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The Bible, and therefore preterism, is true and correct

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by parousia70, Jun 6, 2002.

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  1. Wildfire

    Wildfire Member

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    Ozark, thank you. I do remember your question and I did respond on that thread. But please understand that my time on this forum is usually brief, so I do not know the members well enough to remember what their responses were to me.
    Now, concerning what you have written; yes, I agree with part of what you have said. The kingdom of God is within us, because we are told it does not come from observation. I happen to be someone who does not take the "rapture" as being physical; many are depending on this to happen, based on the scripture you provided, and I see that as being spiritual.
    However, this world will not continue on and on, with no direction from God. That is foolish thinking; because we are told that he (God) is the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end. And just as there was a beginning, when God created the heavens and the earth, there will be an ending, when God intercedes at his chosen and appointed time.
    Jesus did not return yet; the destruction of the temple in 70AD was not the fulfillment of his prophecy. Surely, you being understanding of the carnal and the spiritual man, can see that?
    Have you ever read the book of Revelation; and if so, do you not see that there will be an end to all of life in this world where we now live?
    The new earth and the new Jerusalem, is promised to us by the creator himself. We are not living in that world yet. He is coming back. I hope you can try to see that, my friend.

    Wildfire
     
  2. Ozarkpreterist

    Ozarkpreterist New Member

    77
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    Wildfire, thank you. I understand what you are saying. At the risk of sounding like a post- millennialist, It does seem logical that something finite, as is the creation, cannot last forever. However, it is built to last a very very long time. Perhaps one of the other preterists can give us some insights on this.

    One thing that bothers me about the pre-millenial view is that it seems to doom the church to failure. If the kingdom of God is indeed within us, do we not have everything we need to bring healing to the nations? I John 4:17 says concerning the church "...as He is so also are we in the world." Moreover, even if you think the Devil has not been destroyed, John still tells us in I John 4:4 that "...greater is He who is within you than he who is in the world." Paul, in Ephesians one and two speaks of the church being seated with Him in the heavenly places and as being above all rule and authority. Revelation one tells us that we have been made KINGS and priests through Christ. Even if you do not view these scriptures from a preterist perspective, it still does not look like the church is the underdog on this planet.

    I don't see even in the final chapters of revelation that the church will ever make the world entirely Christian, but from the book as a whole I think we could make a good case that the kingdom of God will someday come to dominate the nations of the earth. Therefore, I do not see that the world is running out of control. Instead, I see that the kingdom of God is increasing (although, sometimes seemingly slowly) on the earth.

    Ozark
     
  3. davo

    davo Member

    471
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    You need to go back and read my post #43 again. Let me make it a little easier to understand:

    If the 1st century saints believed the resurrection to be in the same manner that you and other 21st century futurists believe i.e., a reconstituted materialistic physical bodily resurrection, out of literal graves -remember you're saying they believed as you do in a physical bodily resurrection: then how was it possible for some to be led astray after the likes of Hymenaeus and Philetus' teaching, that the resurrection had already past? IF they believed [remember, they were Christians] in a physical resurrection as you do, all someone had to do was look around and they would have said -"well where's the evidence, no open graves, I don't see any physical change etc -NOTHING'S CHANGED!" Put simply, Paul could have appealed to all this "lack of a physical resurrection" evidence -yet he and no one else then did.

    And do you know why? -because Paul and the 1st century believers WERE NOT EXPECTING A PHYSICAL RESURRECTION! So, 2Tim 2:18 that you put forward to imply that the preteristic understanding of Biblical resurrection is heresy like that of Hymenaeus and Philetus, actually proves our position to be correct and and leaves you dangling by your own noose. [still confused? read it again]

    Say what!? Now your favourite verse -"every eye shall see...," miraculously doesn't apply any more -well, how convenient. [So what -are you now denying the resurrection at the same time as the Parousia as well?] -I love the flexibilty of dispensational theology :( [and I use "theology" with reservation] -at least you're consistent. :(


    Well let's quote it and see if as you say "it is indeed physical death WILL BE ABOLISHED":

    2Tim 1:10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has [present tense] abolished death and brought [present tense] life and immortality to light through the gospel,

    Seeing as this verse that Paul wrote is in the present tense logic says the death mentioned CANNOT be physical as you say, as people were still dying -it was spiritual death i.e., separation from God, it was this that Jesus rectified through the Cross and that was coming to fruition in their yet expected "Day of the Lord" -His Parousia.

