to perform SWMs.
Jesus prayed all of the time for direction, guidance, discernment, power for SWMs ... everything!
Just like we are supposed to do.
And most of this was done though the Holy Spirit.
Just like we are to expect also.

 

[Hillsage]

I would not say that.

Nor did Jesus Himself ever say that. Everything He said indicated that His miracles were from the Father through Him.

I agree. And would you not agree that the same thing is true today, if anyone is manifesting supernatural gifts from God? As ministering priests, we have one hand toward God and one hand toward man. We are merely the 'hose' through which 'the power of God' flows from the Holy Spirit and is ministered 'through us' to the one who receives a miracle from God....right?

He said that the Holy Spirit would come after He'd left, and could not come until He had left.

So, in essence you too agree with me then, that no one 'who was born again before Pentecost' ever had 'the Holy Spirit' dwelling in them...since He wouldn't come back until Pentecost....right?

 

[BCsenior]

We are merely the 'hose' through which 'the power of God' flows from the Holy Spirit and is ministered 'through us' to the one who receives a miracle from God....right?

Yes, the same as when Jesus ministered to the people.

 

[RDKirk]

I agree. And would you not agree that the same thing is true today, if anyone is manifesting supernatural gifts from God? As ministering priests, we have one hand toward God and one hand toward man. We are merely the 'hose' through which 'the power of God' flows from the Holy Spirit and is ministered 'through us' to the one who receives a miracle from God....right?

So, in essence you too agree with me then, that no one 'who was born again before Pentecost' ever had 'the Holy Spirit' dwelling in them...since He wouldn't come back until Pentecost....right?

No, because Jesus actually is a Person of God, possessing His own authority as such, and we are not.

 

[Hillsage]

No, because Jesus actually is a Person of God, possessing His own authority as such, and we are not.

This answer makes no sense concerning my post IMO. I asked three questions you provide one answer with nothing to support that opinion in scripture. Where does 'your opinion' above have any scriptural support. Let my refute of what you said just be an example of what I mean.

JOH 5:30 "I can do nothing on my own authority; as I hear, I judge; and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.

So how does this biblical statement of Jesus authority when he was on earth, fit what you just said? Back 'your opinion' with a scripture please. I just did.

HEB 2:17 Therefore he had to be made like his brethren in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make expiation for the sins of the people.

So, according to 'your opinion' above, Jesus had authority we don't, even though he was made like us 'his brethren in every respect', but with 'your' one exception being He is a "Person of God" but we are not????? Scripture please.

Personally, I thought that when I was born again I was a person child of God. Below is the verse supporting 'my opinion'.

1JO 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

And since I have "received him" and "believed on his name"; I actually even think I received the power to be 'a person/son of God'....according to scripture.

JOH 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

So, explain to me just how it is that I am not a 'person of God' according to your opinion', with access to all the authority that Jesus had, but do so with scripture please.

 

[BCsenior]

... no one 'who was born again before Pentecost' ever had 'the Holy Spirit' dwelling in them...since He wouldn't come back until Pentecost....right?

We believe the 11 disciples were born-again
in John 20:23, and they probably led some
of the 120 to the Lord ... prior to Pentecost.
The NLT calls the 120 believers and brothers!