• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.

Featured The Bible and Older Dictionaries say that 'wine" is also grape juice.

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Bible Highlighter, Nov 7, 2017.

  1. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +6,118
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    IMPORTANT NOTE:
    Please take note that I am an
    Abstentionist and not a Prohibitionist.

    A Prohibitionist believes drinking of any kind for the NT saint is a sin. An Abstentionist believes that the bible does not absolutely prohibit the consumption of alcohol but for numerous reasons, Christians should abstain from using it. In this view, any amount of drinking that causes one to not be sober in any way directly contradicts those passages that tell us to be sober minded. Also, this view holds that drinking should be done in private and not publicly where your brother could see you and stumble. This view recommends that while it is lawful for you to drink, it is not always profitable so it is highly encouraged to abstain from it. Not out of some sense of legalism but out of love for God, yourself and your brother. Thus, it preaches the reality of the dangers of alcohol and how it can bite you like a serpent (despite it being lawful). Note: While I believe the NT saint has a liberty to drink soberly and responsibly, I do not think this applies to the OT saint. I believe OT saints were prohibited in drinking strong alcoholic beverages. I believe the OT saint could purchase and store strong intoxicating beverages, but when they consumed the wine, they diluted it with water whereby the alcohol content was low. As for Jesus: He made 100% freshly squeezed grape juice.​

    Brief Introduction:

    Some folks think the word "wine" is always in reference to an alcoholic beverage. I believe they think this way because of their culture they grew up in and it has nothing to do with what the Bible says and or older dictionaries say. After studying this topic in the Bible and historical documents (several times), I believe the Bible speaks of 3 different kinds of wines.

    #1. Fermented Wine (Strong in alcoholic content).
    #2. Fermented Wine Diluted by Water (Low in alcoholic content)
    #3. Unfermented Wine or Freshly Squeezed Grape Juice (A non intoxicating beverage).

    For the focus of this thread, I want to point out how wine is referred to as grape juice both in the Bible and in our older dictionaries.

    Wine is Grape Juice in the Bible:


    Wine is the blood of the grape:
    Genesis 49:11 says,
    "Binding his foal unto the vine, and his ass's colt unto the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes:"

    Deuteronomy 32:14 says,
    "Butter of kine, and milk of sheep, with fat of lambs, and rams of the breed of Bashan, and goats, with the fat of kidneys of wheat; and thou didst drink the pure blood of the grape."
    (Contrast with bad wine):

    Deuteronomy 32:33 that says,
    "Their wine is the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps."
    Deuteronomy 32:37-38 that says,
    37 "And he shall say, Where are their gods, their rock in whom they trusted,
    38 Which did eat the fat of their sacrifices, and drank the wine of their drink offerings? let them rise up and help you, and be your protection."​

    The vineyard is the place of red wine (i.e. red grapes or grape juice):
    Isaiah 27:2 says,
    "In that day sing ye unto her, A vineyard of red wine."
    Note: There is red wine in the vineyard is natural grape juice because the juice naturally exists inside the clusters of the grape. There is no such thing as a natural vineyard full of intoxicating wine. Grapes within a vineyard need to be crushed and interact with the natural yeast in order for it to ferment.

    Wine refers to the grape juice from the grapes of the field:
    2 Chronicles 31:5 says,
    "And as soon as the commandment came abroad, the children of Israel brought in abundance the firstfruits of corn, wine, and oil, and honey, and of all the increase of the field; and the tithe of all things brought they in abundantly."

    Jeremiah 40:10 says,
    "As for me, behold, I will dwell at Mizpah to serve the Chaldeans, which will come unto us: but ye, gather ye wine, and summer fruits, and oil, and put them in your vessels, and dwell in your cities that ye have taken."

    Jeremiah 40:12 says,
    "Even all the Jews returned out of all places whither they were driven, and came to the land of Judah, to Gedaliah, unto Mizpah, and gathered wine and summer fruits very much."

    Scripture describes “wine” that is in the grape:
    Isaiah 65:8 says,
    "Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all."

    Source used:
    What Kind of Wine Did Jesus Drink?