    Jesus said in-kind in Jn 8:51 "...if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death."

    And again in Jn 11:26 "And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?"

    Looking through the distorted lense of futurism you make Jesus out to be a liar -He however spoke the truth, yet you are in gross error -not understanding the Scriptures nor the power of God.

    davo
     
  4. Wildfire

    Wildfire Member

    454
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    Ozark, what you have written is something to sit and think about. Yes, I agree that there is strength among those who believe, as the disciples have instructed. Were their words of comfort written on our behalf, so that we may find comfort in this world and in times of tribulation? Do you remember what jesus said about the comforter, being the spirit of truth, whom this world cannot recieve? And if we <ask> him come to us, he will guide us to all truth and understanding?
    No, I don't believe that satan has been released yet; in Revelation he comes out of the abyss/ bottomless pit at the appointed time--with wrath against those who keep the commandments of God (because his time is short). And after he (Satan) overcomes the two witnesses, who spoke against him during the great tribulation, then the time for peace will come. Jesus returns to the earth with the saints to overcome the beast/satan and restore peace.
    We cannot do this without his help; but remember, that blessed are those who do his work, for greater is he in the kingdom of heaven. It is <good> to be persecuted, it is <good> to be ridiculed, because Jesus himself suffered all of these things. Do you see the pattern of this world in relation of the life of Jesus? We are living in a lukewarm time of the church; (church=people) there is little fear among many regarding God. He has become a joke on television, an angry song on the radio, a moneymaking oppurtunity. (remember Jesus overturning the tables in the temple-can you imagine what he would do today!)
    We are told that in the last days there will be a thirst for God, a thirst for the Word of God. But in the world you will have <affliction> but BE OF GOOD CHEER, FOR I HAVE OVERCOME THE WORLD.

    Wildfire
     
  5. davo

    davo Member

    471
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    That's interesting, who exactly are you meaning by "church" and what about "lukewarm'?

    davo
     
  6. Wildfire

    Wildfire Member

    454
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    Hi Davo, the church has not been referred to in the bible as a building, but a group of people. The correct translation in greek of the word church was (assembly). Lukewarm means not hot or cold. Just blah, inbetween, driftng; kinda reminds me of those who are at (church) in a physical sense, but not spiritually.
    I see a very laid back attitude in the world with Jesus Christ and Gods word. Yada, yada, yada. Who cares? There is little fear among men, with consequences of their actions or the breaking of his commandments.
    This fast paced, busy world has no time for Christ. Whats has subsituted reading the bible to your children, is watching television. I am in no way condemning that, because I too watch tv with my kids, but I also make time to impress upon them, how <important> it is to have a strong relationship with God.
    To me, there is nothing sacred left in this world. Everything has been drug out of the closet and there is nothing left hidden inside. What used to be blasphemous, sinful, and wrong is now acceptable and common among people.
    Just my own thoughts.

    Wildfire
     
  7. Auntie

    Auntie THANK YOU JESUS!!

    +603
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    Wildfire,

    I really like your posts, very very much. You speak the truth, from the heart of God.

    Thank you, brother Wildfire.
     
  8. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

    +7
    In 2 Timothy 1:10 Paul is speaking about spiritual death, which is why it is written in the tense it is; it is very clear and that should be very clear to a preterist since the resurrection hadn't happened yet, when 2 Timothy was written. Whereas Revelation 21, is clearly speaking of physical death, since spiritual death had already been conquered at the cross for all who have and do believe.
    Look at the contrast, 2 Tim says Jesus has abolished death, it is already done, whreas in Rev 21, there shall be no more death, etc, which means there is the physical death that has yet to be dealt with, since in 2 Tim, it is made clear that spiritual death has already been abolished for the redeemed.
    There is no reference in the Bible as to whether the resurrection around the time of the rapture (1Thess 4), will be noticed by anyone.

    This truth is very plain to see. We who are born again will never taste spiritual death, yet many of us will die a physical death and will be raised in glory.
     
  9. Wildfire

    Wildfire Member

    454
    +1
    Thank you auntie, you are very sweet.

    Wildfire
     
  10. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    All human beings have an "appointment" with physical death.

    Heb 9:27
    And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment.


    Thats why It's called the resurrection of the DEAD.
     
  11. Mike Beidler

    Mike Beidler Evolutionary Creationist

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    I'm somewhat confused. In Rev 21, are you saying that there is no more physical death? I beg to differ. If you believe that Rev 21 is the "new heavens and earth," then how do you account for physical death in the "new heavens and earth" described in Isaiah 65:17-20?
     
