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The Bible and Older Dictionaries say that 'wine" is also grape juice.

prodromos

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Okay, that's great then. They knew He made an intoxicating beverage that contributed to their sin. Sure, that's a great testimony. :rolleyes:
No one was sinning by celebrating the bride and groom's marriage. This is your false projection.
But you are missing the point. The wedding guests did not know that Jesus was going to contribute to their drunkenness (if what you say is true).
You claim the wedding guests were drunk yet the Scriptures say nothing of the sort.
It seems to me that "Don't let it control you" went out the door when Jesus contributed to their drunkenness in secret at the Wedding party (if Jesus did indeed make intoxicating wine).
More adding to Scripture. There were many witnesses to Jesus' miracle and there is no record of drunkeness
But if what you say is true, there should be NO verses about how strong drink is bad.
It has been well established that the wine was drunk watered down, so any biblical references to strong drink have no bearing on the wedding celebration.
 
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SBC

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Yes, I understand that Christ turning water into wine is a miracle, but you are assuming that the juice was totally unlike the hint of grapes. Sure, if Jesus were to have created intoxicating wine (Which He didn't do), He would not have left out the elements that normally make up wine that people are familar with. If this was not the case, then they would not be drinking wine but something else.

It is not about wine from grapes, but rather wine from a different source.
Jesus created wine from the VINE, who is He Himself.

Not the same thing. Adam was not a unique miracle of God whereby people were young before him. Adam was the first human being to be created directly by God. So Adam was unique. God did not skip any steps. That is how He designed the first man. For no man was every born before Adam. This is not the same as the miracle of Jesus of when He turned water into wine. The reason why Adam more than likely did not have a belly button was because he was created without any birth. God was not doing something out of the norm here unlike the miracle at the wedding of Cana.

Every body is created by the hand of God.


You are assuming that grape juice is nasty and that they drank strong intoxicating drink. Neither one is the case. The Jews diluted their wine and it was low in alcoholic content.

You are assuming it is about alcoholic content. It's isn't. It is about the source.
Jesus is the Vine.

God Bless,
SBC
 
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SBC

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Not at all. The WHY is in my various points.

You are focusing on alcohol content.

At the wedding feast, they ran out of wine drink pressed from grapes.

Nearing the end of the wedding feast, Mary requested Jesus to resolve with lack of drink problem.

Jesus called for the DIRTY EARTHEN VESSELS, that had been used for the guests to wash (purify) themselves...

For those DIRTY VESSELS, to be filled with water.

By the POWER of the TRUE VINE, were those DIRTY EARTHEN VESSELS, filled with "SOMETHING" NEW.

The first guest to be offered the NEW WINE, was the governor of the feast... And he said;

John 2
[9] When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew, the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,
[10] And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

It is not about alcoholic content, sourced from the fruit of its branches, and being happy by its' fruit.

It is about;

Jesus comes among the people, as the Good Branch.
Jesus is Good.
Jesus is then revealed later as the True Vine.
The NEW branches are the people.
The people begin in Dirty Earthen Vessels.
The True Vine can make that which is Dirty, Clean.
What is restored inside, is joy to the inside.
What is restored to joy inside, bears a new fruit.
The NEW Fruit, is good, to consume.
When others drink of the NEW FRUIT, they also are filled with the same Joy of the Lord.

Abraham was filled, and was glad.

John 8
[56] Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Jesus asked His disciples if they were willing to drink from Jesus' SAME cup.

Matt 20
[22] But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.

Jesus IS the True Vine ~ and the Source for planting a NEW Seed, that will produce NEW Branches, that will produce, a NEW FRUIT, for others to DRINK and be FILLED with A NEW Joy.

And the catch of the governor's remark is TRUE. The people becoming the BRIDE of Christ, FIRST receive the GOOD WINE of the TRUE VINE.

The OLD WINE, is the OLD LAW. The NEW WINE, is the NEW COVENANT.

It is about putting AWAY the OLD, and consuming the NEW, which IS Christ.