    Note:
    As for oil in crops:
    There is a thing called a Oil Palm:
    the oil palm

    Wine is Grape Juice in Older Dictionaries:

    Wine:
    n.
    1.
    The expressed juice of grapes, esp. when fermented; a beverage or liquor prepared from grapes by squeezing out their juice, and (usually) allowing it to ferment.

    Source:
    Wine | Definition of Wine by Webster's Online Dictionary
    (Please click on the link)

    1828 Webster’s Dictionary defines the word “must” as “new wine-wine pressed from the grape, but not fermented.” Note that the unfermented grape juice is here explicitly called “new wine.”

    The 1759 Nathan Bailey’s New Universal English Dictionary of Words and of Arts and Sciences offers the following definition for “wine”: “Natural wine is such as it comes from the grape, without any mixture or sophistication. Adulterated wine is that wherein some drug is added to give it strength, fineness, flavor, briskness, or some other qualification.”

    The eytomology of the word "wine":
    "Old Irish fin, Gaelic fion. Essentially the same word as vine.

    Source:
    wine | Origin and meaning of wine by Online Etymology Dictionary

    Sources Used:
    MYTHS about WINE and ALCOHOL in the BIBLE (Part 1) - Bible Christian
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2017
    • Like Like x 1
    • Prayers Prayers x 1
    • List
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

    +25,245
    Anglican
    Married
    It really doesn't make any difference how many kinds of fluids can be described by the word. What matters in this discussion is not what the word could mean but what did happen in Christ's own life.

    He clearly did make alcoholic wine at Cana, as the verses show; and the kind of wine that was used (fermented but cut with water) among the Hebrews at that point in time was alcoholic. Other people at other times and in other places might drink something else that has been called wine, but it's not relevant to this discussion.
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
    • Winner Winner x 4
    • List
  3. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +6,118
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    It is not irrelevant that Scripture and older dictionaries speak of wine as being grape juice because most people do not really care to know the difference. They see the word "wine" and that means an alcoholic beverage to them. This has led to lots of misunderstanding of what has happened at the Wedding at Cana.

    Speaking of the Wedding at Cana:
    So Jesus contributed to their drunkenness then?
    Do you realize that drunkenness is a sin in the Bible?
     
  4. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +6,118
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Some people say that getting drunk one time is not drunkenness. Others have said the "...well drunk..." (in John 2:10) does not mean that they drank a lot of the wine. So far that does not really work for me or seem believable in any way. It makes it seem like it is an attempt to change what the Bible says so as to defend drinking. Also, they think that the wine is the "good wine" based on the alcoholic content, when in reality, wines are based on taste even by wine tasters today.
     
  5. RC1970

    RC1970 post tenebras lux

    +1,533
    United States
    Protestant
    Single
    God is responsible for the creation of everything. Including the things that people use in a sinful manner. Does that mean that God is responsible for their sinning?
     
  6. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +6,118
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    The miracle done by Jesus at the Wedding at Cana manifested His glory.

    "This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him." (John 2:11).

    I find it hard to believe that Jesus creating a miracle that manifested His glory would encourage drunkenness and did in fact lead to that result (according to the Pro-Alcohol is Awesome position). There was no condemnation mentioned. In fact, as a result of his miracle, his disciples believed on him. If His miracle directly resulted in people sinning, that would not be a miracle from God. Jesus says you will know false prophets by their fruit. To say that Jesus made a beverage that help to further mens' drunkenness (even by their own free will) is wrong on many levels. God does not tempt any man to sin (James 1:13).

    For example: God created two trees in the Garden, but God warned them not to eat of the wrong tree. God did not create only an evil tree and place man in front of it and did not say anything. If Jesus did not want them to sin, He would have said something. Think, my friend.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2018
  7. I'm_Sorry

    I'm_Sorry Taking a break from CF Supporter

    +1,146
    Australia
    Christian
    Widowed
    Hi Jason, regarding Grape juice.

    What other fruit juices did the Hebrews have access to?

    Why I ask is how does grape juice differ (make glad the heart) to other fruit juices or eating fruit in quantity for that matter?

    Psalms 104:15

    “And wine that maketh glad the heart of man, and oil to make his face to shine, and bread which strengtheneth man's heart.”

    I can eat a couple bunches of grapes, no need to juice it to get the same effect.

    Same with other sweet fruits.

