The Bible: God's plan for the redemption of humankind? Or... ???

[Ceallaigh]

It becomes somewhat a discussion about semantics. How do we define immortal? What does it mean that a soul is immortal? Even defining the word "soul". I think aspects can be determined that lead to reasonable conclusions, even when we can't know for sure.

We can mostly all agree that a human being has a spirit that lives on beyond this physical life. Although some stop the discussion there, claiming the spirit returns to God who gave it in the first place. But what becomes of that human spirit? Is it "absorbed" back into God? Or does it continue to live as an individual soul? (but now in direct communion with God)

So again, we can mostly all agree that a human being has a spirit that lives on beyond this physical life. All three views of the final judgment agree on this point. Even Annihilationism requires life after death before the judgment and final annihilation occur.

So, if a spiritual life is begun at conception, or birth, when does that spiritual life end? Even a spiritually dead person "lives" to face the judgment. And a Damnationist would claim that they "live" to face ECT. Unending spiritual death, if you will. I would even consider a "damned" soul to be immortal if it "lives" forever in torment. How is living/dying forever not immortality?

Therefore, if a human soul lives on in some form or another, wouldn't we call that immortality? If there is enough evidence for an afterlife, there is evidence of human immortality. Unless I am missing something here. Feel free to straighten me out. - lol

Maybe a soul or spirit doesn't continue forever. Maybe it dies too eventually, if not connected to God's immortality. There's also "soul sleep". When Saul had the medium summon Samuel's soul, Samuel said “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”.

The thing that keeps sticking in my mind is the reward of everlasting life. "Whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." That right there seems to indicate the soul parishes. Being dead but alive of course seems like a contradiction in terms.

 

[Ceallaigh]

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[Shrewd Manager]

That's where we disagree mate. But if I'm wrong, when we both get home I'll look you up and apologize, shake your hand, and... wait, will we be able to buy each other a pint in the Kingdom?

I certainly hope so. Why would St Paul mention a 'glass, darkly' if he wasn't foreshadowing pints of ambers and pales in the world to come? And think of all those medieval monks and nuns who ran breweries. And if not, the best wine will surely be available. It'll be great when all is revealed, no doubt we'll all have some things to apologise for and celebrate over a heavenly ale lol.

Almost thou persuadest me to be a Universalist. And that may be another pint I owe you.

With God, the outcome is always better than we can imagine. Where sin abounds grace abounds all the more. Anything that's fallen will be restored plus some. Ashes to diamonds.

And once again we're in agreement. Peace bruv.

And to you Jipsah, great to be able to develop friendship in this often adversarial place.

 

[Clare73]

Maybe a soul or spirit doesn't continue forever. Maybe it dies too eventually, if not connected to God's immortality. There's also "soul sleep". When Saul had the medium summon Samuel's soul, Samuel said “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”.

It was a demon disguised as Samuel that responded to the medium.
The immortal spirits of God's holy ones do not respond to mediums who traffic with unclean spirits.

The thing that keeps sticking in my mind is the reward of everlasting life. "Whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." That right there seems to indicate the soul parishes. Being dead but alive of course seems like a contradiction in terms.

Then check all the NT uses of "perish" and any other such word that you think refers to annihilation, to see if they are ever used to mean annihilation, or do they just mean "ruin."

 

[Lazarus Short]

It was a demon disguised as Samuel that responded to the medium.
The immortal spirits of God's holy ones do not respond to mediums who traffic with unclean spirits.
Then check all the NT uses of "perish" and any other such word that you think refers to annihilation, to see if they are ever used to mean annihilation, or do they just mean "ruin."

The thing raised as "Samuel" was not Samuel - correct.

I find that "perish" almost always involves the real world, or rather an exit from same.

 

[Ceallaigh]

The thing raised as "Samuel" was not Samuel - correct.

There's several theories as to what actually took place and how the story could/should be interpreted. The scripture certainly doesn't say it was a demon or anything else other than Samuel's ghost. This is another one of those situations where some people waffle between what's supposed to be literal and what's not in scripture.

I find that "perish" almost always involves the real world, or rather an exit from same.