God Bless,
SBC
 
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SBC

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Deuteronomy 32:37-38, it says there is a wine that is like the poison of dragons (verse 33), and a wine that was of false gods from drink offerings.

What makes anything consumed Spiritually POISON, IS;
IF it is CONSUMED, as an OFFERING to a FALSE god.

It is by the same premise Jesus was angry in the Temple Court, where IMPURE ANIMALS were being sold and bought for the PURPOSE of offering SPIRITUAL POISON, (an impure animal's blood) unto a PURE Spiritual and Holy God.

God Bless,
SBC
 
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FireDragon76

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Drunkenness is the least of the problems that alcohol causes. Much worse is the addictive patterns of behavior than can go along with alcoholism and heavy drinking, the emotional immaturity and self-delusion. And alcohol is toxic to many organs in the body. There's no ethical reason to encourage anyone to drink.

Having said that, I don't think alcohol consumption is something that a person can authoritatively state is sinful in all cases, based on the Bible. But the Bible is not the end of Christian ethical discourse.

We use wine in the Sacrament due to standing on tradition but otherwise you won't find alcohol served at our parish. Lutherans were historically divided in their attitudes towards drinking in the US. Germans had more social drinking of beer, whereas Scandinavians tended to view the drinking of hard liquor and vodka as a pernicious problem in their culture.
 
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What makes anything consumed Spiritually POISON, IS;
IF it is CONSUMED, as an OFFERING to a FALSE god.

It is by the same premise Jesus was angry in the Temple Court, where IMPURE ANIMALS were being sold and bought for the PURPOSE of offering SPIRITUAL POISON, (an impure animal's blood) unto a PURE Spiritual and Holy God.

God Bless,
SBC

Yes, it s speaking spiritually in Deuteronomy 32:33-37, but it is also speaking of the destructive nature of the wine itself, as well.

"Their wine is the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps." (Deuteronomy 32:33).

31 "Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.
32 At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder."
(Proverbs 23:31-32).​

Yet, it says the Israelites drank the pure blood of the grape (See Deuteronomy 32:14).

Pure blood of the grape is grape juice.
Intoxicating wine is not pure.
It is fermented and impure drink.
Granted, we have a liberty in Christ, but this is one of those things where you liberty in Christ can easily lead you down the wrong path because alcohol is highly addictive and destructive.
 
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SBC

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Drunkenness is the least of the problems that alcohol causes. Much worse is the addictive patterns of behavior than can go along with alcoholism and heavy drinking, the emotional immaturity and self-delusion. And alcohol is toxic to many organs in the body. There's no ethical reason to encourage anyone to drink.

Having said that, I don't think alcohol consumption is something that a person can authoritatively state is sinful in all cases, based on the Bible. But the Bible is not the end of Christian ethical discourse.

We use wine in the Sacrament due to standing on tradition but otherwise you won't find alcohol served at our parish. Lutherans were historically divided in their attitudes towards drinking in the US. Germans had more social drinking of beer, whereas Scandinavians tended to view the drinking of hard liquor and vodka as a pernicious problem in their culture.

Anything done in excess begins to "consume" the person himself.

There is a huge difference between a man being drunk occasionally, over eating occasionally, playing video games occasionally, dancing, playing music, playing games, etc. or having such things "consume" the thoughts and actions of a person every waking moment. And OVER consuming of anything of this earth, ingested or visual is toxic to the body.

Using ANY age of wine in a ceremony to the remembrance of Jesus, IS not a remembrance OF the wine ~ it is a remembrance of WHAT WAS a man that was OLD ~ became NEW by the Power of the Lord, and that NEWNESS, of the man is FOREVER, and forever remembered in a ceremony of remembering it was BY JESUS, the NEWNESS of a man is accomplished.

But the Bible is not the end of Christian ethical discourse.

Not sure what you mean.

A) The Bible is simply the Written Word. The Word of God itself is within the hearts of born again men, growing in men, being revealed more knowledge and wisdom, by and of the Word itself.

B)The other option is to lean on the ethics the World pronounces.

DO you mean, A or B, or something else?


God Bless,
SBC
 
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I don't believe I have heard a more blasphemous twisting of God's Word.

