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The Bible, and therefore preterism, is true and correct

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by parousia70, Jun 6, 2002.

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  1. coastie

    coastie Hallelujah Adonai Yeshua!

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    LOL... I prefer the term "discuss with you" to "pick on you". ;) I need some time though, I'm low on resources when I'm at work. :sigh:
     
  2. solo66 man

    solo66 man Well-Known Member

    +2
    As you all have agreed, I believe, you are saying it is all a matter of interpretation. You preterists have some very good points and are almost convincing. I am not one to be up on prophesy and the like. But I have a need to throw a monkey wrench of sorts into your arguement of times, time and timing.
    Let me just present these few verses to see what your response is.
    Psalm 90

    3 You turn men back to dust,
    saying, "Return to dust, O sons of men."

    4 For a thousand years in your sight
    are like a day
    that has just gone by,
    or like a watch in the night.

    And,

    2 Peter 3

    7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

    8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

    9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

    As you can see, looking at time as is presented here, your accounting of time is quite different than God's.
    So, you seperate understanding the prophesy in the bible from the spiritual view. I suggest you rethink your position as is evidenced in Genisis. God told Adam that if they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, they would surely die. By your logic, as soon as they ate from the tree, they would have faced a certain physical death.
    But is clear it was a spiritual death. It is this way throughout the bible. This tells me that the spiritual interpretation you consider false is true or not false.
     
  3. Auntie

    Auntie THANK YOU JESUS!!

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    John 8:44
    Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.



    1st John 3:8
    He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning.
     
  4. Mike Beidler

    Mike Beidler Evolutionary Creationist

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    No argument there. Satan certainly fathered sin, but it does not make him the direct cause of sin in our lives. As human beings with a fallen nature, we need no prompting from the Devil. The seed is not the same as the father.
     
  5. Mike Beidler

    Mike Beidler Evolutionary Creationist

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    This is simply stating that God is outside of time and the creator of it. No connection to prophecy.


    Although most people would say that this verse teaches that God is the creator of time, and thus outside of it, I believe it may be connected to Revelation 20. :idea:

    Peter wrote this letter toward the end of his life during the reign of Nero and there is a distinct possibility that it was written after Revelation (if one holds to the position that Revelation was written during the reign of Nero as well). If so, Peter may be attempting to assuage those individuals who were confused over the nature of the Millennium and its proper length. The scoffers may have had an understanding that they were in the last days, but the generation Christ spoke of that would witness his return in judgment was almost gone. (Many commentators believe that the "fathers" in 2 Peter 3:4 was a reference to those first Christians who died :sick: after Christ's death and resurrection, e.g., James, Stephen, etc.)

    These scoffers :mad:, mentioned in 2 Peter 3:3, believing Christ's prophecy to be on the brink of failure, began to follow after their own lusts and mock the church. Peter may have been attempting to convince them that the Millennium (Jesus' "long time" :sleep:; see Matthew 25:19) was soon to end and Jesus' return was imminent. Essentially, Peter was holding up a sign that read: THE END IS COMING! hoping to bring them "to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9).


    You make a profound distinction between physical and spiritual death, one that is key in tackling the correct understanding of man's "resurrection" and/or "rapture." :clap:

    Man, I love these smilies!!!!
     
  6. coastie

    coastie Hallelujah Adonai Yeshua!

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    KJV reads "But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust and is enticed." (closest simlar translation is "trapped")Did he entice himself? Hmmmm.

    "Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death." I don't see how that portion proved your point though.

    In reference to your assertions... Chew on this for a little while:Mat 13:37-40

    He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
    The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked (one);
    The enemy that sowed them is the devil ; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
    As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.


    Rev 20:4

    And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    I will allow others to get what they want out of this, but it sure appears to me that those people would be the one's (just like you and I) who did not accept the mark of the beast.

    The one's be-headed would be whom, by your interpretation?
    I see no where that it says that they are saints.

    What do you think the mark of the beast is/was?

    20:1 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, and shal go out to deceive the four quarters of the Earth, Gog and Magog to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

    How do you explain this away?

    That's tautology, can you prove to me that it shouldn't be? :p

    The Bible says what the dragon is

    "And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years."

    How would I know? I assume so since the Bible says there is. Maybe it isn't a key like we know a key to be, but then again, maybe it is an old skeleton key or something.

    Not the part about the Dragon :)... because the Bible tells me otherwise. I don't question God, he let's me know what I need to know.

    1 john 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, where of ye have heard that it (hey look, that's a singular word); and even now it is in the world.

    The infallible word of God that needs no help from us for it to have meaning. :)(Yes I understood the question)

    We all do the best we can, whether you are right or wrong is ultimately up to God, I'm just trying to help.

    What is that supposed to mean about the "Catholic Church, of Kingdom Hall"?

    Why do you use the term Superior? Is that a little sarcastic jab? No I do not believe that the church's (not mine) beliefs are superior... just correct.


    I'd say that the fact that he didn't return is proof enough wouldn't you?
     
  7. Defender of the Faith 777

    Defender of the Faith 777 Well-Known Member

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    Like a said, I'm a way-newbie, and so I'll post questions already asked if you don't mind.

    If we're living in New Jerusalem, isn't Satan supposed to be in the abyss, the demons in the lake of fire?

    Aren't we supposed to dwell with God here?

    Why is there sin if this is truly the New Jerusalem from heaven?
     
  8. coastie

    coastie Hallelujah Adonai Yeshua!

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    I asked that question already brother... Watch for fiery darts ;)
     
  9. Auntie

    Auntie THANK YOU JESUS!!

