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Featured The Bible is not a Catechetical Book!

Discussion in 'Denomination Specific Theology' started by JesusLovesOurLady, Oct 2, 2017.

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  1. ~Cassia~

    ~Cassia~ Well-Known Member Supporter

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    In what way does that relate to Rev 11:19 Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenanth]" was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.
     
  2. kepha31

    kepha31 Regular Member

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    That has nothing to do with infallibility.
    These sins may exist, but that does not mean they are endorsed.
    These divisions may may exist, but that does not mean there are separate doctrines. There is only one set of unchanging doctrines.
     
  3. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

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    If you read what I was responding to, which it seems you do not, then you might just realize it does, for the OP argues that an infallible magisterium is essential for unity. Yes Catholics interpret their church, from TradCats to Ted Kennedy-Cats, all of whom Rome counts and treats as members in life and in death, thus showing what she really believes, interpreting herself. For the evidence of what one really believes is what one does.

    Not "may," but do, and it means that Rome implicitly conveys that these sins are to be tolerated without being excommunicated. Your current pope, elected by your pastors, even seems to be censoring the few conservative bishops who attempt to correct some his interpretation of what Catholic teaching means.
    Nonsense. Sects are formed based upon beliefs, even if in matters of interpretation, and what one believes is doctrine.

    82% of Mainline Churches, 77% of Catholics and 53% of Evangelical Churches affirmed, "There is MORE than one true way to interpret the teachings of my religion ." U.S. Religious landscape survey; Copyright © 2008 The Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life. Religious Landscape Study

    73% (highest) of Pentecostal/Foursquare believers strongly affirm that Christ was sinless on earth, with Catholics , Lutherans and Methodists being tied at 33% , and the lowest being among Episcopalians with just 28% http://www.barna.org/barna-update/article/5-barna-update/53

    66% of Catholics supported women's ordination to the priesthood, and 73% approved of the way John Paul II leads the church. Surveying the Religious Landscape: Trends in U.S. Beliefs by George Gallup, Jr. and D. Michael Lindsay (Morehouse Publishing, 1999). Copyright © 2004 -- The Gallup Organization www.gallup.com

    80% of Catholics believe it is possible to disagree with the pope on official positions on morality and still be a good Catholic. Time/CNN nationwide poll of 1,000 adults, conducted by Yankelovich Partners, Sept. 27-28, 1995; subsample of 500 Catholics, MOE ± 4.5%

    77% of Catholics polled "believe a person can be a good Catholic without going to Mass every Sunday, 65 percent believe good Catholics can divorce and remarry, and 53 percent believe Catholics can have abortions and remain in good standing. 1999 poll by the National Catholic Reporter. http://www.catholictradition.org/v2-bombs14b.htm

    40% Roman Catholics vs. 41% Non-R.C. see abortion as "morally acceptable"; Sex between unmarried couples: 67% vs. 57%; Baby out of wedlock: 61% vs. 52%; Homosexual relations: 54% vs. 45%; Gambling: 72% vs. 59% Catholics Similar to Mainstream on Abortion, Stem Cells

    Committed Roman Catholics (church attendance weekly or almost) versus Non-R.C. faithful church goers (see the below as as morally acceptable): Abortion: 24% of R.C. vs. 19% Non-R.C.; Sex between unmarried couples: 53% vs. 30%; Baby out of wedlock: 48% vs. 29%; Homosexual relations: 44% vs. 21%; Gambling: 67% vs. 40%; Divorce: 63 vs. 46% ^

    Comparing 16 moral behaviors, Catholics were less likely to say mean things about people behind their back, and tending to engage in recycling more. However, they were also twice as likely to view pornographic content on the Internet, and were more prone to use profanity, to gamble, and to buy lottery tickets. ^

    73 percent of Catholics rejected Catholic teaching artificial methods of birth control. Catholic World Report; 1997 survey of 1,000 Catholic Americans by Roper Center for Public Opinion Research at the University of Connecticut

    Only 20 percent strongly agreed with the Church teaching that only men may be ordained. ^

    Just 15% of U.S. Catholics say that using contraceptives is morally wrong. 41% say that using contraceptives is morally acceptable, while 36% say it is not a moral issue. 37% of Catholics who attend Mass at least once a week say using contraceptives is morally wrong while 33% say it is morally acceptable and 30% say it is not a moral issue. http://www.pewresearch.org/key-data-points/u-s-catholics-key-data-from-pew-research/#abortion