Let's take this one step at a time. Please. Can you read for me the three previous parables leading up to the parable about the leaven being put in three measures of meal? I say this because one can see that they are similar to each other.

Also, again, "yeast" is a type of sin in the Bible.
You cannot change this meaning. It is a fact of Scripture.
One has to change this meaning in the parable in order for it not to be that way.
 
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Anything done in excess begins to "consume" the person himself.

There is a huge difference between a man being drunk occasionally, over eating occasionally, playing video games occasionally, dancing, playing music, playing games, etc. or having such things "consume" the thoughts and actions of a person every waking moment. And OVER consuming of anything of this earth, ingested or visual is toxic to the body.

Using ANY age of wine in a ceremony to the remembrance of Jesus, IS not a remembrance OF the wine ~ it is a remembrance of WHAT WAS a man that was OLD ~ became NEW by the Power of the Lord, and that NEWNESS, of the man is FOREVER, and forever remembered in a ceremony of remembering it was BY JESUS, the NEWNESS of a man is accomplished.



Not sure what you mean.

A) The Bible is simply the Written Word. The Word of God itself is within the hearts of born again men, growing in men, being revealed more knowledge and wisdom, by and of the Word itself.

B)The other option is to lean on the ethics the World pronounces.

DO you mean, A or B, or something else?


God Bless,
SBC

Alcohol is not exactly like food or other innocent drinks.
It is highly addictive because it is a drug and or a mild poison (that actually shrinks your brain on a small level even with moderate consumption). It is also more harmful than other things if consumed too much. Millions are spent in the recovery of those who abuse this drug. So the fruits of alcohol are not exactly good.
 
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You are focusing on alcohol content.

At the wedding feast, they ran out of wine drink pressed from grapes.

Nearing the end of the wedding feast, Mary requested Jesus to resolve with lack of drink problem.

Jesus called for the DIRTY EARTHEN VESSELS, that had been used for the guests to wash (purify) themselves...

For those DIRTY VESSELS, to be filled with water.

By the POWER of the TRUE VINE, were those DIRTY EARTHEN VESSELS, filled with "SOMETHING" NEW.

The first guest to be offered the NEW WINE, was the governor of the feast... And he said;

John 2
[9] When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew, the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,
[10] And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

It is not about alcoholic content, sourced from the fruit of its branches, and being happy by its' fruit.

It is about;

Jesus comes among the people, as the Good Branch.
Jesus is Good.
Jesus is then revealed later as the True Vine.
The NEW branches are the people.
The people begin in Dirty Earthen Vessels.
The True Vine can make that which is Dirty, Clean.
What is restored inside, is joy to the inside.
What is restored to joy inside, bears a new fruit.
The NEW Fruit, is good, to consume.
When others drink of the NEW FRUIT, they also are filled with the same Joy of the Lord.

Abraham was filled, and was glad.

John 8
[56] Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Jesus asked His disciples if they were willing to drink from Jesus' SAME cup.

Matt 20
[22] But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.

Jesus IS the True Vine ~ and the Source for planting a NEW Seed, that will produce NEW Branches, that will produce, a NEW FRUIT, for others to DRINK and be FILLED with A NEW Joy.

And the catch of the governor's remark is TRUE. The people becoming the BRIDE of Christ, FIRST receive the GOOD WINE of the TRUE VINE.

The OLD WINE, is the OLD LAW. The NEW WINE, is the NEW COVENANT.

It is about putting AWAY the OLD, and consuming the NEW, which IS Christ.

God Bless,
SBC

Yes, I am aware that the jugs that were filled with wine were the ceremonial washing containers. I said this before to others recently. While this does fit, we have to be careful that this is just what men say and it is not what God's Word says. We also cannot assume they left the washing containers dirty, either.

But you are missing the point here with this analogy. If Christ's wine was to be the NEW wine as you suggest, it could no longer be the same old type of wine that the Israelites drank.

Even in the analogy of the wine put in leather wine skins or bottles is comparing two different types of wine. One is fermented and the other is not fermented. So the old and the new wine had to be different in some way. For if one were to put new wine into old bottles, they would burst because the old skins had already been stretched.

