The being of light of NDE fame, G-d or Satan?

[DennisTate]

Off topic/ non-sequitor/ improper mis-direct.

No.... it is perfectly on topic......

I am asking you how you cannot see the connection between those testimonies with II Corinthians 12:2-4........

souls are at stake.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

No.... it is perfectly on topic......

I am asking you how you cannot see the connection between those testimonies with II Corinthians 12:2-4........

souls are at stake.

The nde's are not testimonies of Jesus, they are not "overcomers testimony",
and
so far they do not pass the tests of Scripture,
not even the test of even being good seed producing good results.

They mostly so far here and elsewhere do give the impression of emotionalism and deception.

 

[DennisTate]

The nde's are not testimonies of Jesus, they are not "overcomers testimony",
and
so far they do not pass the tests of Scripture,
not even the test of even being good seed producing good results.

They mostly so far here and elsewhere do give the impression of emotionalism and deception.

A significant percentage of sincere Christians, Messianic Jews and Orthodox Jews would
respectfully disagree with your conclusion so far.

Notice the poll above.... only eight percent of people who respond feel that the being of light of NDE fame is Satan appearing as an angel of light.

 

[DennisTate]

The nde's are not testimonies of Jesus, they are not "overcomers testimony",
and
so far they do not pass the tests of Scripture,
not even the test of even being good seed producing good results.

They mostly so far here and elsewhere do give the impression of emotionalism and deception.

In the case of former Atheist Howard Storm his certainly is an over comers testimony!

I suspect you had some overly fearful teachers who have taught you that Messiah Yeshua - Jesus will judge you too harshly if you say or write one wrong word?!

Reverend Howard Storm's Near-Death Experience

Reverend Howard Storm's Near-Death Experience www.howardstorm.com was a Professor of Art at Northern Kentucky University, was not a very pleasant man by his own admission. He was an avowed atheist and was hostile to every form of religion and those who practiced it. He often would use rage to control everyone around him and he didn’t find joy in anything. Anything that wasn’t seen, touched or felt, he had no faith in. He knew with certainty that the material world was the full extent of everything that was. He considered all belief systems associated with religion to be fantasies for people to deceive themselves with. Beyond what science said, there was nothing else. But then on June 1, 1985, at the age of 38, Howard Storm’s had a near-death experience due to a perforation of the stomach and his life was since forever changed. His near-death experience is one of the most profound, if not the most profound, afterlife experience I have ever documented. His life was so immensely changed after his near-death experience, he resigned as a professor and devoted his time attending the United Theological Seminary to become a United Church of Christ minister. Today, Howard Storm is presently happily married to his wife Marcia and is Pastor of the Covington United Church of Christ in Covington, Ohio. During his past time he has maintained his passion for painting but now, unlike in his past, he paints with a God state of mind which raises his paintings to a whole other level. On this website Pastor Storm shares a unique look at his paintings and the effect Jesus Christ has on his daily life and on his paintings. The following is the account of Pastor Howard Storm's near-death experience reprinted by permission.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

In the case of former Atheist Howard Storm his certainly is an over comers testimony!

Maybe.

 

[DennisTate]

Maybe.

I was taught an overly strict approach to a number of subjects and
it did take me about five years to research NDE accounts enough to
conclude that if the NDE has a Life Review..... then it likely is with
Messiah Yeshua - Jesus in His glorified form.... keeping His promise to
judge us.

John 5:22

For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgmentunto the Son:

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

if the NDE has a Life Review..... then it likely is with
Messiah Yeshua

This dosn't qualify as a Scriptural test for any true nor final determination.

 

[Robert Richborough]

“For the living know that they will die; but the dead know nothing … For there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going” Ecclesiastes 9:5

When your dead you sleep, no NDE's as far as I can tell, but I cant see why God might not try to send you a comforting message before your dead ? but we don't go straight to heaven when we die, pretty sure not till the day of judgment.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

“For the living know that they will die; but the dead know nothing … For there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going” Ecclesiastes 9:5

Amein.
In complete harmony and agreement with all SCRIPTURE,
and not at all in agreement with many social stuff.

 

[DennisTate]

This dosn't qualify as a Scriptural test for any true nor final determination.

Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible, Baruch Chapter 6

"[6] For my angel is with you: And I myself will demand an account of your souls."

Hebrews 9:27

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:"

 

[DennisTate]

“For the living know that they will die; but the dead know nothing … For there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going” Ecclesiastes 9:5

When your dead you sleep, no NDE's as far as I can tell, but I cant see why God might not try to send you a comforting message before your dead ? but we don't go straight to heaven when we die, pretty sure not till the day of judgment.

This is what I also believed until I began to read
near death experience accounts and then another group of
scriptures that i was always trying to explain away..... began to
make far more sense in the light of NDE testimonies than the
dogmatic "soul sleep" doctrine had done.



Dr. George Ritchie's Near-Death Experience

c. His Experience of the "Receiving Station"

Jesus then takes Ritchie to another realm and is shown a kind of "receiving station" where spirits would arrive in a deep hypnotic sleep because of a particular religious belief they held to be true. Here there were "angels" trying to arouse them and help them realize, "God is truly a God of the living and that they did not have to lie around sleeping until Gabriel or someone came along blowing on a horn." These are the spirits of people who believe they must sleep in their grave until the second coming of Christ (i.e., soul sleep.)

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible, Baruch Chapter 6

"[6] For my angel is with you: And I myself will demand an account of your souls."

