The Bible and Older Dictionaries say that 'wine" is also grape juice.

Ken Rank

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The only agenda I have is preaching the truth of God's Word.
The dictionaries of old speak against what people are trying to cover up today.
Jesus did not drink intoxicating wine. There are so many problems with the idea of Jesus drinking an intoxicating beverage I do not even know where to begin. But I have provided 6 points in Scripture to show you in another thread.

The Bible and older dictionaries are clear. Wine can also be referred to as grape juice. But today's culture is so in love with alcohol that they will not allow people to think otherwise. To speak out against the truths of alcohol is to be a villain and or some fanatic. But I believe Jesus and His Word. He came to bring us life and not death.
Dictionaries of old? We have 2000-3000 year old texts and then we have dictionaries that are what, 100 years old or less? I said wine CAN be just juice in some places, but that is ENGLISH. The underlying languages and the context reveal that messiah, the disciples, and others drank wine. If you don't agree, fine... but that is biblical truth. Unless you are KJV only, in which case, you'll never see this. No matter to me. Be well.
 
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SPF

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I believe the Israelites bought and stored wine in a strong alcoholic state, but when they drank it for recreational purposes or as a part of observances, it was diluted with water
First off, I wonder why you believe this. Do you have evidence for this? Or do you just hope it's true and believe it's true because it's necessary in order to maintain the integrity of your position?

If so, you might want to remove Deuteronomy 14:26 from your Bible - "...and spend the money for whatever you desire - oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the Lord your God and rejoice, you and your household."
 
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First off, I wonder why you believe this. Do you have evidence for this? Or do you just hope it's true and believe it's true because it's necessary in order to maintain the integrity of your position?

If so, you might want to remove Deuteronomy 14:26 from your Bible - "...and spend the money for whatever you desire - oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the Lord your God and rejoice, you and your household."

Fermented wine in the Greek and NT eras was regularly diluted with water.

The Talmud (200 B.C. — A.D. 200) records the Jewish practice of regularly reducing the effects of wine by a 3/1 or 2/1 ratio of water to wine. In the rabbinic period “Yayin is to be distinguished from Shekar[strong drink]: the former is diluted with water; the latter is undiluted.” The Jewish Mishnah said, “They do not say the Benediction over the wine until water has been added to it.” The normal mixture for the Jews was three parts water to one part wine. In the Passover ritual during NT times the four cups every Jew was to drink during the ceremony had to be mixed three parts water to one part wine. This practice is reflected as common during the inter-testament period in 2 Maccabees 15:39: “It is harmful to drink wine alone, or again to drink water alone [bacteria issues], while wine mixed with water is sweet and delicious and enhances one’s enjoyment.”

This dilution process reduced the alcoholic content of the wine down to approximately 2.25–2.75%. In contrast to the ancient world, the modern world does not dilute the effects of alcohol. Beer is 3.5% to 4.5% and typically served in 12-16 ounce containers; table wines are as much as 14%; fortified wines are 18-24%; hard liquor is 40% (80 proof).

A diluted wine would reduce the risks of drunkenness from that of an undiluted wine. Peter argued that the Christians at Pentecost were not drunk since it was only the third hour (9:00 AM). Normally, one had to linger with the wine or be “beside wine” (1 Timothy 3:3) in order to be intoxicated.

The Greeks practiced dilution and the practice eventuallyspread throughout the Roman world including Palestine. Pliny’s work entitled “Natural History” mentions an 8 to 1 ratio of water to wine. Other Classical Greek writers mention similar ratios: Hesiod–3 to 1, Alexis–4 to 1, Diocles — 2 to 1. Mnesitheus of Athens said: “The gods have revealed wine to mortals, to be the greatest blessing for those who use it aright, but for those who use it without measure, the reverse. For it gives food to them that take it and strength in mind and body. In medicine it is most beneficial … In daily intercourse, to those who mix and drink it moderately, it gives good cheer; but if you overstep the bounds, it brings violence. Mix it half and half and you get madness; unmixed, bodily collapse” (Stein, “Wine Drinking,” p. 9).

