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Featured The Bible is not a Catechetical Book!

Discussion in 'Denomination Specific Theology' started by JesusLovesOurLady, Oct 2, 2017.

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  1. JesusLovesOurLady

    JesusLovesOurLady Slave of the Handmaid of the Lord

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    As also in all his [Paul's] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
    - 2 Peter 3:16

    The doctrines are present in Sacred Scripture, but one needs the correct exegesis to understand them for what they are.
     
  2. JesusLovesOurLady

    JesusLovesOurLady Slave of the Handmaid of the Lord

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    I wouldn't recommend heckling on this thread, unless you want your conscience pricked hard! This debate is already taken a very hard downward spiral for the proponents of Sola Scriptura.
     
  3. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Who says it's your magisterium? I've pointed out your assertions from Scriptures use eisegesis.

    Note exegesis is the objective approach.
     
  4. Episaw

    Episaw Always learning

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    You could have fooled me and probably everyone else on this Board.
     
  5. JesusLovesOurLady

    JesusLovesOurLady Slave of the Handmaid of the Lord

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    From here, Protestantism looks absolutely abysmal! All a Protestantism has to do is defend Sola Scriptura yet, the vast majority of Protestants are instead attacking Catholic Dogma, doctrines, and practices! Imagine a CF thread where a Catholic Dogma is being challenged and all the Catholics are ignoring the issue and instead attacking Sola Fidei, and you'll get an idea of just how pathetic you look!

    Oh good! Than you'll do just fine at my upcoming Mother of God debate on October 16th, I highly Highly recommend you to attend!

    I win!

    You wish! But I tell you what, if this debate continues to go the way it's going, with all of you failing to defend Sola Scriptura, I'll give you one Bible verse that proves one of the most important aspects of the Catholic Faith and see how you fair in attacking it!

    Really? I don't think all Protestants believe in the Rapture, and one Protestant can easily debunk it using logical deduction.

    Finally! Another Protestant trying to actually defend Sola Scriptura! Even though earlier you said Sola Scriptura could not be defended.

    No, it just says that Sacred Scripture is God-breathed and thus infallible, it does not say that because Sacred Scripture is infallible, Sacred Tradition isn't. Here's what FishEaters says about that "proof-text":

    “Some Protestants like to use 2 Timothy 3:16-17 as a "proof-text" that Sola Scriptura is a Biblical principle:

    All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

    No Catholic, of course, disagrees with these verses, or with any verses of Sacred Scripture. Of course Scripture is profitable! We Catholics see it as one of the three pillars of the very Church (the other two being Sacred Tradition and the Magisterim -- the teaching authority of the Church). But Protestants are obviously reading into this text what they want to see. Imagine you are a soldier. Now read this:

    "All Army teaching guides are given by inspiration of the experts, and are profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in the life of a soldier: That the soldier may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all a soldier needs to do.”

    Would you take it to mean that the soldier, then, no longer needs a Drill Sergeant for training him, weaponry, ammunition, armor, communications equipment, etc.? Saying that X is profitable or necessary and that X helps one become thoroughly furnished for something doesn't say at all that Y is also not profitable or necessary and that Y helps one become thoroughly furnished for something. And how can Protestants square their reading of 2 Timothy 3:16-17 with Ephesians 4:11-12, which reads:

    And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

    According to these verses, what is needed for the perfecting of the saints are the apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers! How could this possibly be if all we need is the "Bible alone”?”

    -FishEaters


    I didn't even bring up the fact, that at the time St. Paul wrote 2 Timothy 3:16-17, that the only Scripture present at the time, was the Old Testament.

    2 Peter 3:15-16 was written after St. Paul. If anything, the passage affirms the Authority of the Magisterium to recognize and affirm New Testament Scripture. I don't see any implications in 1 Timothy 5:18 or St. Luke 10:17 that said works, or any other New Testament works, were recognized as Scriptures. I find it hilarious that you would try and quote a Gospel to justify Sola Scriptura since Jesus, in no way, shape or form, teaches Sola Scriptura! He quotes Old Testament Scripture, yes, but He doesn't order His Apostles and Disciples to write down a New Testament, let alone, tell His disciples to live by Scripture alone. The term New Testament appears only twice in all of the Four Gospels, but it is not referring to Scriptures but to something much, much, MUCH, greater! I think Dr. David Anders perfectly sums up, the complete absence of Jesus' teaching Sola Scriptura in the Gospels:

    "How did Jesus intend for the faith to be handed on? What advice did He give? What structure or individuals did He appoint for the handing on of the faith? Did He recommend that believers run to the (non-existent) NT scriptures for any reason at all? Catholicism is often falsely accused of having man-made doctrines, when the gigantic elephant in the Protestant living room is the 100% man-made doctrine of bible alone. Thus, it is perhaps better to ask SS types for references that indicate that Jesus taught bible alone, that He wrote anything which was passed on, or that He commanded the writing of anything, or evidence that He intended believers to run to the scriptures when the inevitable disputes arose. There is scriptural evidence for exactly none of this. Bible as sole rule is the allegation, placing the burden of proof upon those who hold to it."
     
