The Body of Christ is not mystical

[Hillsage]

Please forgive me for not getting back to you YET!

I still have a bad cold, and I was going to delve into this
with my retired pentecostal/charismatic pastor
(of 44 years) friend, but the meeting got cancelled!
Next meeting is set for Thursday (6 days away).
Perhaps, I can tackle it myself ... because
I don't want to be held responsible for your death
due to your holding your breath too long!

I'm not holding my breath. But your explanation certainly helps avoid looking like you're just ignoring me and hoping I'll forget, because you can't come back with anything scripturally to refute my points. And having read you and 'the 1century lady' on your thread, I know you feel like my #41 post is "complicated". I covered several things in a very brief post. But I thought that I presented enough that you could study your way through at least some of it. And if not, I too welcome questions to help anyone understand where I'm coming from, even if you don't ever agree. But if you wish to show it to your pastor friend, that's certainly fine with me too. But you really should get his email to keep him abreast of how deeply I can elaborate on some 'barely supported' major statements like I made there.

I hope you recover from your cold.

 

[BCsenior]

I hope you recover from your cold.

Thanks, brother, at least we know where to find you!
Do you have a previous post somewhere w/more details,
'cause that one in post #41 was too much for me
to handle, especially with a bad cold.
You do have at least 3 of us charismatics who want to resolve this very interesting (to us) topic with you!

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

So when the evangelist says "Christ in YOU" and applies it to the individual that is an erroneous emphasis, when Paul spoke about "Christ in you" he meant the assembly. The assembly is the Body of Christ and we are members of His Body...to the Lone Rangers out there I appeal to you that you cannot function without your brothers and sisters.

Good post. Like EF Hutton, when the Son speaks, people better listen

Matthew 17:5
Still of-Him speaking, behold! a cloud, luminous upon-shadows them and behold! a Voice out of the cloud saying "this is the Son of Me, the Beloved, in whom I delight,
be ye hearing Him!". [Deut 28/Acts 3:22]

Acts 3:22
For Moses indeed toward the fathers saying: 'That a prophet to ye shall be raising up Lord, the God of ye out of the brothers of ye as Me.
Of Him ye shall be hearing, according to all as much as ever He should be speaking toward ye. [Deut 18]
=============
Each of these messengers of the 7 assemblies had to read the letters to the rest of the body of members:

Revelation 1:3
Blessed/happy the one reading, and the ones hearing, the words of the Prophecy and keepings in it having been written/gegrammena <1125> (5772),
That the time/season is nigh<1451>.

Revelation 2:18
‘And to the Messenger of the Assembly in Thyatira write!
These things saith the Son of the God, Who is having His eyes as a flame of fire
and His feet like to burnished bronze<5474>

Kindgdom Bible Studies Revelation Series
Part 46 THE CHURCH IN THYATIRA

The church in Thyatira has a longer message delivered to it from Jesus Christ than any of the seven churches

 

[Hillsage]

Thanks, brother, at least we know where to find you!
Do you have a previous post somewhere w/more details,
'cause that one in post #41 was too much for me
to handle, especially with a bad cold.
You do have at least 3 of us charismatics who want to resolve this very interesting (to us) topic with you!

OK, let me just start with some of the difficulties that I have found, and where even the scholars who wrote these 2 books 'below', talk about the difficulty they had as to when the word 'spirit' should, or should not, be capitalized. I'm just going to limit my post #41 to this one point for now.

Below is the information from two different books. The first is one of my Greek English Interlinear books, and the second is from a second book I've mentioned here on CF several times. It is Word Studies on the Holy Spirit by EW Bullinger. The 'bold'/'underline' in the quotes is mine.

The first book is:

INTERLINEAR GREEK ENGLISH NEW TESTAMENT
ZONDERVAN PUBLISHED 1972. Based on STEVENS GREEK TEXT

Introduction page iii

1. Capitals.- The only remark needed here is in reference to the names of God, of Christ, and of the Holy Spirit. The greatest difficulty is touching the word 'Spirit.' In some places it is very difficult to say whether the Holy Spirit as a person or the spirit of the Christian is referred to (see Rom.8:9) ; and if sometimes a small letter and sometimes a capital had been placed to the word (pneuma in the Greek) and if sometimes a small letter and sometimes a capital had been placed to the word (pneuma in the Greek). Persons would naturally have concluded that the question was thus indisputably settled. It was therefore judged best to put a small s in the Greek everywhere. In the English we have been obliged to put a capital S when the Holy Spirit was referred to and so have retained it wherever we thought this was the case; but in some places it is really doubtful, and becomes a question for the spiritual judgment of the reader. The Greek will not help in the difficulty, because in the earliest copies every letter was a capital. In the other names we have followed the usage of modern editors; putting in the Greek a capital to Jesus but a small letter for Christ, and a small letter for Lord and for God.