If it's to be viewed as real world, then wouldn't everlasting life apply as much as parish? Meaning believers never parish in this world?

Also words like annihilation and ruin aren't mutually exclusive. Although one could argue that if it is ruin, that could mean brought to ruin in this world. As that's how someone being brought to ruin is usually applied in general.

 

[Saint Steven]

I certainly hope so. Why would St Paul mention a 'glass, darkly' if he wasn't foreshadowing pints of ambers and pales in the world to come? And think of all those medieval monks and nuns who ran breweries. And if not, the best wine will surely be available. It'll be great when all is revealed, no doubt we'll all have some things to apologise for and celebrate over a heavenly ale lol.

Brings this to mind. cc: @Jipsah (note: "for all peoples")

Isaiah 25:6 NIV
On this mountain the Lord Almighty will prepare a feast of rich food for all peoples, a banquet of aged wine— the best of meats and the finest of wines.

 

[Clare73]

Brings this to mind. cc: @Jipsah (note: "for all peoples")

Isaiah 25:6 NIV
On this mountain the Lord Almighty will prepare a feast of rich food for all peoples, a banquet of aged wine— the best of meats and the finest of wines.

All "people" is all mankind.

All "peoples" are people from all nations.

Feast = gospel salvation and eternal life.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Brings this to mind. cc: @Jipsah (note: "for all peoples")

Isaiah 25:6 NIV
On this mountain the Lord Almighty will prepare a feast of rich food for all peoples, a banquet of aged wine— the best of meats and the finest of wines.

Another great UR proof text. Much rejoicing!

 

[Shrewd Manager]

All "people" is all mankind.

All "peoples" are people from all nations.

Feast = gospel salvation and eternal life.

Would you change your tune if I was to inform you that your beloved KJV quoth:

And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.

Tasty!

 

[Ceallaigh]

This thread is making me hungry.

 

[Clare73]

Would you change your tune if I was to inform you that your beloved KJV quoth:

And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.

Tasty!

You have me confused with someone else.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

You have me confused with someone else.

Don't split hairs Clare. There's no difference:
Isaiah 25:6 On this mountain the LORD of Hosts will prepare a banquet for all the peoples, a feast of aged wine, of choice meat, of finely aged wine.
Strong's Hebrew: 5971. עָם (am) -- folk

 

[Clare73]

Don't split hairs Clare. There's no difference:
Isaiah 25:6 On this mountain the LORD of Hosts will prepare a banquet for all the peoples, a feast of aged wine, of choice meat, of finely aged wine.
Strong's Hebrew: 5971. עָם (am) -- folk

I would need to see a literal translation of the original language.
The newer translations do not use the plural, and for a reason. . .it's not a good translation.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I would need to see a literal translation of the original language.
The newer translations do not use the plural, and for a reason. . .it's not a good translation.

If you go to the first link there you'll see that verse in about 20 different Bibles. Some say 'peoples', others say 'people'. The Strong's link also makes no such critical distinction. It's only your dogma and refusal to accept the plain truth that's driving this Clare.

 

[Lazarus Short]

It is all too easy to read Scripture through a theo-illogical filter...

 

[Clare73]

If you go to the first link there you'll see that verse in about 20 different Bibles. Some say 'peoples', others say 'people'. The Strong's link also makes no such critical distinction. It's only your dogma and refusal to accept the plain truth that's driving this Clare.

Personal interpretation OT prophecy is not the source of Christian doctrine.

 

[Clare73]

It is all too easy to read Scripture through a theo-illogical filter...

It remains for you to Biblically demonstrate such from NT doctrine.

 

[Clare73]

The thing raised as "Samuel" was not Samuel - correct.

I find that "perish" almost always involves the real world, or rather an exit from same.

But it does not mean annihilation, just as death does not mean annihilation.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Personal interpretation OT prophecy is not the source of Christian doctrine.

Right. So the plain meaning of the scripture is not to be qualified or minimised. We're just required to take it on faith and at face value. God's going to do something great.

Clare, if you were saved by grace, and not by anything you did, why do you deny that God will save every soul the same way? It's only His expressed plan, after all.