    31% of faithful Catholics (those who attend church weekly, 2004) say abortion should be legal either in "many" or in "all" cases.. 2004, The Gallup Organization Gallup Survey for Catholics Speak Out: 802 Catholics, May 1992, MOE ± 4%;

    26 percent of Catholics (2007) polled strongly agree with the Church's unequivocal position on abortion Catholic World Report; survey of 1,000 Catholic Americans by Roper Center for Public Opinion Research at the University of Connecticut; http://www.adoremus.org/397-Roper.html

    A 2002 nationwide poll of 1,854 priests in the United States and Puerto Rico reported that 30% of Roman Catholic priests described themselves as Liberal, 28% as Conservative, and 37% as Moderate in their Religious ideology. 53 percent responded that they thought it always was a sin for unmarried people to have sexual relations; 32 percent that is often was, and 9 percent seldom/never. However, nearly four in 10 younger priests in 2002 described themselves as conservative, and were more likely to regard as "always a sin" such acts as premarital sex, abortion, artificial birth control, homosexual relations, etc., and three-fourths said they were more religiously orthodox than their older counterparts. Los Angeles Times (extensive) nationwide survey (2002). http://www.bishop-accountability.org/resources/resource-files/reports/LAT-Priest-Survey.pdf FindArticles.com | CBSi

    The survey also found that 80% of Roman Catholic priests referred to themselves as “mostly” heterosexual in orientation, with 67% being exclusively heterosexual, 8% leaning toward heterosexual, 5% completely in the middle, and 6% leaning toward homosexual and 9% saying they are homosexual, for a combined figure of 15% on the homosexual class. Among younger priests (those ordained for 20 years or less) the figure was 23%. ^

    After examining the official web sites of 244 Catholic universities and colleges in America, the TFP Student Action found that 107 – or 43% have pro-homosexual clubs. TFP Student Action Dec. 6. 2011; studentaction.org/get-involved/online-petitions/pro-homosexual-clubs-at-107-catholic-colleges/print.html

    79 percent of American Jews , 58 percent of Catholics and 56 percent of mainline Protestants favor acceptance of homosexuality , versus 39 percent of members of historically black churches, 27 percent of Muslims and 26 percent of the evangelical Protestants. U.S. U.S. Religious landscape survey; Copyright © 2008 The Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life. Religious Landscape Study

    56% of Catholics overall (and 46% of the general public) believe that sexual relations between two adults of the same gender is not a sin, while 39%. of Catholics say homosexual behavior is morally wrong, (versus 76% of white evangelicals and 66% of black Protestants, and 40% of Mainline Protestants). 41% of Catholics do not consider homosexual behavior to be a moral issue. (Pew Research Center, Religion & Politics Survey, 2009; PRRI/RNS Religion News Survey, October 2010; http://publicreligion.org/site/wp-c...6/Catholics-and-LGBT-Issues-Survey-Report.pdf)

    Catholics testify [2010] to showing more support (in numbers) for legal recognitions of same-sex relationships than members of any other Christian tradition, and Americans overall. Almost three-quarters of Catholics favor either allowing gay and lesbian people to marry or allowing them to form civil unions (43% and 31% respectively). Only 22% of Catholics said there should be no legal recognition of a gay couple’s relationship. (PRRI, Pre--election American Values Survey, 9/2010; http://publicreligion.org/site/wp-c...6/Catholics-and-LGBT-Issues-Survey-Report.pdf.)

    More
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2017
  4. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    I do not care one little bit if you choose to argue with me. It is however very sad to see you or for that matter so entrenched in their "religion" that they argue with God and His Words as found in the Bible.

    YOU as a present day Catholic want people to believe that the YOU and the Catholic Church has faith in the Bible, and that it is the church of the Bible, and encourages its members to read and study the Bible. However, when Catholics try to disprove the Bible as the only authority in religion, their true attitude toward the Bible is revealed just as you have just done.

    YOU and The Catholic Church oppose the Bible as the sole guide and standard in religion and whenever it tries to disprove it as such, its true attitude toward it is manifested.

    You asked.............
    "Does the Holy Gospel record ALL of the words spoken by Jesus?"