The second book was first published in 1905, but is still being printed. It's 1979 FORWARD was written by someone you may know/appreciate. I bought this book around 1985.

WORD STUDIES ON THE HOLY SPIRIT A book by E.W. BULLINGER

FORWARD: The emphasis in recent years on the doctrine of the Holy Spirit has helped to produce a great number of books on that subject. Some of these books are immature and will not last. Their theology (to borrow a phrase from P.T. Forsyth) is “like a bad photograph-over-exposed and under-developed.” But a few books have made a definite contribution to the subject and will surely last. Word Studies on the Holy Spirit is one of the older works that has had a steady ministry and is sure to last.
WARREN W. WIERSBE

[Warren was born 1929, a former pastor of Moody Church as well as an author of over 160 books] This bracket info on Warren is added by Hillsage.

INTRODUCTION:
Pg 2; The question we have to ask, and the in formation we seek, is this: To what does the word pneuma refer each time it is used in the New Testament? When does it refer to the Holy Spirit? And when is it used psychologically or in any other way? In other words, when ought pneuma to be rendered Spirit, and when spirit? When with a capital “S” and when with a small “s”?

The answer is, that we can get no help, either from the original Greek manuscripts, the Printed Greek Texts, the Authorized Version, or the Revised Version (Remember this was wrote in 1905 and KJV was the latest. Hillsage).

Hence the necessity of our present effort: so that our readers may be able to answer these questions for themselves.

1. We get no help from the ORIGINAL GREEK MANUSCRIPTS of the New Testament.

There are nearly four thousand of them; but they are all in one of two styles of writing.

The one class is written all in small letters with no capitals, or with only a very few; none as we use them, with certain words; but only at the beginning of books or sections, or of large paragraphs.

The former class consists of about 127 manuscripts, called “Uncials” because every letter is large, and the whole is written in capitals.

The other class consists of about 3,702 manuscripts, which are called “Cursives” because every word is written in running-hand.

It is clear, therefore, that we can get no help from the manuscripts as to when to use “S,” and when to use “s,”.


END QUOTE on these two books I share for your perusal as to the dilemma which scholars have and the arm chair bible theologian is not even aware of.

 

[BCsenior]

OK, let me just start with some of the difficulties that I have found ...

Okay, many thanks for your trouble.
We will use all of this in our considerations,
and promise to get back to you in this thread!

 

[BCsenior]

We will use all of this in our considerations,
and promise to get back to you in this thread!

Hillsage, after a short deliberation, we are agreed that
your ideas are totally groundless, except that it is
NOT clear in the Greek what should be "S" or "s".
However, the context almost always makes it clear.

Your problem here is similar to one of mine ...
For years, I've been hung up on the difference between
receiving the Holy Spirit INSIDE or UPON ... whereas
the major importance is being FILLED with the Spirit
(in connection with Him coming UPON).
I am referring to the special anointing given by Jesus:
the baptism with the Holy Spirit (with the confirmation
of speaking in tongues).

 

[Hillsage]

Hillsage, after a short deliberation, we are agreed that
your ideas are totally groundless, except that it is
NOT clear in the Greek what should be "S" or "s".
However, the context almost always makes it clear.

Remember that "SMILING" comment I made in the PM concerning you thinking this response might not be to my liking? Well 'that smile' upon reading this paragraph became a full blown 'laugh'. Not for long, but this refutation you make can be totally undone by me by saying 'your ideas are groundless' too. I say that because all you've presented is an unsubstantiated opinion....in my opinion of course. So I'll keep believing like I believe. I'm sure God will straighten a lot of this 'stuff' out on the day when "we shall know as we have been known."

Your problem here is similar to one of mine ...
For years, I've been hung up on the difference between
receiving the Holy Spirit INSIDE or UPON ... whereas
the major importance is being FILLED with the Spirit
(in connection with Him coming UPON).
I am referring to the special anointing given by Jesus:
the baptism with the Holy Spirit (with the confirmation
of speaking in tongues).

A 'problem' I too was hung up on for years. But you want to know why that was so for both of us? It's because 'carnal minded' non Holy Spirit baptized theologians who never spoke in tongues wrote most of the theology long ago, and it was bad then same as now. But when the outpouring of the Holy Spirit came, in these 'latter rain' years of the church age OUR theology changed to line up with truly interpreted and understood scripture. Scripture which supported our experience, which lined up with the experience of the 'early rain' church of the first 'century'. Most theology was well 'argued' clear into the 'dark ages'. Now only dark for the world, but for the corrupted apostate church. IMO, of course.

But all the 'Holy Spirit of God in US as individuals' is not difficult IMO to refute with an understanding of scripture as I see it now. But I've shared all that here on CF before to no avail mostly. Everybody has that 'Jewish disease' I mentioned earlier.