  6. JesusLovesOurLady

    JesusLovesOurLady Slave of the Handmaid of the Lord

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    Well that's why we're having this debate here, how do you know my interpretation is eisegesis and not exegesis? Especially since my interpretation comes from the Church Fathers, who are the first people in recorded history to comment on the New Testament?
     
  7. JesusLovesOurLady

    JesusLovesOurLady Slave of the Handmaid of the Lord

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    Because Scripture, by the very fact that it's Scripture, and not a living entity, is something that is meant to be used by living entities, specifically, human beings. Because human beings are fallen, and therefore fallible, Sacred Scripture will have to be processed through fallible beings, and thus, a danger for misinterpretation arises.

    In order for this danger to be avoided, other infallible authorities are needed, living infallible authorities, for God is a God of the Living, not the dead. A living Magisterium, and a Tradition in the living minds of believers is what God provided us, in order to help ensure, that His Authority, and His Gospel, are well heard.
     
  8. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

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    Your "answer" seems like you are affirming that you somehow "see an infallible church being essential for common people assuredly ascertaining what/who is of God," though rather than showing this you are merely asserting it is essential.

    Would you plainly state that you are affirming an infallible church is essential for common people assuredly ascertaining what/who is of God, and if being the historical instruments and stewards of Divine revelation (oral and written) means that such is that assuredly infallible magisterium. Thus any who knowingly dissent from the latter must be in rebellion to God?

    Why is this so difficult to plainly state? No wonder you so much need an interpreter.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2017
  9. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    People have a choice- Jesus can tell us like He told the disciples;
    The Father Himself from heaven can grant understand of His Own Word,

    or someone who is , well, not trusting Jesus nor God to tell,
    can listen to someone else who guarantees they won't lie, even if they lie......

    difficult choice, huh? (no)
     
  10. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Which traditions come from the church fathers? The Mary of Roman Catholicism is absent in the early church. As well as Purgatory and Pontifex Maximus. It is the later traditions looking back for a tangential Biblical verse or two which you are calling Biblical. Which I already pointed out is eisegesis reading into the text.
     
  11. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    And what does this infallible magisterium have in ways to test truth claims?
     
  12. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    WHen Scripture says TRUTH (as always)
    and
    anyone including so-called ecf say something contrary to Scripture,

    which one is right and true and to be accepted ?

    As Jesus told all the disciples, test everything by Scripture - if the teachers etc teach anything contrary to Scripture, do not accept it.

    It is actually plain and simple for all to see. (not difficult, except when someone is more concerned with peer pressure and family and so on)
     
  13. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    What did the Holy Spirit leave us which is wholly Inspired to test truth claims? See quote below picture in signature.
     
  14. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    You really need to stop talking sense in this thread. :)
     
  15. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Well,
    actually,
    I just realized a moment ago,
    that they don't just need words to know the truth, as the words posted throughout this forum have helped some but not many -
    since many don't have a good example to SEE with their eyes how to live, to SEE the completely changed life GOD REQUIRES, as GOD accomplishes in all those born again today on earth by His Will from heaven, and set apart by HIM, in Christ Jesus full of JOY, PEACE, and RIGHTEOUSNESS today , today in ekklesia(set apart ones) .....

    It was SEEING those ekklesia in person, in real life, living as Jesus says to live, with Jesus present in their midst, in their lives as written in ACTS and throughtout the NT - lives of righteousness and service for one another, holy lives, rejecting sin, rejecting hypocrisy, rejecting idolatry... as God accomplishes all in Christ Jesus for all His children/ disciples...

    So, we pray that all may seek and see the ekklesia, living totally regenerated lives without willful sin, without willful idolatry, laying down our lives for one another daily, unselfish, not greedy, not oppressing and never hurting others....
    as Scripture says clearly.