According to Stein, dilution was practiced in the early centuries of the church. Justin Martyr (150 A.D.) described the Lord’s Supper as “Bread is brought, wine and water, and the elder sends up prayers and thanksgiving” (Apology, I, 67, 5). Cyprian (250 A.D.) said, “Thus, therefore, in considering the cup of the Lord, water alone cannot be offered, even as wine alone cannot be offered. For if anyone offers wine only, the blood of Christ is dissociated from us; but if the water be alone, the people are dissociated from Christ. …. Thus the cup of the Lord is not indeed water alone nor wine alone, unless each be mingled with the other” (Epistle, LXII, 2, 11 and 13). Clement of Alexandria (late 2nd century) said, “It is best for the wine to be mixed with as much water as possible. … For both are works of God and the mixing of the two, both of water and wine produce health. …To the necessary element, the water, which is in the greatest quantity, there is to be mixed in some of the useful element.”

It appears that Paul sets the standard for the early church in Titus 1 and 1 Timothy 3 of “not beside wine,” not “much wine,” and not drinking water exclusively but using a little wine for one’s stomach. “Strong drink” (sikera) seems to be completely off limits in the NT; it is only mentioned once in the NT in reference to the abstention of John the Baptist. John was a Nazirite, a term which comes from a Hebrew verb which means to “separate” or “abstain.” Amos chastised Israel for their treatment of the Nazirites in forcing them to drink wine (Amos 2:12). On the other hand, God commended the Rechabites for their abstinence and held this tribe in high regard for their faithfulness (Jer 35:1-19).

Additional quotes supporting the ancient practice of dilution:

“In NT times the practice of dilution seems to have been usual.” ((A. R. S. Kennedy, “Wine and Strong Drink,” Dictionary of the Bible, rev. ed. [New York: Scribner’s, 1963] pp. 1038-39.))

“The wine of classical antiquity was very different from modern wine. They . . . always diluted it with water before consumption . . . . Only barbarians drank undiluted wine.”

“In all these countries [Syria, Palestine, Egypt], wine was always diluted with water, a long-standing custom in Mediterranean regions, where pure potable water is not very common”

“At a latter period, however, the Greek use of diluted wines had attained such sway that the writer of 2 Maccabees speaks (15:39) of undiluted wine as ‘distasteful.’ This dilution is so normal in the following centuries that the Mishcan take it for granted and, indeed, Rabbi Eliezer even forbade saying the table-blessing over undiluted wine. The proportion of water was large, only one-third or one-fourth of the total mixture being wine. Note— The wine of the Last Supper, accordingly, may be described in modern terms as a sweet, red, fermented wine, rather highly diluted [emphasis mine].” The reference in Isaiah 1:22 to diluted wine as bad should not be taken as a proof that Jews did not dilute wine, but as a metaphor of spiritual adulteration (cf. Isa 1:21).

“The use of wine at the paschal feast . . . had become an established custom at all events in the post-Babylonian period. The wine was mixed with warm water on these occasions . . . . Hence in the early Christian Church it was usual to mix the sacramental wine with water.”

“He, too, will drink of the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength [“akratou” from “akratos” meaning “undiluted”] into the cup of his wrath” (Rev 14:10a).


Source:
Why Believers Today Should Abstain from Alcohol (Part 1)
 
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Dictionaries of old? We have 2000-3000 year old texts and then we have dictionaries that are what, 100 years old or less? I said wine CAN be just juice in some places, but that is ENGLISH. The underlying languages and the context reveal that messiah, the disciples, and others drank wine. If you don't agree, fine... but that is biblical truth. Unless you are KJV only, in which case, you'll never see this. No matter to me. Be well.

