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Featured The Bible is not a Catechetical Book!

Discussion in 'Denomination Specific Theology' started by JesusLovesOurLady, Oct 2, 2017.

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  1. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Which means most of these threads begin with a flawed definition of Sola Scriptura and the rat race begins.

    Thanks for bringing the discussion back into orbit. You nailed the circular reasoning.
     
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  2. ~Cassia~

    ~Cassia~ Devoted to Truth Supporter

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    If we said this too shall pass it would be biblical ..
     
  3. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    It doesn't work and you are correct to "call that hand."

    As many here pointed out we need to know which version of Roman Rite Catholicism we are dealing with.

    -Vat 2?
    -SSPX?
    -traditionalist within Vat 2 but opposed to some or many tenents?
    -Liberal RCs who embrace the changes Pope Francis champions.

    There are three Roman Catholic communities here on CF last I checked.

    So you bring up a valid point which @PeaceByJesus and @Major1 brought up as well.

    For example, I debate often on other forums self proclaimed pro choice Catholics. Yet when confronted with their own catechism on the sin of abortion tell me they agree with said catechism but are still pro choice.

    Yet we are told Prots and Evangelicals have 33,000 differing views yet right here we have Presbyterians, Evangelicals, Baptists and Pentecostals all in unison with regards to the authority of Holy Scriptures.[/QUOTE]
     
  4. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

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    In order to escape the circularity of claiming that The Church®is infallible because the Scriptures teaches this, and Scriptures are infallible because The Church teaches this - and without which one cannot know they are of God - they are forced to appeal to the Scriptures for proof of the Church's infallible authority "merely as reliable historical sources, and abstract altogether from their inspiration." (Catholic Encyclopedia > Infallibility)

    Yet which tactic absurdly presumes souls can see the Catholic church as being of God by Scripture texts, but cannot see Scripture as being of God except by faith in the Church. (we on are part would be circular

    People cannot discover the contents of revelation by their unaided powers of reason and observation. They have to be told by people who have received in from on high. - Cardinal Avery Dulles, SJ, “Magisterium: Teacher and Guardian of the Faith”

    ...the believer cannot believe in the Bible nor find in it the object of his faith until he has previously made an act of faith in the intermediary authorities between the word of God and his reading. - Catholic Encyclopedia>Tradition and Living Magisterium

    Once a student is seduced by specious deceptive argumentation that the NT church is that of Rome, and makes a fallible judgment (a problem which the infallible magisterium is supposed to solve) to submit to this self-proclaimed infallible church, then he is no longer to seek to ascertain the veracity of official church teaching by examination of the evidences for it* - the very thing so many TradRcs do - for that which be contrary to the faith in the ensured veracity of Rome, which even in the case of non-infallible teaching by the Ordinary Magisterium, is held to preclude salvific error.

    In the end, assurance of Truth, of the veracity of Catholic teaching ultimately rest upon the novel and unScriptural premise of ensured perpetual magisterial infallibility of Rome, for she has presumed to infallibly declare she is and will be perpetually infallible whenever she speaks in accordance with her infallibly defined (scope and subject-based) formula, which renders her declaration that she is infallible, to be infallible, as well as all else she accordingly declares.

    We for our part would be circular if we argued that the Scriptures were of God since they say that are, but without deny that provide warrant for evidential warrant for faith in it. But then we can argue for SS being supported in Scripture, which it is in principal, based on its position even as incomplete, and its provision for more, and how God preserves His word by writing.

    Which does not preclude God "speaking" to us today in private revelation, (which most pastors hope He will do during the offering), nor the oral preaching of Scriptural Truths as binding, or by spiritual gifts which some Reformed allow for. But which is not held as speaking public revelation as wholly inspired of God which would add to Scripture or be equal with it.

    Michael J. Kruger concludes, The Catholic Church, then, finds itself in the awkward place of having chided the Reformers for having a self-authenticating authority (sola scriptura), when all the while it has engaged in that very same activity by setting itself up as a self-authenticating authority (sola ecclesia). On the Catholic model, the Scripture's own claims should not be received on their own authority, but apparently the church's own claims should be received on their own authority. - Canon Revisited: Establishing the Origins and Authority of the New Testament Books," 2012, by Michael J. Kruger From pp. 46-48

    *..having discovered the authority established by God, you must submit to it at once. There is no need of further search for the doctrines contained in the Christian Gospel, for the Church brings them all with her and will teach you them all....”