    We say coffee is the best to "get going" in the morning, why?

    I don't like alcohol because I use to abuse it.

    And I like life without it, however I cant reprove someone for drinking it in moderation as my issue with it in my past was my addiction to it. I don't know how to have anything without abusing it, so I choose to abstain, especially after the horrible withdrawals I underwent when I quit.

    Every now and again I revisit it and have a drink or two and by doing so I remember and realise its terrible for me.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • List
  8. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +6,118
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    I believe the Israelites bought and stored wine in a strong alcoholic state, but when they drank it for recreational purposes or as a part of observances, it was diluted with water. So it was a beverage that was low in alcoholic content (and yet still could make man's heart glad).

    Wine mixed (diluted) with Water Verses:

    Revelation 14:10 says,
    “The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb”
    (Contrast this with Psalms 75:8)

    1 Timothy 5:23 says,
    "Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities."

    Proverbs 9:2 (NIV) says,
    "She has prepared her meat and mixed her wine; she has also set her table."

    Proverbs 23:31 - Do not look at wine when it is red.

    John 19:34 - Blood and water mingled together from Christ's side; And Scripture essentially says the wine in the Lord's supper is representative of Jesus's blood (See Matthew 26:27-29).

    Isaiah 1:22 CJB
    “Your silver is no longer pure, your wine is watered down."​

    Pure silver, which would be too soft to be durable, is mixed with 5-20% copper in an alloy known as sterling silver.

    How silver is made - material, making, history, used, processing, industry

    If one were to take note: One has to mix copper in silver in order for it to be durable so as to be used. Just as one must use water in their mixture of wine to use it.

    So the idea here is that the silver (mixed with copper) they use has become so dross (or watered down it is then cheap. Just as the wine (mixed with water) is diluted even more whereby it is cheap wine (for the times).

    Wine could be carried in an undiluted state within leather skin like bottles and then later mixed with water for use. Timothy was told to use a little wine in his water because of the infirmities in his stomach. Paul was telling him to use Biblical wine so as to resolve a medical issue.

    Extra Biblical Sources on how wine was mixed with water:

    2 Maccabees 15:39, Talmud, and Justin Martyr, etc.​
     
  9. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member Supporter

    +5,459
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    You read great "English" and place a lot of stock in dictionaries. Where your whole doctrine falls apart is in the underlying languages and the context of certain verses. While I don't pretend to think that when we see the English word "wine" that is always means fermented... if you think it never does or that messiah himself didn't drink any... you don't know the language or the culture of the day. Sorry Jason, but you're beating a dead horse here and are coming off as dogmatic and agenda driven.
     
    • Winner Winner x 2
    • Like Like x 1
    • List
  10. gordonhooker

    gordonhooker Franciscan tssf Supporter

    +1,040
    Anglican
    Married
    There is nothing sinful about alcohol it is like anything else if used in moderation (actually it is good for the digestion), what is sinful is the misuse of it.
     
  11. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +6,118
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    The only agenda I have is preaching the truth of God's Word.
    The dictionaries of old speak against what people are trying to cover up today.
    Jesus did not drink intoxicating wine. There are so many problems with the idea of Jesus drinking an intoxicating beverage I do not even know where to begin. But I have provided 6 points in Scripture to show you in another thread.

    The Bible and older dictionaries are clear. Wine can also be referred to as grape juice. But today's culture is so in love with alcohol that they will not allow people to think otherwise. To speak out against the truths of alcohol is to be a villain and or some fanatic. But I believe Jesus and His Word. He came to bring us life and not death.
     
  12. I'm_Sorry

    I'm_Sorry Taking a break from CF Supporter

    +1,146
    Australia
    Christian
    Widowed
    Is it the first miracle that you believe that "wine" is to be translated "grape juice"?

    Same with the last supper?
     
  13. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +6,118
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    What about 151 or other hard alcoholic beverages?
    What if a person does not know these are that bad and they think it is like wine, etc?
    Therein lies the problem.