You did not grow up in Bible times writing and speaking Hebrew and Greek amongst the apostles. You are taking it by faith that those who translated your concordance are doing so correctly. Even then... you have to choose from a variety of definitions. How do you know? The short answer is you don't know unless you compare it with the English. See, God's Word did not fail to be translated into our world language today. God was perfectly capable of communicating in other men's language at Pentecost just fine. God does not change. He speaks plainly in words that we understand and speak even now. But if you want to act like you know a language that does not exist anymore, then go right ahead. I will stick to a language that I do know because God is not going to hold me accountable for knowing another language that I cannot possibly know with 100% certainty. I do not have a Paul to visit or a Peter to talk to in order to confirm what they were saying in the Greek.

But lets not kid ourselves. People today love alcohol. There is an agenda going on. They changed the dictionaries to make alcohol this friendly and amazing thing. Alcohol companies today send out false propoganda to say that it has great health benefits and do not tell you the bad side of things. They are after all out to make money. They are trying to run a business. They do not want today's dictionaries warning people about the truths of alcohol. They can't have that.
 
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The Bible and Older Dictionaries say that 'wine" is also grape juice.
The bible was not written in English. English did not even exist when the bible was written. The bible does not say "wine is grape juice". That's absurd. Wine contains alcohol and always has.

I didn't expect older dictionaries to convince everyone here. I am merely here to inform folks of the truth. It is up to them what they want to do with that truth.
 
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Jason,

Nice try but it runs aground on verses such as Eph 5:18 (NLT): 'Don't be drunk with wine, because that will ruin your life. Instead, be filled with the Holy Spirit' ....

Please show me how I can become drunk with grape juice.

Oz

The Israelites purchased and stored intoxicating wine (and they used it for medical reasons sometimes), but when they drank for recreational purposes or for observances of the Lord, they diluted it with water. So it would be harder to get drunk off of. But seeing they stored wine in an undiluted state in most cases (i.e. leather pouches, etc.), they could get drunk off drinking it undiluted (Which would go against how they normally were supposed to drink it, which was supposed to be with a dilution of water so as not to get so easily intoxicated).
 
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So according to the OP John 2 should read as follows:

On the third day there was a wedding in Cana of Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there. 2 Now both Jesus and His disciples were invited to the wedding. 3 And when they ran out of grape juice, the mother of Jesus said to Him, “They have no grape juice.”

4 Jesus said to her, “Woman, what does your concern have to do with Me? My hour has not yet come.”

5 His mother said to the servants, “Whatever He says to you, do it.

6 Now there were set there six waterpots of stone, according to the manner of purification of the Jews, containing twenty or thirty gallons apiece. 7 Jesus said to them, “Fill the waterpots with water.” And they filled them up to the brim. 8 And He said to them, “Draw some out now, and take it to the master of the feast.” And they took it. 9 When the master of the feast had tasted the water that was made grape juice, and did not know where it came from (but the servants who had drawn the water knew), the master of the feast called the bridegroom. 10 And he said to him, “Every man at the beginning sets out the good grape juice, and when the guests have well drunk, then the inferior grape juice. You have kept the good grape juice until now!”


Is it just me, or does that not make any sense?

The Israelites drank a diluted wine. It was still alcoholic but it's alcohol level was a lot lower than today's wines. However, the wine that Jesus made was 100% fresh grape juice.
 
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well...at least this guy has moved on from the whole 'sinless perfection' thing.

Well, good thing Jesus has never moved on from such a truth;
And I will continue to trust in what He says (within His Word).
 