    All that we do [as must be patent enough now] is to submit our judgment and conform our beliefs to the authority Almighty God has set up on earth to teach us; this, and nothing else.” “Absolute, immediate, and unfaltering submission to the teaching of God's Church on matters of faith and morals-----this is what all must give..” —“Henry G. Graham, "What Faith Really Means", (Nihil Obstat:C. SCHUT, S. T.D., Censor Deputatus, Imprimatur: EDM. CANONICUS SURMONT, D.D.,Vicarius Generalis. WESTMONASTERII, Die 30 Septembris, 1914

    "The intolerance of the Church toward error, the natural position of one who is the custodian of truth, her only reasonable attitude makes her forbid her children to read or to listen to heretical controversy, or to endeavor to discover religious truths by examining both sides of the question. This places the Catholic in a position whereby he must stand aloof from all manner of doctrinal teaching other than that delivered by his Church through her accredited ministers." — (John H. Stapleton, Explanation of Catholic Morals, Chapters XIX, XXIII. the consistent believer (1904); Nihil Obstat. Remy Lafort, Censor Librorum. Imprimatur, John M. Farley, Archbishop of New York ;

    * Epistola Tua: To the shepherds alone was given all power to teach, to judge, to direct; on the faithful was imposed the duty of following their teaching, of submitting with docility to their judgment , and of allowing themselves to be governed, corrected, and guided by them in the way of salvation.

    Thus, it is an absolute necessity for the simple faithful to submit in mind and heart to their own pastors, and for the latter to submit with them to the Head and Supreme Pastor.... Similarly, it is to give proof of a submission which is far from sincere to set up some kind of opposition between one Pontiff and another. Those who, faced with two differing directives, reject the present one to hold to the past, are not giving proof of obedience to the authority which has the right and duty to guide them; and in some ways they resemble those who, on receiving a condemnation, would wish to appeal to a future council, or to a Pope who is better informed.

    On this point what must be remembered is that in the government of the Church, except for the essential duties imposed on all Pontiffs by their apostolic office, each of them can adopt the attitude which he judges best according to times and circumstances. Of this he alone is the judge. It is true that for this he has not only special lights, but still more the knowledge of the needs and conditions of the whole of Christendom, for which, it is fitting, his apostolic care must provide. - Epistola Tua (1885), Apostolic Letter of Pope Leo XIII; http://www.ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage_print.asp?number=403215&language=en

    "It follows that the Church is essentially an unequal society, that is, a society comprising two categories of per sons, the Pastors and the flock...the one duty of the multitude is to allow themselves to be led, and, like a docile flock, to follow the Pastors ." - VEHEMENTER NOS, an Encyclical of Pope Pius X promulgated on February 11, 1906.

    Nor can we pass over in silence the audacity of those who, not enduring sound doctrine, contend that "without sin and without any sacrifice of the Catholic profession assent and obedience may be refused to those judgments and decrees of the Apostolic See, whose object is declared to [only] concern the Church's general good and her rights and discipline, so only it does not touch the dogmata of faith and morals." But no one can be found not clearly and distinctly to see and understand how grievously this is opposed to the Catholic dogma of the full power given from God by Christ our Lord Himself to the Roman Pontiff of feeding, ruling and guiding the Universal Church. (Quanta Cura. Encyclical of Pope Pius IX promulgated on December 8, 1864; Quanta Cura - Papal Encyclicals)
    For it is quite foreign to everyone bearing the name of a Christian to trust his own mental powers with such pride as to agree only with those things which he can examine from their inner nature, and to imagine that the Church, sent by God to teach and guide all nations, is not conversant with present affairs and circumstances; or even that they must obey only in those matters which she has decreed by solemn definition as though her other decisions might be presumed to be false or putting forward insufficient motive for truth and honesty.