Note: The Israelites bought and stored fermented wine but when they drank it, they diluted it.
 
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FireDragon76

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There is a huge difference between a man being drunk occasionally, over eating occasionally, playing video games occasionally, dancing, playing music, playing games, etc. or having such things "consume" the thoughts and actions of a person every waking moment. And OVER consuming of anything of this earth, ingested or visual is toxic to the body.

Moderate drinking is not harmful but the problem is that experience shows us that encouraging people to drink is bad public policy and could even be considered unethical. If you don't drink, it's not good advice to start drinking for any reason, as there are other ways to live healthy without alcohol.

Using ANY age of wine in a ceremony to the remembrance of Jesus, IS not a remembrance OF the wine ~ it is a remembrance of WHAT WAS a man that was OLD

We do not view the Lord's Supper as a mere memorial, and we consider the use of wine normative. We use de-alcoholed wine for those who have a problem consuming alcohol.

A) The Bible is simply the Written Word. The Word of God itself is within the hearts of born again men, growing in men, being revealed more knowledge and wisdom, by and of the Word itself.

Of course but the Bible does not directly cover every possible situation. It's necessary to use our God-given reason to figure out what is ethical in our own vocations.
 
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SBC

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Yes, it s speaking spiritually in Deuteronomy 32:33-37, but it is also speaking of the destructive nature of the wine itself, as well.

"Their wine is the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps." (Deuteronomy 32:33).

31 "Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.
32 At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder."
(Proverbs 23:31-32).​

Yet, it says the Israelites drank the pure blood of the grape (See Deuteronomy 32:14).

Pure blood of the grape is grape juice.
Intoxicating wine is not pure.
It is fermented and impure drink.

OT men, believers and unbelievers drank wine, aged and fleshly pressed.

Yes, what a man becomes when he begins drinking aged wine, is he becomes happy, content, and then sleepy, or some times ill feeling, angry, discontent, then sleepy.

The setting or what a man becomes, after consuming aged wine, has much to do with what is already SET within the MAN. Meaning the man being filled already with the JOY of Gods Word or not. A man already filled with Gods word, is not becoming filled with happiness BY the wine. Nor does he sleep Because of the wine.

It's a parallel - a foreshadowing of Christ.
To be filled with HIS JOY, by HIS WORD.
To put away your body to SLEEP, in temporary sleep, with the new visible revelation of the crucified body of Jesus.

Your viewpoint is secular, wine fomented, wine mixed with water minimizing the alcohol,
consuming is bad, being drunk is bad, sinful.

Noah was drunk - in his own private tent. How was that a sin? And what was his punishment if he committed sin?

Sin is NOT believing in God. Umpteen things a man does, who does not believe in God,
IS SIN. NOT because the "THINGS" are sinful, but because men who are not in faithfulness TO God, are the ones doing those "things".

Noah was drunk - in his own private tent. How was that a sin? It wasn't.
We are already informed;

Gen 6
  1. [8] But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
  2. [9] These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.


And what was his punishment if he committed sin? None.

A man already in Gods Grace, is in Standing with God.
They are not punished. They have work to do.
And anytime such a man is not doing work to glorify God, they lose rewards.
While Noah was drunk, he was not doing work to glorify God, thus he lost some rewards.

God Bless,
SBC
 
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OT men, believers and unbelievers drank wine, aged and fleshly pressed.

Yes, what a man becomes when he begins drinking aged wine, is he becomes happy, content, and then sleepy, or some times ill feeling, angry, discontent, then sleepy.

The setting or what a man becomes, after consuming aged wine, has much to do with what is already SET within the MAN. Meaning the man being filled already with the JOY of Gods Word or not. A man already filled with Gods word, is not becoming filled with happiness BY the wine. Nor does he sleep Because of the wine.

It's a parallel - a foreshadowing of Christ.
To be filled with HIS JOY, by HIS WORD.
To put away your body to SLEEP, in temporary sleep, with the new visible revelation of the crucified body of Jesus.