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Der Alte

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You did not grow up in Bible times writing and speaking Hebrew and Greek amongst the apostles. You are taking it by faith that those who translated your concordance are doing so correctly. Even then... you have to choose from a variety of definitions. How do you know? The short answer is you don't know unless you compare it with the English. See, God's Word did not fail to be translated into our world language today. God was perfectly capable of communicating in other men's language at Pentecost just fine. God does not change. He speaks plainly in words that we understand and speak even now. But if you want to act like you know a language that does not exist anymore, then go right ahead. I will stick to a language that I do know because God is not going to hold me accountable for knowing another language that I cannot possibly know with 100% certainty. I do not have a Paul to visit or a Peter to talk to in order to confirm what they were saying in the Greek.
But lets not kid ourselves. People today love alcohol. There is an agenda going on. They changed the dictionaries to make alcohol this friendly and amazing thing. Alcohol companies today send out false propoganda to say that it has great health benefits and do not tell you the bad side of things. They are after all out to make money. They are trying to run a business. They do not want today's dictionaries warning people about the truths of alcohol. They can't have that
.
I wonder if the Jews also did not know their Hebrew language?
Jewish Encyclopedia-Wine
There were different kinds of wine. "Yayin" was the ordinary matured, fermented wine, "tirosh" was a new wine, and "shekar" was an old, powerful wine ("strong drink"). The red wine was the better and stronger (Ps. lxxv. 9 [A. V. 8]; Prov. xxiii. 31). Perhaps the wine of Helbon (Ezek. xxvii. 18) and the wine of Lebanon (Hos. xiv. 7) were white wines. The vines of Hebron were noted for their large clustersof grapes (Num. xiii. 23). Samaria was the center of vineyards (Jer. xxxi. 5; Micah i. 6), and the Ephraimites were heavy wine-drinkers (Isa. xxviii. 1). There were also "yayin ha-reḳaḥ" (spiced wine; Cant. viii. 2), "ashishah" (hardened sirup of grapes), "shemarim (wine-dregs), and "ḥomeẓ yayin" (vinegar). Some wines were mixed with poisonous substances ("yayin tar'elah"; Ps. lx. 5; comp. lxxv.9, "mesek" [mixture]). The "wine of the condemned" ("yen 'anushim") is wine paid as a forfeit (Amos ii. 8), and "wine of violence" (Prov. iv. 17) is wine obtained by illegal means.
—In Rabbinical Literature:
Wine is called "yayin" because it brings lamentation and wailing ("yelalah" and "wai") into the world, and "tirosh" because one that drinks it habitually is certain to become poor (
V12p533001.jpg
). R. Kahana said the latter term is written sometimes
V12p533002.jpg
, and sometimes
V12p533003.jpg
; that means, if drunk in moderation it gives leadership (
V12p533004.jpg
= "head"); if drunk in excess it leads to poverty (Yoma 76b). "Tirosh" includes all kinds of sweet juices and must, and does not include fermented wine (Tosef., Ned. iv. 3). "Yayin" is to be distinguished from "shekar"; the former is diluted with water ("mazug"); the latter is undiluted ("yayin ḥai"; Num. R. x. 8; comp. Sifre, Num. 23). In Talmudic usage "shekar" means "mead," or "beer," and according to R. Papa, it denotes drinking to satiety and intoxication (Suk. 49b).

In metaphorical usage, wine represents the essence of goodness. The Torah, Jerusalem, Israel, the Messiah, the righteous—all are compared to wine. The wicked are likened unto vinegar, and the good man who turns to wickedness is compared to sour wine. Eleazar b. Simeon was called "Vinegar, the son of Wine" (B. M. 83b). The wine which is kept for the righteous in the world to come has been preserved in the grape ever since the six days of creation (Ber. 34b).
WINE - JewishEncyclopedia.com
 
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Jason, and what of the verse I quoted for you? Deuteronomy 14:26 from your Bible - "...and spend the money for whatever you desire - oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the Lord your God and rejoice, you and your household."
 