    Quite to the contrary, a characteristic of all true followers of Christ, lettered or unlettered, is to suffer themselves to be guided and led in all things that touch upon faith or morals by the Holy Church of God through its Supreme Pastor the Roman Pontiff, who is himself guided by Jesus Christ Our Lord. - CASTI CONNUBII, ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XI; Casti Connubii (December 31, 1930) | PIUS XI

    ...when we love the Pope, there are no discussions regarding what he orders or demands, or up to what point obedience must go, and in what things he is to be obeyed ; when we love the Pope, we do not say that he has not spoken clearly enough, almost as if he were forced to repeat to the ear of each one the will clearly expressed so many times not only in person, but with letters and other public documents ; we do not place his orders in doubt, adding the facile pretext of those unwilling to obey – that it is not the Pope who commands, but those who surround him; we do not limit the field in which he might and must exercise his authority ; we do not set above the authority of the Pope that of other persons, however learned, who dissent from the Pope, who, even though learned, are not holy, because whoever is holy cannot dissent from the Pope.
    The Bishops form the most sacred part of the Church, that which instructs and governs men by divine right; and so he who resists them and stubbornly refuses to obey their word places himself outside the Church [cf. Matt. 18:18]. But obedience must not limit itself to matters which touch the faith: its sphere is much more vast: it extends to all matters which the episcopal power embraces. - (Pope Saint Pius X, Allocution Vi ringrazio to priests on the 50th anniversary of the Apostolic Union, November 18, 1912,

     
  5. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Indeed. Even Moses was not infallible.
     
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  6. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Thanks. I think you and Kruger get to the meat of the issue.
     
  7. ~Cassia~

    ~Cassia~ Devoted to Truth Supporter

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    It looks like the pope has much the same rights as Trump from the artical shown.
     
  8. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    You will never see this quoted over at Catholic Answers.
     
  9. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

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    "Meat?" You mean we dig down in the freezer? Doing the Father's will was Jesus "meat." Or is it "really" meat but looks, tastes, etc., and scientifically tests as mere bread, but which has ceased to exist, the bread becoming that in substance. That is, until the non-existent bread or wine start to show visible decay, at which time neither the meat nor the bread exists.

    You find that doubtful? Well, its like this:

    "...the mere fact that the Church teaches the doctrine of the Assumption as definitely true is a guarantee that it is true," - Karl Keating, founder of Catholic Answers; Catholicism and Fundamentalism San Francisco: Ignatius, 1988, p. 275),
     
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  10. JesusLovesOurLady

    JesusLovesOurLady Slave of the Handmaid of the Lord

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    I did try and show, it to you. The Bible is an object that was written by humans, (though inspired by God) copied by humans, translated by humans, canonized by humans, read by humans ect. ect. To rely on only one infallible authority is bad enough, but when the infallible authority is an object that is subject humans in every way, shape, or form (again, accept for the fact that is was God-breathed, I'm not denying that) that is an even bigger problem.

    "Infallible Church" is a broad term, but I assume we both know what we mean by this, and how infallible authority works in the Catholic Church so yes, I do affirm this.
     
  11. JesusLovesOurLady

    JesusLovesOurLady Slave of the Handmaid of the Lord

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    We're not debating this, but check out the list of the quotes on the following page, and pay close attention to the dates: Church Fathers on Mary as Ark of the New Covenant ::
     
  12. JesusLovesOurLady

    JesusLovesOurLady Slave of the Handmaid of the Lord

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    Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture.
     
  13. JesusLovesOurLady

    JesusLovesOurLady Slave of the Handmaid of the Lord

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    Sacred Scripture does not contradict, but rather confirms Sacred Tradition. Sacred Scripture does however contradict Sola Scriptura, which is what we're debating here. You need to defend Sola Scriptura, not attack Sacred Tradition, or the Magisterium.
     
  14. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    When tested by Scripture, most all the claims fail. (everywhere on earth)
     
  15. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    How are the traditions tested?
     
  16. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    The circular assertions continue.

    An assertion you failed to substantiate. Eisegesis is not confirmation.


    Restating an assertion after it has been refuted multiple times is not debating.

    Sola Scriptura was defended multiple times. Perhaps you need time to view the over 20 posts which dismantled your OP.

    And of course the magisterium is in free play. Your assertions in the OP emanate from it.
     
  17. JesusLovesOurLady

    JesusLovesOurLady Slave of the Handmaid of the Lord

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    This is the classic error of assuming the term "Word of God" means Sacred Scripture, when in reality the term Word of God can mean a whole host of other things, the most obvious being, God the Son, as it does in The Last Gospel. (John 1:1-14) This is guilty of the fallacy of Begging the Question (as are many of these assertions) as these passages don't at all affirm that the "Word of God," whatever that may be is formally sufficient, they merely show a certain aspect of the Word of God, namely, that is stands firm in the heavens, and that it is above all things, and is only equal with the Name of God.

