The being of light of NDE fame, G-d or Satan?

Is the being of light, G-d or Satan?

  • He is Messiah Yeshua - Jesus in his glorified form.

    Votes: 2 13.3%
  • He is Satan appearing as an angel of light.

    Votes: 2 13.3%
  • He is HaShem/ the G-d of Abraham/ YHWH.

    Votes: 3 20.0%
  • If there is a LIFE REVIEW... then it is G-d.

    Votes: 1 6.7%
  • I really am not sure but I am researching this.

    Votes: 3 20.0%
  • Who we meet depends on if we are sincerely religious?

    Votes: 2 13.3%
  • Near death experiences are a halucination caused by brain chemical reactions.

    Votes: 5 33.3%
  • Maybe it is connected to memories of lights in delivery room from birth.

    Votes: 1 6.7%
  • The being of light is the Elohim who formed Adam and Eve.

    Votes: 2 13.3%

  • Total voters
    15

yeshuaslavejeff

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The weight of scripture, taken in its totality indicates saints and prophets, being conscious, in
heaven with God after death.
This is sadly in error.
For
a full example of the weight of SCRIPTURE taken in its totality proving this wrong, (with all of the verses and chapters clearly included and referenced),

see the pdf booklet by e.w.bullinger on the rich man and lazarus. (free online).

It is long and complete , from all SCRIPTURE, showing the fallacy of
the quoted post.

Beginning excerpt (total 20 pages or chapters online):
"The Rich Man and Lazarus: An
Intermediate State?
Luke 16:19-31
E.W. BULLINGER, D.D.
In dealing with this Scripture, and the subject of the so-called intermediate state, it is important that we should confine ourselves to the Word of God, and not go to Tradition.

Yet, when nine out of ten believe what they have learned from Tradition, we have a thankless task, so far as pleasing man is concerned. We might give our own ideas as the the employment's, etc., of the \u201cdeparted\u201d, and man would deal leniently with us. But let us only put God's Revelation against man's imagination, and then we shall be made to feel his wrath, and experience his opposition."

from (temporarily available free):
The Rich Man and Lazarus by E.W. BULLINGER
 
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DennisTate

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This is sadly in error.
For
a full example of the weight of SCRIPTURE taken in its totality proving this wrong, (with all of the verses and chapters clearly included and referenced),

see the pdf booklet by e.w.bullinger on the rich man and lazarus. (free online).

It is long and complete , from all SCRIPTURE, showing the fallacy of
the quoted post.

Beginning excerpt (total 20 pages or chapters online):
"The Rich Man and Lazarus: An
Intermediate State?
Luke 16:19-31
E.W. BULLINGER, D.D.
In dealing with this Scripture, and the subject of the so-called intermediate state, it is important that we should confine ourselves to the Word of God, and not go to Tradition.

Yet, when nine out of ten believe what they have learned from Tradition, we have a thankless task, so far as pleasing man is concerned. We might give our own ideas as the the employment's, etc., of the \u201cdeparted\u201d, and man would deal leniently with us. But let us only put God's Revelation against man's imagination, and then we shall be made to feel his wrath, and experience his opposition."

from (temporarily available free):
The Rich Man and Lazarus by E.W. BULLINGER


Mr. Herbert W. Armstrong and his son Garner Ted quoted E. W. Bullinger on the Lazarus and the Rich Man parable.

I have heard all of that before..... but
there are so many scriptures that even indicate that it isn't only
saints and prophets and followers of Messiah Yeshua who have some
consciousness after death.


Eze 32:21

The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.

Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword:

Whose graves are set in the sides of the pit, and her company is round about her grave: all of them slain, fallen by the sword, which caused terror in the land of the living.

There is Elam and all her multitude round about her grave, all of them slain, fallen by the sword, which are gone down uncircumcised into the nether parts of the earth, which caused their terror in the land of the living; yet have they borne their shame with them that go down to the pit.

They have set her a bed in the midst of the slain with all her multitude: her graves are round about him: all of them uncircumcised, slain by the sword: though their terror was caused in the land of the living, yet have they borne their shame with them that go down to the pit: he is put in the midst of them that be slain.