    Yes, I believe in some cases, certain alcoholic beverages may not be sinful if they drank a glass or two with a meal and so as not to make their brother to stumble. But if they were to truly learn the truth about alcohol (like myself), they would discover that it is technically a poison and a drug that destroys their insides. A recent study by the UK has shown that alcohol drinking done in moderation actually decreases the size of the brain. Then there is addiction... which can then lead to drunkenness and or drunk driving and death to themselves and others. So the fruits of alcohol is not entirely innocent. It is one of the most deadliest drugs here in America because it is lawful to ingest and even encouraged by others for us to drink it.
     
  14. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +6,118
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Yes, because John 2:10 says the wedding guests were.... "....well drunk...". So that means if they drank alcoholic beverages, they would have been intoxicated and Jesus making even more intoxicating drink would have added to their drunkenness. Some folks have said that they have free will and God is not responsible for what man does. But if the Lord slipped in a drink that was sinful without them knowing it, then God would be guilty for helping them to further their sin of drunkenness. The Bible is clear that drunkenness is a sin (Galatians 5:19-21). So it would have been impossible for Jesus to make them a drink that could get them even more drunk.

    Why do you think they called it the fruit of the vine?
    Fruit from the vine is fresh fruit juice and not fermented juice.
     
  15. gordonhooker

    gordonhooker Franciscan tssf Supporter

    +1,040
    Anglican
    Married
    I am sorry I am not sure what your point is. I simply said alcohol in moderation is not sinful which it is not.
     
  16. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

    +33,483
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Jason getting drunk is wrong. We all get that. I think the Jews of Jesus's time knew drunkenness was sin and most avoided it.
     
  17. I'm_Sorry

    I'm_Sorry Taking a break from CF Supporter

    +1,146
    Australia
    Christian
    Widowed
    Ok thanks, I'm just trying to understand the position you believe.

    I stay clear of this side of ministry because I have issues with it.

    To me its better not to drink.

    That being said I still smoke (abuse) tobacco and I just had a 5 week break from cannabis (also abused)

    I drink coffee in excess too.

    So I'm not one to minister in this area, concerning moderation or abstinence but I can see your point and its one that I'll need to understand better.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2017
  18. Neal of Zebulun

    Neal of Zebulun Active Member

    326
    +129
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    There's at least two Hebrew words that are often translated into the English word "wine." One of them means the kind that gets you drunk [יין], and the other means the non-alcoholic kind [תירוש]. I'll show you the first verses in which each appears. First the alcoholic kind:

    Genesis 9:
    20 And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:

    21 And he drank of the wine [יין], and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.​

    And then the non-alcoholic:

    Genesis 27:
    28 Therefore God give thee of the dew of heaven, and the fatness of the earth, and plenty of corn and wine [תירוש]:​

    Now here's the thing, the alcoholic wine [יין], is not always a bad thing. Here's an example, and I'll put plenty of context for you:

    Isaiah 55:
    1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine [יין] and milk without money and without price.

    2 Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness.

    3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.​

    Also, check this out! Here's a verse where seemingly both are bad!

    Hosea 4:
    11 Whoredom and wine [יין] and new wine [תירוש] take away the heart.​

    So please, stop this non-sense about drinking wine being a sin. That's something a pharisee would do, adding leaven to the Law of Yahweh!

    Matthew 16:
    11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?

    12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.​

    Seek Yahweh, and praise Yahushua Christ, amen!
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  19. I'm_Sorry

    I'm_Sorry Taking a break from CF Supporter

    +1,146
    Australia
    Christian
    Widowed
    I also believe that people wont know they have a problem with alcohol until they quit.

    If the side effects are bad, its an indication of abuse.

    You'll need a doctor to supervise quitting as its dangerous for abusers.
     
  20. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +6,118
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    My point is that while drinking alcohol may be sinful in some cases, I believe in other cases it can be sinful. For example: If a brother drinks and does not care if they make their brother to stumble, it would be sinful. If a Christian drinks against their conscience condemning them that alcohol is bad (like myself), it would be a sin. For I know too much about alcohol and how it can destroy you. I see it for what it is. But I believe my fellow brothers and sisters can be saved in their ignorance of it. Not in them being drunk or anything. But in treating it with respect and in service to the Lord and in remaining sober.

    I also believe that drinking 151 or harder alcholic beverages can be sinful for a person because it would be very difficult to determine what their level of soberness would be with these kinds of things. How would one know? Do they test it out? Six shots and they probably will be puking.
     
Loading...