Your viewpoint is secular, wine fomented, wine mixed with water minimizing the alcohol,
consuming is bad, being drunk is bad, sinful.

Noah was drunk - in his own private tent. How was that a sin? And what was his punishment if he committed sin?

Sin is NOT believing in God. Umpteen things a man does, who does not believe in God,
IS SIN. NOT because the "THINGS" are sinful, but because men who are not in faithfulness TO God, are the ones doing those "things".

Noah was drunk - in his own private tent. How was that a sin? It wasn't.
We are already informed;

Gen 6
  1. [8] But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
  2. [9] These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.


And what was his punishment if he committed sin? None.

A man already in Gods Grace, is in Standing with God.
They are not punished. They have work to do.
And anytime such a man is not doing work to glorify God, they lose rewards.
While Noah was drunk, he was not doing work to glorify God, thus he lost some rewards.

God Bless,
SBC

The Bible is clear that drunkenness is a sin.

Is getting drunk a sin?

As for Noah:

Genesis 6:1-2 is talking about his life BEFORE he got drunk. Even Noah’s own sin led to problems of his son Ham taking advantage of the situation.

As for secular thinking:

Actually, most people in the world and even in the churches support the use of alcoholic beverages.
 
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BNR32FAN

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IMPORTANT NOTE:
Please take note that I am an
Abstentionist and not a Prohibitionist.

A Prohibitionist believes drinking of any kind for the NT saint is a sin. An Abstentionist believes that the bible does not absolutely prohibit the consumption of alcohol but for numerous reasons, Christians should abstain from using it. In this view, any amount of drinking that causes one to not be sober in any way directly contradicts those passages that tell us to be sober minded. Also, this view holds that drinking should be done in private and not publicly where your brother could see you and stumble. This view recommends that while it is lawful for you to drink, it is not always profitable so it is highly encouraged to abstain from it. Not out of some sense of legalism but out of love for God, yourself and your brother. Thus, it preaches the reality of the dangers of alcohol and how it can bite you like a serpent (despite it being lawful). Note: While I believe the NT saint has a liberty to drink soberly and responsibly, I do not think this applies to the OT saint. I believe OT saints were prohibited in drinking strong alcoholic beverages. I believe the OT saint could purchase and store strong intoxicating beverages, but when they consumed the wine, they diluted it with water whereby the alcohol content was low. As for Jesus: He made 100% freshly squeezed grape juice.​

Brief Introduction:

Some folks think the word "wine" is always in reference to an alcoholic beverage. I believe they think this way because of their culture they grew up in and it has nothing to do with what the Bible says and or older dictionaries say. After studying this topic in the Bible and historical documents (several times), I believe the Bible speaks of 3 different kinds of wines.

#1. Fermented Wine (Strong in alcoholic content).
#2. Fermented Wine Diluted by Water (Low in alcoholic content)
#3. Unfermented Wine or Freshly Squeezed Grape Juice (A non intoxicating beverage).

For the focus of this thread, I want to point out how wine is referred to as grape juice both in the Bible and in our older dictionaries.

Wine is Grape Juice in the Bible:


Wine is the blood of the grape:
Genesis 49:11 says,
"Binding his foal unto the vine, and his ass's colt unto the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes:"

Deuteronomy 32:14 says,
"Butter of kine, and milk of sheep, with fat of lambs, and rams of the breed of Bashan, and goats, with the fat of kidneys of wheat; and thou didst drink the pure blood of the grape."
(Contrast with bad wine):

Deuteronomy 32:33 that says,
"Their wine is the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps."
Deuteronomy 32:37-38 that says,
37 "And he shall say, Where are their gods, their rock in whom they trusted,
38 Which did eat the fat of their sacrifices, and drank the wine of their drink offerings? let them rise up and help you, and be your protection."​

The vineyard is the place of red wine (i.e. red grapes or grape juice):
Isaiah 27:2 says,
"In that day sing ye unto her, A vineyard of red wine."
Note: There is red wine in the vineyard is natural grape juice because the juice naturally exists inside the clusters of the grape. There is no such thing as a natural vineyard full of intoxicating wine. Grapes within a vineyard need to be crushed and interact with the natural yeast in order for it to ferment.