    NO, of course not. Any one who has read the Bible knows that.

    The Catholic church itself has said..............
    "Is it not strange that if Christianity were to be learned from the Bible only, that Christ himself never wrote a line or commanded his apostles to write; for their divine commission was not to write but to preach the gospel." (Question Box, p. 70).

    "Christ gave his disciples no command to write, but only to teach." (Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol. 5, p. 767).

    The only reason why the Catholic Church would say that was to establish that the Bible alone is not the standard of authority.

    Christ didn't actually take a pen in His hand and write the New Testament; nevertheless, it is His production. The Old Testament declares that God built the temple in 1 Kings 8:16,20, but do YOU think that God actually came down and build it Himself???????

    He built it through the agency of men and believers in God. Likewise, the written New Testament is the will of Christ. He wrote it through those commissioned by Him. It contains His laws as seen in 1 Cor. 14:37 and produces the faith which brings life in His name as recorded by John 20:30-31.

    Christ commanded the apostle John in Revelation 1:19.......
    "Write therefore the things that thou hast seen, and the things that are, and the things that are to come hereafter."

    Thus, the Catholic Church and YOU are incorrect when they say Christ never commissioned His apostles to write. In many books of the prophets of the Old Testament there are no commands to write, but it was God's will that they do so in order to preserve their words for all generations.

    The Catholic officials and YOU have assumed that the command to the apostles to teach excluded written instruction. However, writing the inspired Scriptures was part of the work of the apostles and prophets in delivering God's message to man.

    Jesus said in Matthew 24:35..........
    "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away."

    In John 12:48 Jesus taught that His word would be the standard of judgment in the last day. He said.........
    "He that despiseth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him, the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day."
    (Catholic Rheims Translation).

    Companion verses show that men will be judged by "the gospel" in Rom. 2:16, and "the law of liberty" in James 2:12, and "the books" in Rev. 20:12. All of these are similar and reveal that men will be judged by the New Testament of Christ in the last day.
     
  5. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    Since you are attending college, I would encourage you take some classes in Bible Christianity 101.
     
  6. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

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    Only expressly 12 times,
    Revelation 1:11
    Revelation 1:19
    Revelation 2:1
    Revelation 2:8
    Revelation 2:12
    Revelation 2:18
    Revelation 3:1
    Revelation 3:7
    Revelation 3:14
    Revelation 14:13
    Revelation 19:9
    Revelation 21:5

    And Christ abundantly affirmed the writing of God's word, that being the most authoritative means of preservation, and since it is the Spirit of Christ who inspired the writers of the NT, then to claim "Christ gave his disciples no command to write" means that the Holy Spirit did this on His own, which is heretical:

    Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. (John 16:13-14)
     
  7. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    [/QUOTE]

    I truly wonder if the majority of people pray and ponder their own thinking??????

    We as a country and Christians in particular rant and rave about what you just said......
    "abortion---Prochoice".

    The Catholic Church says that they are against abortion. The Baptist's declare their objection as do the Pentecostals and Methodists and all the others.

    But year after year we continue to reelect and elect those people who are openly Pro-choice. WHY?????

    IF the people who claim to be Christians actually were Christians and they obeyed the Word of God .......Abortion would never be an issue at all.
     
  8. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    You do realize I hope that the comment I posted was not from me, but was from the Catholics own teaching.

    And I agree 100% with you in that ..................
    "then to claim "Christ gave his disciples no command to write" means that the Holy Spirit did this on His own, which is heretical".
     
  9. JesusLovesOurLady

    JesusLovesOurLady Slave of the Handmaid of the Lord

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    Okay, so PeaceByJesus, and JayW have resorted to boarderline ad hominem attacks, and ad hominem is pretty much instant-lose in debates, the only people who are really debating right now are Major1 and redleghunter, although even redleghunter is trying lure me off topic a bit.

    I'm hoping to get this debate finished by Saturday, as on October 16th, I'll be starting a Mother of God debate, which I highly encourage you to join. Here's my offer, we can either continue this debate as usual and I will continue to debunk Sola Scriptura, or I can give you what you all, which is a Catholic proof-text. If you're willing, I can give a Scripture passage that proves one of the most important Dogmas in the Catholic Faith, and we spend the last week debating that. The choice is yours' you have until this evening to decide.
     