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I wonder if the Jews also did not know their Hebrew language?
Jewish Encyclopedia-Wine
There were different kinds of wine. "Yayin" was the ordinary matured, fermented wine, "tirosh" was a new wine, and "shekar" was an old, powerful wine ("strong drink"). The red wine was the better and stronger (Ps. lxxv. 9 [A. V. 8]; Prov. xxiii. 31). Perhaps the wine of Helbon (Ezek. xxvii. 18) and the wine of Lebanon (Hos. xiv. 7) were white wines. The vines of Hebron were noted for their large clustersof grapes (Num. xiii. 23). Samaria was the center of vineyards (Jer. xxxi. 5; Micah i. 6), and the Ephraimites were heavy wine-drinkers (Isa. xxviii. 1). There were also "yayin ha-reḳaḥ" (spiced wine; Cant. viii. 2), "ashishah" (hardened sirup of grapes), "shemarim (wine-dregs), and "ḥomeẓ yayin" (vinegar). Some wines were mixed with poisonous substances ("yayin tar'elah"; Ps. lx. 5; comp. lxxv.9, "mesek" [mixture]). The "wine of the condemned" ("yen 'anushim") is wine paid as a forfeit (Amos ii. 8), and "wine of violence" (Prov. iv. 17) is wine obtained by illegal means.
—In Rabbinical Literature:
Wine is called "yayin" because it brings lamentation and wailing ("yelalah" and "wai") into the world, and "tirosh" because one that drinks it habitually is certain to become poor (
V12p533001.jpg
). R. Kahana said the latter term is written sometimes
V12p533002.jpg
, and sometimes
V12p533003.jpg
; that means, if drunk in moderation it gives leadership (
V12p533004.jpg
= "head"); if drunk in excess it leads to poverty (Yoma 76b). "Tirosh" includes all kinds of sweet juices and must, and does not include fermented wine (Tosef., Ned. iv. 3). "Yayin" is to be distinguished from "shekar"; the former is diluted with water ("mazug"); the latter is undiluted ("yayin ḥai"; Num. R. x. 8; comp. Sifre, Num. 23). In Talmudic usage "shekar" means "mead," or "beer," and according to R. Papa, it denotes drinking to satiety and intoxication (Suk. 49b).

In metaphorical usage, wine represents the essence of goodness. The Torah, Jerusalem, Israel, the Messiah, the righteous—all are compared to wine. The wicked are likened unto vinegar, and the good man who turns to wickedness is compared to sour wine. Eleazar b. Simeon was called "Vinegar, the son of Wine" (B. M. 83b). The wine which is kept for the righteous in the world to come has been preserved in the grape ever since the six days of creation (Ber. 34b).
WINE - JewishEncyclopedia.com
The Talmud speaks about the diluting of wine, etc.
Last I checked, it existed before this Jewish Enclyclopedia.
 
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Jason, and what of the verse I quoted for you? Deuteronomy 14:26 from your Bible - "...and spend the money for whatever you desire - oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the Lord your God and rejoice, you and your household."

Yes, they SPENT MONEY for wine and strong drink. It does not say they DRANK wine and strong drink.
There is a big difference in BUYING something vs. DOING something with that thing.

As I said before, they purchased and they stored alcoholic wine and strong drinks. They used these things for medical reasons in an undiluted state. But... but..... when they drank for recreational purposes or for the Lord's observances, or for weddings, they diluted it with water. Both the Bible alludes to the fact that they diluted their wine with water and historical documents points to such a truth, as well.

Knowing that there are 3 wines in the Bible and figuring out where they are talked about in the Bible is a really fulfilling and deep study.
 
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Der Alte

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The Talmud speaks about the diluting of wine, etc.
Last I checked, it existed before this Jewish Enclyclopedia
.
The Jewish Encyclopedia did not just make this stuff up. Which tractate, which folio? I have the Talmud on my computer so I can look it up. There were about 11 scriptures and 6 Talmud citations in my quote and at the link many more.
 
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Jewish Encyclopedia-Wine
There were different kinds of wine. "Yayin" was the ordinary matured, fermented wine, "tirosh" was a new wine, and "shekar" was an old, powerful wine ("strong drink").
@Jason0047 this is the point I was making. You are reading and thinking in English and you are considering "older" English dictionaries taken from a Christian bias. Not that a Christian bias is bad or wrong (all the time) but we are raised in a paradigm through which we see the world and Scripture. Since Christianity in most circles has demonized alcohol, then we must conclude that wine = juice because that fits our paradigm. The problem is, the modern (Western) Christian mindset today isn't always in harmony with the Hebraic Christian perspective of the first century. And this is often revealed in the LANGUAGE rather than in the traditions or decrees of man (not that they are all wrong, either). You are placing great weight on dictionaries and the English translations and I am saying (and @Der Alter has shown us) that the language DOES make a differentiation and that differentiation reveals that alcohol isn't the taboo thing you believe it to be. Now, if you don't want to drink it... don't, follow your OWN convictions. But don't try to talk everyone else out of theirs.
 