Wine refers to the grape juice from the grapes of the field:
2 Chronicles 31:5 says,
"And as soon as the commandment came abroad, the children of Israel brought in abundance the firstfruits of corn, wine, and oil, and honey, and of all the increase of the field; and the tithe of all things brought they in abundantly."

Jeremiah 40:10 says,
"As for me, behold, I will dwell at Mizpah to serve the Chaldeans, which will come unto us: but ye, gather ye wine, and summer fruits, and oil, and put them in your vessels, and dwell in your cities that ye have taken."

Jeremiah 40:12 says,
"Even all the Jews returned out of all places whither they were driven, and came to the land of Judah, to Gedaliah, unto Mizpah, and gathered wine and summer fruits very much."

Scripture describes “wine” that is in the grape:
Isaiah 65:8 says,
"Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all."

Source used:
What Kind of Wine Did Jesus Drink?

Note:
As for oil in crops:
There is a thing called a Oil Palm:
the oil palm

Wine is Grape Juice in Older Dictionaries:

Wine:
n.
1.
The expressed juice of grapes, esp. when fermented; a beverage or liquor prepared from grapes by squeezing out their juice, and (usually) allowing it to ferment.

Source:
Wine | Definition of Wine by Webster's Online Dictionary
(Please click on the link)

1828 Webster’s Dictionary defines the word “must” as “new wine-wine pressed from the grape, but not fermented.” Note that the unfermented grape juice is here explicitly called “new wine.”

The 1759 Nathan Bailey’s New Universal English Dictionary of Words and of Arts and Sciences offers the following definition for “wine”: “Natural wine is such as it comes from the grape, without any mixture or sophistication. Adulterated wine is that wherein some drug is added to give it strength, fineness, flavor, briskness, or some other qualification.”

The eytomology of the word "wine":
"Old Irish fin, Gaelic fion. Essentially the same word as vine.

Source:
wine | Origin and meaning of wine by Online Etymology Dictionary

Sources Used:
MYTHS about WINE and ALCOHOL in the BIBLE (Part 1) - Bible Christian

I’ve often thought about this myself and I believe they drank fermented wine because it lasted longer and didn’t spoil. I think one big question is the definition of drunkenness. It takes a lot of wine to get drunk and a person can drink a few glasses of wine and not feel drunk at all. So just because Jesus made fermented wine at the wedding in Cana doesn’t mean He is contributing to their drunkenness.
 
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SBC

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Yes, I am aware that the jugs that were filled with wine were the ceremonial washing containers. I said this before to others recently. While this does fit, we have to be careful that this is just what men say and it is not what God's Word says. We also cannot assume they left the washing containers dirty, either.

It's a foreshadow - ofcourse the containers were dirty, just like a mans natural body.
Water may temporarily cleanse the earthen vessel, but it is still dirty, 'till it be washed of Jesus' BLOOD, "till it be FILLED with Gods Word.

But you are missing the point here with this analogy. If Christ's wine was to be the NEW wine as you suggest, it could no longer be the same old type of wine that the Israelites drank.

You are impressing the secular components of WINE.

It's not about the SECULAR WINE. It about cleansing the vessel with Jesus, His Blood, and filling the vessel with Jesus, His Truth, His Word, by the power of God, who is Christ.

Jesus was NOT ready to reveal His POWER, as Christ.
Yet Mary asked Jesus, while also revealing her FAITH in him

John 2
[4] Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.
[5] His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.

Even in the analogy of the wine put in leather wine skins or bottles is comparing two different types of wine. One is fermented and the other is not fermented. So the old and the new wine had to be different in some way. For if one were to put new wine into old bottles, they would burst because the old skins had already been stretched.

The old is different from the new.
The old is a Plant VINE, the new is a Spiritual VINE.
The old is consumed then exits the body.
The new is consumed then remains in the body.

Note: The Israelites bought and stored fermented wine but when they drank it, they diluted it.