  10. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    My dear friend. You beating "Traditions" to death.

    NO ONE is saying that traditions are evil or wrong or sin.

    The problem is that when MAN MADE traditions replace the directions given in the Bible.

    That is the issue and that is what "Sola Scripture" tries to eliminate.

    Catholic Church teaches that all of its followers are to repeat the Rosary. That my dear friend IS NOT from the Bible but instead is from men and was handed down as a doctrine.
    It is an ADDED teaching of man and is not from God.

    The Catholic church teaches that Mary had no sin. That again IS NOT from the Bible but is solely from the minds of man. It is ADDED teaching from men and is not from God!

    Now YOU can copy and paste all the information you care to from Catholic apologetic websites but none of them are Biblically correct when they support and lift up the doctrines of Traditions of men over the Word of God.

    Deuteronomy 4:2.......
    "Ye shall not ADD UNTO THE WORD which I command you neither shall ye take away from it.............".

    May I also point out to you the words of Paul in 1 Timothy 4:1-3...........
    "Now the Spirit speaks expressly that in the last days some shall depart fro the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and the doctrines of devils, speaking lies in hypocrisy having their conscience seared with a hot iron............FORBIDDING TO MARRY, and commanding to abstain from meats.........".

    Now having read that, I hope that you know that the Catholic Church forbids its Bishops and priests to marry. Not only that but the RCC have been asked to abstain from eating meat on Fridays. In 1984 the rules were relaxed allowing Catholics to choose a different form of penance, such as offering up extra prayers or attending Mass.
    As a result, the abstention of eating meat on Fridays, fell out of favour with many Catholics, who now generally only observe the rule on Ash Wednesday and Good Friday.

    However following a decision made at the Bishops’ Spring Conference this week, the Archbishop of Westminster, Vincent Nichols, announced a return to the traditional method of penance every Friday. Catholics are therefore being asked to abstain from eating meat on all Fridays, while vegetarians are being advised to abstain from another sort of food that day.

    Again..........this is ADDING to the Scriptures!!!!

    Now as for Jannes and Jambres, may I say to you that they are the names of the two magicians who stood against Moses. Exodus 7:11 says to us................
    "Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the socerers, now the magicians of Egypt...........".

    Their names were actually preserved in a Targum which is an Aramaic paraphrase of a portion of the Hebrew old Test. and that is why Paul knew their names as recorded in 2 Timothy 3:8.
     
  11. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    I know you feel like that is the case, but IMO I do not see any personal attacks on you anymore than I do from you on them.

    Remember Galatians 6:7....
    "Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap."

    Now my friend......you have not debunked Sola Scriptura, simply because that is an impossibility. You have given YOUR displeasure with it and YOUR displeasure with it but that is NOT a debunking. That is only YOUR opinion which of course you are entitled to.

    Contrary to some popular misunderstandings, and obviously you as well, the Roman Catholic Church did not hold to tradition instead of Scripture. But today, the RCC upholds tradition as being held to be an additional authority alongside and coherent with Scripture. Furthermore, tradition was not seen to be static, but as something that can develop through the leading of the Holy Spirit through the history of the church. The recognition of genuine developments of doctrine in keeping with the tradition and Scripture is the responsibility of the magisterium, and ultimately, the Pope.

    That then means that in the hands of the magisterium, the Catholic tradition was used to authorize doctrines such as purgatory, the Rosary, the Assumption of Mary, the perpetual virginity of Mary and the granting of indulgences, none of which are found in Scripture.

    Now, in defending these doctrines, Catholic teaching will cite Scripture in support, but the passages cited do not in any way teach the doctrines they are said to uphold. For instance, the granting of indulgences is inferred as a particular exercise of the "power of the keys," the privilege of "binding and loosing" as mentioned by Jesus in Matthew 16:19. This power is understood by the Catholic church to have been conferred specifically on Peter and his successors (the popes), and includes the power to grant absolution (forgiveness of sin), as well as the power to require acts of penance for those who sin, or to grant indulgences (the remitting of temporal punishments for sin in purgatory).

    Whether this is what Jesus really meant by "the keys of the kingdom," and whether absolution, penance, and indulgences are legitimate implications of what he meant are questions of interpretation. But in the Catholic system, these are not open questions, since the magisterium considers the Catholic church's interpretation to be authorized by the tradition.