    (see in Ephesians, Philippians, Hebrews, HOW the people of God, the believers LIVE ON EARTH as an example for us today ,
    since many people cannot find an assembly living holy lives on earth today).... (except they look diligently)
     
  16. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    It is plain and simple.

    However, the very ECFs usually pointed to don't even support the later Roman doctrinal developments and syncretism.

    I do agree appealing to ECFs to "prove" a practice or doctrine is akin to appealing to all the 7 churches of Revelation 2-3 and stating "see the early church did that." Which we know the majority of said churches were rebuked and not praised.

    The epitaph for this thread is Matthew 4:4. Meaning a lot of words here but Jesus clearly stated we should only listen to God's Words. And where do we find His Words? I know you know the answer as you have said this is very simple and I agree with you.
     
  17. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Quoted for truth.
     
  18. kepha31

    kepha31 Regular Member

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    This is a rabbit trail because it doesn't define Tradition. You can't find 1 Corinthians 3, nor can you find any one of 70+ verses where Peter is spokesman and leader of all the Apostles.

    You perpetuate standard Protestant myths about devotion to Mary, she can do NOTHING without God. I'll repeat that to make sure you get it: Mary can do NOTHING without God.

    Psalm 138:2 doesn't say "His written word alone". You can search the whole Bible and NOWHERE is "word of God" used to mean the written word alone. That is a false man made Protestant tradition.

    I apologize. As you know, infallibility is teaching without error, and is constantly misrepresented with straw man fallacies.

    Sacred Tradition may also be loosely defined as the authoritative and authentic Christian history of theological doctrines and devotional practices. In addition, click on the "76" in my signature. From your posts I am not seeing any understanding of Sacred Tradition. Purgatory and the papacy does not define it.


     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2017
  19. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    Psalms 119:89...........
    "Your word, O Lord, is eternal; it stands firm in the heavens.”

    Psalms 138:2................
    “You have exalted above all things your name and your word.”

    Matt. 24:35..................
    “Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.”

    John 10:35...................
    “The Scripture cannot be broken.”

    John 17:17..................
    “Your word is truth.”

    2 Tim. 3:16................
    “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training righteousness.”

    As we try to point out Sola Scriptura it is clear that we are in a difficult position with Catholics, Orthodox and Watchtower believers. That is because when we point out the verses that prove sola Scriptura is taught in scripture, they don't believe they can understand the Bible without their church interpreting it for them... and they say sola Scriptura is not taught in the Bible. What an amazing system of circular deception the Catholic, Orthodox and Brooklyn New York, churches have invented.

    Sola Scriptura means that you use the Bible alone for doctrine. This means Catholics and Orthodox need not appeal to their contradictory oral church traditions and Jehovah's Witnesses need not rely upon the Watchtower magazine to interpret the Bible for them.

    1 Corinthians 4:6...............
    "Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up on behalf of one against the other."

    Now the Biblical fact is that never does Jesus refer to oral traditions in a positive way.
    Every time he defends truth he refers to the scriptures.

    The only times Jesus referred to Oral traditions, was condemning them:.....
    'But in vain do they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.'

    "Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men."

    He was also saying to them, "You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition.

    "For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother'; and, 'He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death'; but you say, 'If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),' you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that." (Mark 7:7-13)

    Lets go deeper with what Jesus Himself taught us, shall we?

    Luke 10:26...............
    "What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?"

    Mark 12:24...............
    Jesus said to them, "Is this not the reason you are mistaken, that you do not understand the Scriptures or the power of God?

    Matthew 22:29..........
    But Jesus answered and said to them, "You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures nor the power of God.

    Matthew 20:17........
    "The Son of Man is to go, just as it is written of Him".

    There were any oral traditions as to who the messiah was. All were wrong! Some thought he was merely a king, some merely a prophet, some merely a priest!

    Luke 20:17...............
    "What then is this that is written: 'The stone which the builders rejected, This became the chief corner stone'?

    John 5:39.............
    "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me".

    Matthew 26:54..............
    "How then will the Scriptures be fulfilled, which say that it must happen this way?"

    2 Tim. 3:15..............
    "from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus."

    Ephesians 3:2-5..............
    "if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God's grace which was given to me for you; that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief. By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit; Ephesians 3:2-5

    2 Corinthians 1:13...........
    "For we write nothing else to you than what you read and understand, and I hope you will understand until the end".
     
  20. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    Agreed!

    My experience with this subject is that no matter how much bible Scripture is posted, no matter how much logic is considered, nothing will make any difference.
     
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