There is Meshech, Tubal, and all her multitude: her graves areround about him: all of them uncircumcised, slain by the sword, though they caused their terror in the land of the living.

And they shall not lie with the mighty that are fallen of the uncircumcised, which are gone down to hell with their weapons of war: and they have laid their swords under their heads, but their iniquities shall be upon their bones, though they were the terror of the mighty in the land of the living.

Yea, thou shalt be broken in the midst of the uncircumcised, and shalt lie with them that are slain with the sword.

There is Edom, her kings, and all her princes, which with their might are laid by them that were slain by the sword: they shall lie with the uncircumcised, and with them that go down to the pit.

There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.

Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD."

Near death experiencers report being ashamed for any unkind word or deed that they did toward anybody else..... or toward an animal.
 
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BobRyan

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The weight of scripture, taken in its totality indicates saints and prophets, being conscious, in
heaven with God after death.

Notice Revelation 18.

Rev 18:2

And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

....

Rev 18:20

Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her."

It sure looks like the holy apostles and prophets who had been martyred
are in heaven just like near death experiencers report. These seem to be
deceased apostles and prophets because the fall of Babylon avenged them.


Rev 19:14

And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

In Rev all the souls in heaven and under the earth praise God and in Genesis Abel's blood cries out from the ground - in Hebrews 12 his blood speaks.

In Matt 22 Christ said that God could not have said to Moses "I am the God of Abraham" - were it not for the future resurrection.
 
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DennisTate

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In Rev all the souls in heaven and under the earth praise God and in Genesis Abel's blood cries out from the ground - in Hebrews 12 his blood speaks.

In Matt 22 Christ said that God could not have said to Moses "I am the God of Abraham" - were it not for the future resurrection.


That is exactly how I also used to argue
that point from 1975 - 1990.


Luke 20:35

But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:

Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him."

Christian near death experiencer Dr. Richard Eby was given an explanation about that verse...."neither marry, nor are given in marriage."


4. A Detailed Description of Dr. Eby's Spirit Body
.......
"Lord Jesus, why am I now a neuter? I was a man."

Jesus replied:

"Yes, Dick, you were always a man, a child of God who returned our love by telling others of the good news about me. Remember? You read in my book the very first order I gave to Adam and Eve? 'Be fruitful and multiply!' I told them to replenish the Earth, not heaven. Again I told the Sadducees (who did not believe in a resurrection) that they 'knew not the scriptures' when they speculated about wives in heaven. I explained that after the resurrection all would be like angels who do not marry nor raise families. Everything in heaven is created or re-created into perfection! It is all in my book. None other is truth!"
(Dr. Richard Eby, near-death
.com/science/articles/richard-eby-and-secomd-coming-of-christ.html#a04
 
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DennisTate

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Rev 6 is an apocalyptic image/symbol with all the saints in heaven "under the altar" crying out for vengance instead of having perfect love for their neighbor and like God "Not willing for any to perish" 2 Peter 3.

9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer,

It is symbolism. Imagry. It shows like the blood of Abel crying out from the ground - that injustice demands that justice be done -- that delay be shortened.


How about this verse.....


Luke 24:39

"Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."

My impression is that all Christians will be given a similar body to what Messiah Yeshua - Jesus had after the resurrection...... when I Corinthians 15 is fulfilled.......
but for now..... a spirit does not have flesh and bones.


1Co 15:22

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming."

Dr. Richard Eby's Near-Death Experience and the Second Coming of Christ

He paused as though the joy of that thought had overwhelmed him for the moment.

"My Father assures me that the time is yet a little while, but very little. Soon he will call those already in paradise to surround me as we descend from this third heaven to the first heaven around the Earth. The souls of all my saints will be instantly clothed in their new resurrection bodies, as will the living saints on Earth who rise to us in the glory cloud! At the sounding trumpet they all receive new bodies and rise to meet us in the air. We return as my body to my throne room with the Father. Now do you understand why I called this place a temporary abiding place? Do you grasp what it will mean to be one with me and the Father in your incorruptible bodies? My book states that I assumed mankind's sin so you 'might be made the righteousness of God' in me!"
 
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BobRyan

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How about this verse.....


Luke 24:39

"Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."