    In the Catholic system, though, it is actually not necessary to give scriptural validation, since doctrinal beliefs can rest on tradition apart from Scripture, or even on the pronouncement of the Pope alone (speaking ex cathedra). What this does in effect is to place the decisions of the magisterium beyond any question. The ultimate authority then is not Scripture, but the magisterium (headed by the Pope), since it is the magisterium that dictates the proper understanding of the Scriptures and the tradition. It is this state of affairs that the Reformers' affirmation of sola Scriptura addresses.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2017
  12. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    You said............
    "I'm hoping to get this debate finished by Saturday, as on October 16th".

    I am ROFL!!!!!

    You can exit anytime you choose to do so my friend......but this debate will not be over until Jesus comes again.
     
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  13. kepha31

    kepha31 Regular Member

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    "Catholic distinctives which are not manifest in the inspired record of the NT church." Wrong. That's called blind prejudice.
    THE CHURCH

    THE BIBLE

    THE SACRAMENTS

    HOLY MATRIMONY

    THE VIRGIN MARY

    THE SAINTS

    JUSTIFICATION

    SALVATION


    ESCHATOLOGY

    THE TRINITY

    Still can't find Catholic distinctives in the inspired record of the NT church??? That's because your mind is made up. No evidence will suffice to counter blind prejudice. I stick it in your face but you refuse to see it.
    I have a theory about angry anti-Catholics. Their anger at the Church goes much deeper.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2017
  14. kepha31

    kepha31 Regular Member

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    This is a rant. Cut it down to one or two topics, not rattle off 5+ topics in one post that would take 5 pages to answer.
     
  15. kepha31

    kepha31 Regular Member

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    Presbyteros is simply Greek for priest, as any dictionary will affirm. "hiereus" is for the OT priests that fell into disuse, which is why you don't see "hiereus" in the NT. The reason you are so angry over this matter is that your spiritual forefathers abolished the NT priesthood. Now you want to blame the CC.
     
  16. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Indeed. And I quote:

    “The phrase “the word of God” occurs over forty times in the New Testament. It is equated with the Old Testament (Mark 7:13). It was what Jesus preached (Luke 5:1). It was the message the apostles taught (Acts 4:31; 6:2). It was the word the Samaritans received (Acts 8:14) as given by the apostles (Acts 8:25). It was the message the Gentiles received as preached by Peter (Acts 11:1). It was the word Paul preached on his first missionary journey (Acts 13:5, 7, 44, 48-49; 15:35-36), his second missionary journey (Acts 16:32; 17:13; 18:11), and his third missionary journey (Acts 19:10). It was the focus of Luke in the books of Acts, who recounted its wide and rapid spread (Acts 6:7; 12:24; 19:20). Paul was also careful to tell the Corinthians that he spoke the word as it was given from God, that it had not been adulterated , and that it was a manifestation of the truth (2 Corinthians 2:17; 4:2). And Paul acknowledged it as the source of his preaching (Colossians 1:25; 1 Thessalonians 2:13).” (Biblical Doctrine a Systematic Summary of Bible Truth; John MacArthur and Richard Mayhue; chapter 2)
     
  17. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Can you point out the 'ad hominem' attacks by @PeaceByJesus and @JayW ? Responding to assertions and claims with a counter argument is not 'ad hominem.'

    You started with a polemic style and received the same in return. Argumentative language is not 'ad hominem.'
     
  18. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    If you truly wanted a debate you should have entered a debate challenge in the Formal Debate forum. Recommend you do so, as both parties negotiate a format and narrow down the scope of the debate. Then a staff moderator takes up and opens a thread where only the challenger and opponent can post. You are currently in a discussion thread where the greater 'viewership' will see everyone's arguments and judge them on their own.

    There are no 'winners or losers' on these threads because they can go on for months or years to no end.

    If you want more info on a formal debate I recommend contacting a CF ambassador or staff member.
     
  19. JesusLovesOurLady

    JesusLovesOurLady Slave of the Handmaid of the Lord

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  20. JesusLovesOurLady

    JesusLovesOurLady Slave of the Handmaid of the Lord

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    Oh! Okay! Now I understand! This was all just yet another attempt to draw attention away from failing Sola Scriptura, and attack Catholicism.

    Now I get it!
     
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