    Does the Holy Gospel record ALL of the words spoken by Jesus? Either way, this passage only affirms the Infallibility of Sacred Scripture, not that it is formally sufficient, or the only infallible authority.

    All these merely affirm the infallibility of Sacred Scripture, they don't affirm that Scripture alone is the only Infallible Authority. On top of that, the vast majority of these refer only to the Old Testament.

    Strawmans

    These three quotes do not even assert that what is being written here, is infallible, let alone that what is written here is the only infallible authority (imagine how ridiculous that would be!)

    Before starting this debate, I discussed it with my friends on the FishEaters Forum, (in which they warned me, that very thing that would happen on this debate, would happen, namely, that the vast majority of Protestants would dodge my arguments, and attack Catholic Dogma, but I'm not going to harp on that.) during our discussion, I talked about some of the arguments, I was considering using during this debate, and my friend at FishEaters told me I was overthinking things. Now imagine if, one of my FishEater friends in effort to prevent me from overthinking things told me, "don't think beyond what I have typed!" would that mean I should base my arguments only on what was type in his post? That should throw-out everything I've researched leading up this debate?

    Jesus was only condemning traditions of men, not oral traditions, not traditions in general.

    No, not all oral traditions were wrong about Jesus, the Bible proves it:

    And coming he dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was said by prophets: That he shall be called a Nazarene.
    - St. Matthew 2:23 DR
    No where in the Old Testament is this prophet about the Messiah written, it's an oral tradition.

    Oh and by the way, while we're on the subject of Tradition in the Bible, you know the "proof-text" for Sola Scriptura, 2 Timothy 3:16? Well look at what it says earlier in the same chapter:

    Now as Jannes and Mambres resisted Moses, so these also resist the truth, men corrupted in mind, reprobate concerning the faith.
    - 2 Timothy 3:8 DR
    Now where in the Old Testament, do we here of Jannes and Mambres resisting Moses? We don't, this also is a tradition, and St. Paul has now qualms about putting it in his Epistle.
     
  18. JesusLovesOurLady

    JesusLovesOurLady Slave of the Handmaid of the Lord

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    Wow, you folk really are desperate! Yep, this debate definitely is winding down. I guess have to worry about this to much as I work on finishing my college papers. I'll be back tomorrow evening to continue this debate.

    See you all later.
     
  19. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

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    Why is it that you just cannot get it, and instead repeated the same old mantra that has been so plainly refuted time and again? Again, if an infallible magisterium is essential for common people to assuredly ascertain what is of God, then the NT church could not have begun! For the NT church began with common souls having ascertained what/who is of God, both writings (as seen by the abundant invocations of them by Christ and His disciples to the Jews), and men, holding past prophets to be of God and John the Baptist "to be a prophet indeed," as well as the Lord and His disciples being of God, yet whom the magisterial stewards of Scripture rejected.

    As much as you insist that it is untenable that common souls can correctly ascertain what/who is of God, and understand preaching and writings of them without an infallible interpreter, the very NT church (which Catholics imagine themselves to be) refutes you!

    In addition, a second infallible interpreter simply moves the problem to a second level, for it is very manifest that both which magisterial level each RC teachings falls under, as well as their meaning, are to varying degrees subject to interpretation by Catholics, including popes and each magisterial generation.

    Nor can you ever show the ensured perpetual magisterial infallibility as per Rome in Scripture.


    I have explained RC theology on magisterial infallibility, and once again you are contrary to how the NT church began, and essentially have invalidated it.

    In addition, you have also ignored the fact that very very few Bible verses, if any, have been infallibly interpreted by Rome, and RCs have a great deal of interpretive liberty of the Bible within the parameters of Rome.
     
  20. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

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    All the graphics in the world will not change what survey after survey shows (Catholics being liberal), including that commissioned by your church, and is evidenced wherever Catholicism abounds and (votes.)

    Nor can you deny that your church counts and treats proabortion, prosodomite Ted Kennedy-type RCS as members in life and in death, as Ted-hands are red, was.

    Nor can you deny the other divisions within Catholicism, Catholics, with each side calling each other cafeteria Catholics based upon their judgment of what church teaching means. Thus there are different forum categories here, including one for "TradCats" I assume, with different favorite Bibles (Douay-Rheims for most TradCats).
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2017
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