My impression is that all Christians will be given a similar body to what Messiah Yeshua - Jesus had after the resurrection...... when I Corinthians 15 is fulfilled.......

Agreed. As 2 Cor 5:1-8 points out - we have a decaying body now and in the resurrection we get the 2nd body - the one made in heaven ... eternal ... all of them physical.

We are not mere whispy spirits as you probably would agree.

1Co 15:22

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming."

Dr. Richard Eby's Near-Death Experience and the Second Coming of Christ

Also true - at the Rev 19 2nd coming of Christ those who are Christ's are made alive and given a body.
 
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DennisTate

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Agreed. As 2 Cor 5:1-8 points out - we have a decaying body now and in the resurrection we get the 2nd body - the one made in heaven ... eternal ... all of them physical.

We are not mere whispy spirits as you probably would agree.



Also true - at the Rev 19 2nd coming of Christ those who are Christ's are made alive and given a body.

I watched a video today where it was stated that only three people in heaven.....
have physical bodies..... Messiah Yeshua - Jesus..... Elijah.... and the Patriarch Enoch...... I totally agree with this idea.

If I remember correctly it may have been in this video... but I am not sure... but this is certainly interesting.....
 
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CrystalDragon

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Who people see in NDE's seems to depend on what religion they grew up with. Hindus don't see Jesus for instance, they see some of the Hindu gods. If we went by all NDE's as showing what the afterlife is like, then that means that the Hindu gods are just as real as Jesus/God the Father/Mary/Joseph/Moses, etc.
 
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DennisTate

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Who people see in NDE's seems to depend on what religion they grew up with. Hindus don't see Jesus for instance, they see some of the Hindu gods. If we went by all NDE's as showing what the afterlife is like, then that means that the Hindu gods are just as real as Jesus/God the Father/Mary/Joseph/Moses, etc.

I believe that there is a difference.....
for example in 2015 a then fifteen year old Israeli
had a near death experience.... and he talked with and met
Rabbi's whose teachings he had learned from.....

but the full fledged Life Review.....
that is supposed to be something that we go through with Messiah Yeshua - Jesus......
but... Yeshua does not have to tell people his name from when he was human........

He is King of all kings... and he can say to people whatever he likes.....
near death experiencer, former Atheist Ms. Beverly Brodsky had a near death experience.....
met who she felt was the Moshiach / Messiah.....
but He did not tell her H-s name.......
there was no need to.......

Messiah Yeshua - Jesus is fulfilling the Isaiah 42 - 46 prophecies in an ultimate sense......
and like ancient King Cyrus who conquered 127 kingdoms... .and gave freedom of religion to
all of them......
so also Messiah Yeshua - Jesus is free to meet an Atheist like Howard Storm.....
and show them unconditional love.......
 
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BobRyan

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I watched a video today where it was stated that only three people in heaven.....
have physical bodies..... Messiah Yeshua - Jesus..... Elijah.... and the Patriarch Enoch...... I totally agree with this idea.

It is likely that they - and Moses and anyone else that is walking around out there all have bodies.
 
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DennisTate

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The 1Thess 4 statement on death - simply says that the soul is in a dormant state at death.

But 2 Cor 12 Paul is not saying "I died one time and went to heaven" -- Paul is not describing death at all in 2Cor 12.

Visions and dreams can take the form of an out-of-body experience the way Paul describes it in 2Cor 12.

At this time in my life I wonder if calling
the time from death to the resurrection "sleep" could be
because resurrected Christians...... .who will have a glorified body like
Messiah Yeshua - Jesus had after his resurrection... will be so much more active than
they are while in heaven.... that it is like they are doing nothing at this time.....
in comparison to what they will be able to do after they are given their glorified bodies????

I am not certain if that is correct....
but it could be one part of all this.


I wonder what Mr. George Chuang will say about this questions?

Is this issue a job for the final Elijah to deal with?

 
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BobRyan

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At this time in my life I wonder if calling
the time from death to the resurrection "sleep" could be
because resurrected Christians...... .who will have a glorified body like
Messiah Yeshua - Jesus had after his resurrection... will be so much more active than
they are while in heaven.... that it is like they are doing nothing at this time.....
in comparison to what they will be able to do after they are given their glorified bodies????