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Ken Rank

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Even then... you have to choose from a variety of definitions. How do you know?

Context is one. How the words in question are used in other verses is another. You are arguing from a modern English perspective with an emotional tie to it. If you look at the language as @Der Alter pointed out, and let the words mean what they mean and in the context that is presented without imposing your own personal bias on the text... you can't help but walk away realizing that Yeshua drank wine. Now, that doesn't mean you have to, it just means he did. :)
 
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The Jewish Encyclopedia did not just make this stuff up. Which tractate, which folio? I have the Talmud on my computer so I can look it up. There were about 11 scriptures and 6 Talmud citations in my quote and at the link many more.

I am more of a Bible guy, but if the Talmud is on your computer, you should be able to do a search and find it, no?

Here is one author who translated a page that talks about the diluting of wine with water (if you are interested).

A Beginner's Guide to the Steinsaltz Talmud
 
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@Jason0047 this is the point I was making. You are reading and thinking in English and you are considering "older" English dictionaries taken from a Christian bias. Not that a Christian bias is bad or wrong (all the time) but we are raised in a paradigm through which we see the world and Scripture. Since Christianity in most circles has demonized alcohol, then we must conclude that wine = juice because that fits our paradigm. The problem is, the modern (Western) Christian mindset today isn't always in harmony with the Hebraic Christian perspective of the first century. And this is often revealed in the LANGUAGE rather than in the traditions or decrees of man (not that they are all wrong, either). You are placing great weight on dictionaries and the English translations and I am saying (and @Der Alter has shown us) that the language DOES make a differentiation and that differentiation reveals that alcohol isn't the taboo thing you believe it to be. Now, if you don't want to drink it... don't, follow your OWN convictions. But don't try to talk everyone else out of theirs.

Yet, the Hebrew and Greek was translated into the English;
And God does not fail in the preservation of His Word.
Through out history, He preserved His Word for all to easily understand Him.

"And the LORD answered me, and said, Write the vision, and make it plain upon tables, that he may run that readeth it." (Habakkuk 2:2).

God does not change (Malachi 3:6).
 
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Context is one. How the words in question are used in other verses is another. You are arguing from a modern English perspective with an emotional tie to it. If you look at the language as @Der Alter pointed out, and let the words mean what they mean and in the context that is presented without imposing your own personal bias on the text... you can't help but walk away realizing that Yeshua drank wine. Now, that doesn't mean you have to, it just means he did.

No thanks. Me and Der Alter disagree on a lot. I also do not find his methods to be convincing, either. I am doing just fine studying God's Word with the help of the Lord (by asking by way of prayer), by looking at the context, looking at cross references, and by not violating God's moral laws that He has given to us (When we do read His Holy Word). This does not mean I do not look at what other believers have to say. Sometimes I read about 10 to 20 articles or even more on a wide variety of Christian topics so as to help deterimine the truth in God's Word.
 
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Ken Rank

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I am more of a Bible guy, but if the Talmud is on your computer, you should be able to do a search and find it, no?

Here is one author who translated a page that talks about the diluting of wine with water (if you are interested).

A Beginner's Guide to the Steinsaltz Talmud
She has written many books including one in favor of Kabbalah, which is Jewish mysticism and an aspect of Judaism that promotes reincarnation.
 
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Yet, the Hebrew and Greek was translated into the English;
And God does not fail in the preservation of His Word.
Through out history, He preserved His Word for all to easily understand Him.

"And the LORD answered me, and said, Write the vision, and make it plain upon tables, that he may run that readeth it." (Habakkuk 2:2).

God does not change (Malachi 3:6).
If you think every Hebrew word translated into English perfectly you don't understand languages like you think you do. Let's forget that the English versions followed the Jewish tradition and REMOVED God's name 7000 times... where do you get "testament" from when God makes a b'rit which is best represented by "covenant" but even that word doesn't fully encompass what a b'rit is. Anyway....
 
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