Hebrews 9:27

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:"

? Getting stranger now instead of more in line with Scripture.

The prince of darkness appears as an angel of light,
and
appears to quote Scripture also - actually knows it better than anyone here does..(sort of - it is a weird sort of way)....

In other words, when the SHINING ONE appeard to Eve,
and later (yesterday) to others on earth,
he does not come out and say "Hi there, I'm the devil opposed to Jesus and I AM YOUR ENEMY TO the DEATH, forever"
no
He does come and say "I am an angel of the one you serve, and here is something to help you along your path
to know right from wrong
and to be like god "

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

in the light of NDE testimonies

Enough said ?

i.e. not in the light of SCRIPTURE - but contrary to it.

 

[BobRyan]

It seems to me that we are in a situation somewhat like the time of the Prophet Elijah.

1Kings 18:21 "And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word."


I began to study these experiences a great deal back in 1990. They immediately made me realize that the "soul sleep" doctrine that I had been taught was almost certainly in error. I got kicked out of two churches due to disagreements mainly over that doctrine. But as a Christian there was no way that I could deny the possibility of people having an "out of the body experience!"

2 Corinthians 12:2 "I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.
And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter."

You have linked two teachings together and declared them to be in contradiction to each other.

In 1Thess 4 Paul affirms the soul sleep doctrine "Those who have fallen asleep in Jesus" -- "the Dead in Christ". IN the same way as Christ speaks of Lazarus in John 11 "Lazarus sleeps - I go that I may wake him".

in 2 Cor 12:2 Paul himself claims to have had an out of body experience.

You have inserted this into an "either-OR" model where "Either Paul is right in 2 Cor 12 or he is right in agreeing with Christ in 1 Thess 4". When in fact "BOTH-AND" is the more logical solution.

Someone who is not actually dead - can have an out of body experience - as we see in 1Cor 12. But someone who has fully died - such as Lazarus 3 days in the tomb - cannot.

You use the term NDE - so then "not dead"

 

[BobRyan]

As already noted here

the dormant state of 1Thess 4 -

13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

John 11 "our friend Lazarus SLEEPS I go that I may WAKE him"


But this does not preclude/negate the 2 Cor 12 out of body experience of Paul.

In Matt 22 Christ presents an irrefutable argument for the future resurrection when debating with the Sadducees which only works in the context of soul sleep.

 

[BobRyan]

That is the way that I viewed the topic back in 1988. Once I studied near death experience accounts for a while........ then it all became clear.

ok - an then when you "studied the Bible for a while"??

When Satan comes to Eve in Genesis 3 "you shall not surely die" - he argues the "experience" over the Word of God - saying that Eve can see the "experience" and "hear the testimony of the talking serpent".

He argues that surely seeing this experience, and hearing this first-hand testimony should be sufficient to bend-edit-discard what God had told her. ... Turns out that was a bad idea. Sola scriptura -- standing firm on the Word of God -- would have been the better choice.

Satan is the "master magician" - but God is the "Master of Life and Death - the way the Truth and the Life"

 

[BobRyan]

Back in 1988, I would have thought that the verses that I took to imply "soul sleep" would make a visionary dream such as Pastor Rick Joyner had back in 1995 impossible.

Now I know better.

Has God called some of us to be poor, sick, no arms or legs and persecuted???

"you know better" than what? Know better than to insert an "either-Or" model into comparison of 1Thess 4 with 2Cor 12?? In that case I would agree... Both-AND is the better model.

 

[BobRyan]

But...... apparently that "dormant" state can include at least some thought and awareness going on......

Rev 6:10

And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Rev 6 is an apocalyptic image/symbol with all the saints in heaven "under the altar" crying out for vengance instead of having perfect love for their neighbor and like God "Not willing for any to perish" 2 Peter 3.

9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer,

It is symbolism. Imagry. It shows like the blood of Abel crying out from the ground - that injustice demands that justice be done -- that delay be shortened.

 

[DennisTate]

"you know better" than what? Know better than to insert an "either-Or" model into comparison of 1Thess 4 with 2Cor 12?? In that case I would agree... Both-AND is the better model.

The weight of scripture, taken in its totality indicates saints and prophets, being conscious, in
heaven with God after death.

Notice Revelation 18.

Rev 18:2

And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

....

Rev 18:20

Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her."

It sure looks like the holy apostles and prophets who had been martyred
are in heaven just like near death experiencers report. These seem to be
deceased apostles and prophets because the fall of Babylon avenged them.


Rev 19:14

And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

 

[DennisTate]

“For the living know that they will die; but the dead know nothing … For there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going” Ecclesiastes 9:5

When your dead you sleep, no NDE's as far as I can tell, but I cant see why God might not try to send you a comforting message before your dead ? but we don't go straight to heaven when we die, pretty sure not till the day of judgment.

From 1972 - 1990 I concentrated my understanding of the state of the dead
on the verses like this but the fact is...... that King Solomon was in a rather depressed
state of mind when he wrote Ecclesiastes and he may not have been attempting to state
that there was zero consciousness in heaven....... but instead due to his business of building
his palaces and the Temple of Solomon and in turning Jerusalem into a natural wonder of the world
he may have been depressed at the idea of passing on....... and having no control over what his
successor would do after him.

He knew that he could not organize the next steps once he died.

On the other hand the thief on the cross beside Messiah Yeshua - Jesus would definitely be
fully dead that day..... and where would he be then?

Luke 23:43

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.