  12. Ozarkpreterist

    Ozarkpreterist New Member

    77
    +1
    Wildfire,

    We tend I think to judge reality by what we can see with our eyes or by what we are personally experiencing at the time. What is happening in our "corner of the world" can even shape our eschatology. For example, Although I am originally from California, I attended collage in Texas. One of my best friends during my collage days was from New Mexico. One day I stepped out of the dorm and looked up into the most bizarre looking sky I had ever seen. Even though it was morning, it was very dark, and it had a sort of eerie green appearance. (I later found out that conditions were ripe for a tornado.) My friend who had also never seen such a thing came running up to me and said, "Don't you see! It is the end of the world!" Never mind that it was sunny 100 miles away. My friend formed his entire world view in that moment by what he could see out his own window. (Please, Wildfire, I am not talking about the moon you saw. What you saw was truly a mystery. This was not.)

    I think people have judged who is prevailing the darkness or the kingdom of God by looking out the window (or looking at the TV) for a very long time. The way I understand it, in the 19th century preterism and post- millennialism were on the rise. Then came the bloodiest century ever--the twentieth. This is one reason for the rise of the "Its the end of the world!" mindset. People looked out the window said that things can't last much longer.

    The "look out the window" way of judging reality can go the other way too. I live in a small town where the crime rate is so low I could probably sleep on my front porch in suit made of money (I wish I had one!) and sleep well with no fear. God is moving here, pastors are praying together. In fact a near by city has more churches per capita than any in the country. Plus, I don't just watch TV for the news. Do you realize how dramatically the kingdom of God is advancing in other parts of the world? Whole cities are coming to the Lord in many countries. In fact, more people have been saved since WWII than in the previous 19 centuries combined. From my little corner of the world, I might look out the window and say, "Ah, the kingdom is advancing, and this is a very great time to be alive. I might even say that, because of what I see, preterism must be correct!

    Which view is the best to go by? NEITHER! The best thing is not to go by what we see but by what God has revealed. We as preterists believe that God has revealed in His word, Jesus, Who stands now as King over all the nations of the earth. And He has defeated sin, Satan, and death (spiritual). Moreover, God has revealed that we His church are in Him, and are thus partakers of His victory and rule. It is in this view that we stand no matter what it looks like outside. I hope this helps you understand us better.

    Ozark
     
  13. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

    +7
    1 Thess. 4:17
     
  14. Mike Beidler

    Mike Beidler Evolutionary Creationist

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    There's a problem with that verse. It's not actually speaking of rapturing living bodies immediately after the "dead in Christ" rise from Hades, but rather our souls at death (post-AD 70). Allow me to repost a section of David B. Curtis' sermon on this very subject.

     
  15. davo

    davo Member

    471
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    1Cor 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

    "Afterward" -meanining, later-on etc is exactly the same Greek word and tense as in 1Thess 4:17 "Then". Showing that it isn't an immediate chronological event, but as has been shown above by David Curtis.

    davo
     
  16. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    What an astounding fact! Praise God!
     
  17. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

    +7
    I could provide plenty of commentaries too, to support the rapture of the bride of Christ and that the word resurrection in Scripture always refers to a bodily resurrection, and that Christ has yet to return. Would it change your mind?
     
  18. kern

    kern Miserere Nobis

    +7
    Catholic
    I am curious where you came up with this statistic. Who keeps records on how many people have been saved in the world? And how would we get records from the 300's or 400's, for instance?

    -Chris
     
  19. Mike Beidler

    Mike Beidler Evolutionary Creationist

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    Before you give your evidence, I'd still like you to answer the claims of Curtis ... is it a valid interpretation based on the original Greek?

    After you answer Curtis, then you can provide me Scriptural evidence linking the resurrection with the raising of the exact same body we once had. (Jesus, IMO, is the only one whose body was not to see decay. His bodily resurrection was necessary to provide proof of His power and to give the disciples the ammunition to prove they weren't simply seeing a ghost.)

    I can tell you now that there is only one verse in the entire NT that contains both "resurrection" and "body." Even then, an argument for a spiritual resurrection of the soul into a brand spankin' new body having angelic/Christ-like properties can be made.

    Let the fun begin. :)
     
  20. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

    +7
    Before I answer anything, would you even take into consideration anything that I would post? Or would you just brush it off as futurist fluff?
     
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