I am not certain if that is correct....
but it could be one part of all this.

1 Thess 4 says that the "comfort" for the Christian that has lost a loved one to death - is to view them as "those who have fallen asleep in Jesus" and then to look at the future resurrection as their source of hope.

Matt 22 Jesus argues for the "proof" of the resurrection to Sadducees who did not believe in the resurrection at all - Jesus says that future resurrection is proven by these two facts.
1. God is not the God of the dead
2. God claimed to be the God of Abraham - when He was speaking to Moses.

Christ's proof was irrefutable to the Sadducees and even the Pharisess admit that His "proof" had put them to silence - they saw no way around it.
 
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DennisTate

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1 Thess 4 says that the "comfort" for the Christian that has lost a loved one to death - is to view them as "those who have fallen asleep in Jesus" and then to look at the future resurrection as their source of hope.

Matt 22 Jesus argues for the "proof" of the resurrection to Sadducees who did not believe in the resurrection at all - Jesus says that future resurrection is proven by these two facts.
1. God is not the God of the dead
2. God claimed to be the God of Abraham - when He was speaking to Moses.

Christ's proof was irrefutable to the Sadducees and even the Pharisess admit that His "proof" had put them to silence - they saw no way around it.

During sleep we do dream.........
The Book of Revalation contains a story about the souls of Christian martyrs calling out for vengeance on their murderers. So it does seem that some level of thought does occur after death.
 
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DennisTate

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I know that this sounds almost too simple.... but
near death experiencers tend to write and speak with a level of
wisdom and love that could only come from extreme light/ truth/ love.......

.... or from Satan himself attempting to appear as an angel of light........
 
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FireDragon76

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NDE's are not good evidence of any particular religious perspective, since people of many different religions seem to find confirmation in these experiences. That suggests that they are at least, to some extent, culturally conditioned.
 
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SkyWriting

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Generally they concluded that about 10% of people who undergo cardiac arrest and have dilated pupils and cessation of observable brain activity but survive, will report a Near Death Experience afterward. The problem is that there is no way to see if there is really no brain activity as we cannot hook up a dying unstable person to an MRI or EEG, so we cannot say that a Near death experience is not related to brain activity.

High gravity experiences suggest it is blood flow related.
The Trigger of Extreme Gravity: Dr. James Winnery's NDE Research
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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High gravity experiences suggest it is blood flow related.
The Trigger of Extreme Gravity: Dr. James Winnery's NDE Research
Unfortunately, this is quite weak evidence. On Evidence-Based Medicine classes, this would at best be class 5, the worst one. This neither constitutes a medical trial or study, nor does it show causation. If it was 'blood flow related' we would expect NDEs in syncopal attacks, thromboembolic events, etc. While we might see it, it is far from normal symptomology in such cases.
 
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SkyWriting

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Unfortunately, this is quite weak evidence. On Evidence-Based Medicine classes, this would at best be class 5, the worst one. This neither constitutes a medical trial or study, nor does it show causation. If it was 'blood flow related' we would expect NDEs in syncopal attacks,

"One of the most common causes of near-death experiences is fainting,"

thromboembolic events, etc. While we might see it, it is far from normal symptomology in such cases.
Near-death experiences: the experience of the self as real and not ...
Because the publication of several prospective studies on near-death experience (NDE) in survivors of cardiac arrest have shown strikingly similar results and conclusions, the phenomenon of the NDE can no longer be scientifically ignored.



You are so correct. NDE's are not normal symptoms. We get that.
But they never happen to people with normal blood flow to the brain.
That's a big clue.




-Temporality of Features in Near-Death Experience Narratives
Correction in:
Front Hum Neurosci. 2017; 11: 435.

-Fantasy Proneness Correlates With the Intensity of Near-Death Experience

-Three cases of near death experience: Is it physiology, physics or philosophy?

-Heaven can wait - or down to earth in real time: Near-death experience revisited

-Infrequent near death experiences in severe brain injury survivors - A quantitative and qualitative study

-“Reality” of near-death-experience memories: evidence from a psychodynamic and electrophysiological integrated study
 
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