2CO 3:14 But their minds were hardened; for to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted,

Today, in the 'new covenant' we still have the same symptomatic spiritual disease of 'hardened theology' IMO. But we do have the ability to 'lift the veil' for a 'better look' IF we only will. But it can only happen if 'we lift it' concerning things we aren't 'bound' to believe....even though they're wrong.

Thanks BC. I suppose this thread can go to page two in the pecking order now.

 

[BCsenior]

... 'carnal minded' non Holy Spirit baptized theologians who never spoke in tongues wrote most of the theology long ago, and it was bad then same as now.

I've also been saying this for some time!

You could always take one of your NT verses
in question ... and show why our NTs should
be saying "spirit" instead of "Spirit".
Because the last 2 you did give us are horrible examples;
they obviously refer to the Holy Spirit.
Blessings!

 

[Hillsage]

I've also been saying this for some time!

You could always take one of your NT verses
in question ... and show why our NTs should
be saying "spirit" instead of "Spirit".
Because the last 2 you did give us are horrible examples;
they obviously refer to the Holy Spirit.
Blessings!

Actually that has been done many times here, but to no avail. But it has also been written up in book form as well as in a study bible. Both sources sharing the 52 times that "spirit" and "holy spirit" were wrongly capitalized leading believers in to thinking it was the Holy Spirit of God rather than the holy spirit of Christ which is in you making you part of the body of Christ. If you had the 'Holy Spirit of God in you', scripture would say you were part of the 'body of God'....not the "body of Christ".

The book is 'Word Studies on the Holy Spirit' by EW Bullinger.
And the study bible which I also have, is the Companion Study Bible.
Both in print for a 100 years, because truth lasts.

I highly recommend the book because it's an inexpensive paperback. But, you better have your 'big girl' pants on if you want to read/study it. I sure had to.

 

[BCsenior]

Actually that has been done many times here, but to no avail.

Okay, so are the 2 verses you gave us some of the
primary "proof" verses in your 100-year-old classics?
If not, why did you give them to us?
(I'm not being defensive or offensive,
just asking obvious questions.)

 

[Hillsage]

Okay, so are the 2 verses you gave us some of the
primary "proof" verses in your 100-year-old classics?
If not, why did you give them to us?
(I'm not being defensive or offensive,
just asking obvious questions.)

My not so obvious question FIRST is this BC; Do you have a 'Greek English Interlinear bible' of the New Testament in your library?

As to your question on the 2 Eph. verses; I gave them because they are such an obvious 'written in plain English' anomaly, that I believe it should evoke a 'wake up' call that something is weird here in the KJV translation. A 'call' that should be in the heart of anyone who is truly seeking the truth wherever the Holy Spirit may lead them. AND I used these verses to present you with something that you may realize for the very first time, that you have never even caught it, let alone questioned it. Which is exactly what I think I asked you about, a few posts back, but you never answered. So I ask again, did you ever notice it said 'holy Spirit' in those two verses in all the years you 'surely' read the KJV.

I also shared those two verses just to point out that, even if others can't accept the position I have, and have been trying to share, that they can't help but still question that something may be wrong somewhere with 'their' iron clad....opinion. For years 'I personally' just figured it was printed that way, in new printings, because of a printing error in the original, and therefore publishers left it (just being true to the original). You may say; that was dumb thinking.... and now I agree, it was. But that very 'anomaly' also just goes along with the FORWARDS and INTRODUCTIONS which I posted concerning the 'reference book', and 'Greek English Interlinear bible' that I quoted back in post #64.

I was also hoping to stir up an "iron sharpening iron" interest in others to at least ask questions. But most never do, they just blindly go about trying to refute my position by adamantly defending the indoctrinated position of where they are at. Ironically, I don't need to hear those 'veiled' positions because that's where I too CAME FROM. So I know their position already, and usually better than those who now want to use them against me. It is truly frustrating.

As to my references??? It is a 'split decision'!!!! Why? Because in the Greek verse 1:13 is talking about the holy spirit (of Christ) which you are sealed WITH. And verse 4:30 is talking about the Holy Spirit of God which you were sealed BY. Nuance is not enlightening, until you see it.

 

[BCsenior]

My not so obvious question FIRST is this BC; Do you have a 'Greek English Interlinear bible' of the New Testament in your library?

Yes, we have several of them.
Yes, the holy Spirit is an obvious flag.

Eph 1:13 Green's Interlinear ...
"you were sealed with the Spirit (4151) Holy (40)
of promise"

Eph 4:30 Green's Interlinear ...
"the Spirit (4151) Holy (40) of God,
by whom you were sealed"

 

[Hillsage]

Yes, we have several of them.
Yes, the holy Spirit is an obvious flag.