That may have been a custom, but then not every Israelite would I presume followed all customs at all times.

God Bless,
SBC
 
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ToBeLoved

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They did not have strong drink and wine because God was against them having it. We cannot infer that the strong drink was on the same level of bread. Yes, they purchased wine and strong drink (Deuteronomy 14:26); But they diluted it with water when they drank it for recreational purposes or for holy days. Deuteronomy 32:14 says they drank of the pure blood of the grape (grape juice), but in Deuteronomy 32:33 and Deuteronomy 32:37-38, it says there is a wine that is like the poison of dragons (verse 33), and a wine that was of false gods from drink offerings.
If your argument is Jesus would never have produced wine, maybe some New Testament verses. Easy to refer to a Covenant that was ending to make your point about the ender of said Covenant.
 
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The Bible is clear that drunkenness is a sin.

The Bible is clear;
~ not all Scriptures apply to ALL MEN.
~ Noah walked with God.
~ Men who walk with God, are with God in Spirit.
~ Men who walk in Spirit WITH God, can not sin.

As for Noah:

Genesis 6:1-2 is talking about his life BEFORE he got drunk. Even Noah’s own sin led to problems of his son Ham taking advantage of the situation.

Yes, Noah's life BEFORE he got drunk. Yes, BEFORE he got drunk, He walked with God. and AFTER he became sober he still walked with God.

Noah did not sin. Ham's own actions were cursed for shaming his father.



As for secular thinking:

Actually, most people in the world and even in the churches support the use of alcoholic beverages.

All alive men live in a secular world. It is the natural habitat God provided for a natural man to exist.

However out of the whole of mankind, a FEW of us, who were born in corruption have become FORGIVEN of our "NOT" being "WITH" God, to being reconciled "TO" being "WITH" God forever, By His Seed, and by HIS Power can never AGAIN SIN AGAINST God.

1 John 3:9

God Bless,
SBC
 
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SBC

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Alcohol is not exactly like food or other innocent drinks.
It is highly addictive because it is a drug and or a mild poison (that actually shrinks your brain on a small level even with moderate consumption). It is also more harmful than other things if consumed too much. Millions are spent in the recovery of those who abuse this drug. So the fruits of alcohol are not exactly good.

Many natural things can be addictive -

Moderation ?
Only a little but often? lying in the sun? drinking wine?
A lot but only occasionally? lying in the sun? drinking wine?

Which of these make you (BORN of the Seed of God) STOP Believing in God, that you therefore are again AGAINST GOD? Neither. Nothing can.

That is my point.

God Bless,
SBC
 
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Edison Trent

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Yes, it s speaking spiritually in Deuteronomy 32:33-37, but it is also speaking of the destructive nature of the wine itself, as well.

"Their wine is the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps." (Deuteronomy 32:33).

31 "Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.
32 At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder."
(Proverbs 23:31-32).​

Yet, it says the Israelites drank the pure blood of the grape (See Deuteronomy 32:14).

Pure blood of the grape is grape juice.
Intoxicating wine is not pure.
It is fermented and impure drink.
Granted, we have a liberty in Christ, but this is one of those things where you liberty in Christ can easily lead you down the wrong path because alcohol is highly addictive and destructive.

Hmm,,,

Proverbs 23:30 it is when the wine is Mixed not to drink the red bubbly sparkly it is not pure red wine

Deut 32:33 their wine is referring to mixed/white wine.

red wine came first of the grapes the red grape vine

white wine was a mutation long ago producing white grapes.
 
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Moderate drinking is not harmful but the problem is that experience shows us that encouraging people to drink is bad public policy and could even be considered unethical. If you don't drink, it's not good advice to start drinking for any reason, as there are other ways to live healthy without alcohol.



We do not view the Lord's Supper as a mere memorial, and we consider the use of wine normative. We use de-alcoholed wine for those who have a problem consuming alcohol.



Of course but the Bible does not directly cover every possible situation. It's necessary to use our God-given reason to figure out what is ethical in our own vocations.


Thanks for your reply and clarification.

God Bless,
SBC
 
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