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    Even Jesus was tempted of the devil:
    Mt 4:1
    Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

    And this verse is a clear warning to all Christians:
    1st Peter 5:8
    Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour

    I used to have a tom cat named Rascal. He would hide in the shrubs and observe the birds, squirrels, rabbits etc. Rascal was waiting for the perfect moment to pounce on whichever creature was not paying attention to their surroundings. So which creature did Rascal always get? The one that thought Rascal was not there.

    If you believe the devil is not around, perhaps he has already ensnared you, and devoured you with his lies.
     
  10. Mike Beidler

    Mike Beidler Evolutionary Creationist

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    I never said Satan never tempted anyone. I'm just saying Satan's not necessary for temptation to begin.

    Indeed, this was a very dire warning ... but to whom? Again, 1 Peter was most likely written during the reign of Nero and the "short time" that Satan had (Rev 12:12) after he was released from the Abyss (Rev 20:7). This was a warning to his immediate readers!!! According to consistent preterism, this warning no longer applies to Christians of today. Rather, we are victims of our own desires (James 1:14-15).

    Satan has no power over me. I'm covered by the blood of the Lamb! :bow:
     
  11. Auntie

    Auntie THANK YOU JESUS!!

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    According to the MILLIONS of Christians who have gone before us, this warning does apply to us today.
     
  12. davo

    davo Member

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    One can't speak for Rascal, but if we go to the Bible we see Sin, not Satan crouching in the bushes ready to pounce -or was that hiding behind the door :)

    Genesis 4:7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it."

    I'll take the Word any day over dear ole Rascal.

    davo
     
  13. gwyyn

    gwyyn Active Member

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    ok one minute it's satan is no longer here, and then it's satan is here

    can we make up our minds????????
     
  14. Mike Beidler

    Mike Beidler Evolutionary Creationist

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    I have no problem with this passage. Satan certainly planted some pretty bad seeds. But remember ... the farmer need not be there to watch what grows.

    That's correct. Certain Christians (i.e., martyrs for the faith) had the distinct pleasure of entering the presence of God earlier than the rest of the dead in Christ, who (according to preterist eschatology) did not rise until AD 70.

    They have to be. Saints are what Christians are!

    In the OT Law, God told the Israelites to bind His word to their foreheads and hands. Today, you can see that Orthodox Jews take this literally and wear phylacteries on their foreheads and hands with little scriptures contained in the boxes. What this did for the Jews was remind them that their actions (with their hands) and their thoughts (with their heads) had to remain captive to God's word in all instances.

    The mark of the beast, I believe, was emperor worship through both thought and/or deed, corresponding with the figurative mark on the head and/or hand.

    Honestly, I'm still studying the whole Gog/Magog war, but I'll explain to you what I know at this point in the game. The Gog/Magog war in Rev 20 is the same as the Gog/Magog war in Ezekiel 38-39. The comparisons leave me without a doubt. As for the identification of Gog/Magog, it very well may refer to the return of Pharisiacal Jews from Asia Minor to persecute the Christians in Judea prior to the onset of the Jewish War against Rome. God essentially gathered the wicked Jews in order to bring about their destruction.

    I just found this online. It may be of some help. http://www.preterist.org/articles-old/ezekiel_38_39.htm

    The "it" is referring to the spirit (SINGULAR!) of antichrist. It is a general sprit, like a spirit of contentiousness, or a spirit of compassion. Greek grammar demands the singular-ness of "it."

    Both the Catholic Church and the Jehovah's Witnesses (aka The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, who meet in churches called "Kingdom Halls") claim to be infallible interpreters of the Scriptures.

    Nope. I simply assumed you believe your views to be superior to mine just as I believe my views to be superior to yours. ;)

    Ah, but a correct view is inherently superior. :p

    Ah, the crux of the issue. I do believe He returned already! But you fail to see that. I don't blame you. Neither did I a few months ago.
     
  15. Auntie

    Auntie THANK YOU JESUS!!

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    aaahhh.....but the KJV says:

    Genesis 4: 6-7

    And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

    If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be HIS desire, and thou shalt rule over HIM.

    I wonder who him is?????
     
  16. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

    +7
    Magog is Russia. It seems according to Scripture, in 2 Timothy to be exact, there were preterists.



    2Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
     
  17. davo

    davo Member

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    g'day solo66 :wave: -can you explain again what you're saying here -what you say about spiritual death in the garden is exactly where it's at -from the "fulfilled" position, and I naturally agree, yet the tone of your post seems to be a challenge of soughts. I may have missed something somewhere, but who's saying the "spiritual interpretation is false?"

    davo
     
  18. Mike Beidler

    Mike Beidler Evolutionary Creationist

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    What's your proof? Many futurists have dropped that claim like a hot rock over the past decade or so. Even Hal Lindsey abandoned that belief as recently as 1998.

    Trying to connect Russia to Magog is an exercise in futility.

    When 2 Timothy was written (prior to AD 70), the charge of heresy was legitimate. Since preterists believe the resurrection occured at Christ's return in AD 70, your charge of heresy does not apply. Nice try. :p
     
  19. Thunderchild

    Thunderchild Sheep in Wolf's clothing

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    Aye, sin was referred to as him. Wisdom was referred to as her - and that because the Hebrew has "he" and "she," but not "it."
     
  20. Thunderchild

    Thunderchild Sheep in Wolf's clothing

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    Hmmmm. I'll copy this to Word so as I can give it proper attention.
    That would depend on whether the Bible itself provides (through the mentioned "proper context") a proper interpretation of what is written that goes beyond the literal. If other passages, for example, show that "seeing" means not "looking at" but "perceiving the existence of," then it is perfectly in order to give a qualified no.
     
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