Eph 1:13 Green's Interlinear ...
"you were sealed with the Spirit (4151) Holy (40)
of promise"

Eph 4:30 Green's Interlinear ...
"the Spirit (4151) Holy (40) of God,
by whom you were sealed"

For the third time....did you ever notice "holy Spirit" in those verses before I pointed it out here on the Forum?

As for your Green's Interlinear Bible quote, I am going to say this about your quote; Your Green's Interlinear reads differently than my Green's Interlinear????

My Green's Interlinear Bible 'literally' says;
1:13 you were sealed with the Spirit of promise the Holy,
4:30 "And do not grieve the Spirit Holy of God, by whom you were sealed...."


Let me now quote TWO other Greek/English Interlinears which I have. And I'll also quote them 'literally' as the Greek is literally written.

From the Stephen's Greek Text.
But FIRST, as I 'hope' you know, the capitalizations below are not literally or grammatically in the Greek and therefore it is an interpretation and not a literal translation in these verses. And any words that are in brackets [...] are also 'added' by translators. Underlining is mine.

EPH 1:13 "in whom also ye, having heard the word of the truth, the glad tidings of your salvation- in whom also, having believed, ye were sealed WITH the Spirit of promise the Holy,"

4:30 "And grieve not the Spirit the Holy of God, by which ye were sealed for [the] day of redemption."

From the Wescott and Hort Greek Text. These scholars did not capitalize the literal Greek, but they did capitalize YOU when it was grammatically plural in the Greek, instead of singular. This is where KJV would say YE or YOU for the plural and Thee and Thou for the singular, in the Greek.

1:13 "in whom also YOU having heard the word of the truth the good news of the salvation of YOU, in whom also having believed YOU were sealed to the spirit of the promise to the holy,"

4:30 "And not be YOU saddening the spirit the holy of the God, in which YOU were sealed into day of releasing by ransom.

 

[BCsenior]

For the third time....did you ever notice "holy Spirit" in those verses before I pointed it out here on the Forum?
As for your Green's Interlinear Bible quote, I am going to say this about your quote; Your Green's Interlinear reads differently than my Green's Interlinear????
My Green's Interlinear Bible 'literally' says;
1:13 you were sealed with the Spirit of promise the Holy,
4:30 "And do not grieve the Spirit Holy of God, by whom you were sealed....
Let me now quote TWO other Greek/English Interlinears which I have. And I'll also quote them 'literally' as the Greek is literally written.
From the Stephen's Greek Text.
But FIRST, as I 'hope' you know, the capitalizations below are not literally or grammatically in the Greek and therefore it is an interpretation and not a literal translation in these verses. And any words that are in brackets [...] are also 'added' by translators. Underlining is mine.
EPH 1:13 "in whom also ye, having heard the word of the truth, the glad tidings of your salvation- in whom also, having believed, ye were sealed WITH the Spirit of promise the Holy,"
4:30 "And grieve not the Spirit the Holy of God, by which ye were sealed for [the] day of redemption."
From the Wescott and Hort Greek Text. These scholars did not capitalize the literal Greek, but they did capitalize YOU when it was grammatically plural in the Greek, instead of singular. This is where KJV would say YE or YOU for the plural and Thee and Thou for the singular, in the Greek.
1:13 "in whom also YOU having heard the word of the truth the good news of the salvation of YOU, in whom also having believed YOU were sealed to the spirit of the promise to the holy,"
4:30 "And not be YOU saddening the spirit the holy of the God, in which YOU were sealed into day of releasing by ransom.

No, because I don't read the KJV.
All of your Green's refers to the Holy Spirit.
Don't trust Hort & Westcott,
who were total lackeys of the Vatican.
You know about Bible corruption by
the communist World Council of Churches.

 

[Hillsage]

No, because I don't read the KJV.
All of your Green's refers to the Holy Spirit.
Don't trust Hort & Westcott,
who were total lackeys of the Vatican.
You know about Bible corruption by
the communist World Council of Churches.

I guess we're done then. Thanks for giving me more of a chance than ever before.

 

[BCsenior]

I guess we're done then. Thanks for giving me more of a chance than ever before.

Yes, IMO, I did give you more than a fair chance.
But, no cigar.

 

[Hillsage]

Yes, IMO, I did give you more than a fair chance.
But, no cigar.

You missed what I meant in that post, just as you missed what I was sharing/teaching, in all these recent posts. The "chance" I was speaking of, was the less judgmental attitude you have always displayed in the past. You were always posting 'at' me as if I was some idiot compared to you. That was what I was complementing you on BC. You actually treated me as a 'brother' should be treated, even though we may not agree.

I did, and still do, appreciate how this last 'go around' went so well. And it makes 'no matter' to me, that you still think like you did. We both think the other is wrong, and so be it.