LDS The 'beginning' of God in Mormonism

[NYCGuy]

Wrong. LDS doctrine, or LDS official belief if you prefer, is that God has always existed.

Spencer W. Kimball included this as part of his 1972 talk about the priesthood. "It is an eternal principle, that has existed with God from all eternity." There are great many sources of the official belief that clearly state that God has always existed. You are falsely accusing LDS participants of this forum of inserting their personal beliefs into this matter.

This is taken from LDS.org which contains the LDS official beliefs. The article discusses Section 93 of the Doctrine and Covenants. “Inteligence or the Light of truth was not created or made neither indeed can be.”6 In other words, the spirits of mortal men and women were as eternal as God Himself."


However, it does continue to amuse me that people think they know our doctrines better than we do.

Is it LDS doctrine that God has always existed as God? Has God always existed as the Godhead? Has the Father always been the Father?

 

[Jane_Doe]

Is it LDS doctrine that God has always existed as God? Has God always existed as the Godhead? Has the Father always been the Father?

Does it matter? If your or anyone else's faith predicated on the any of these possibilities?

 

[NYCGuy]

Does it matter? If your or anyone else's faith predicated on the any of these possibilities?

If you aren't interested in the discussion please do not respond to my post. Thank you.

 

[Jane_Doe]

If you aren't interested in the discussion please do not respond to my post. Thank you.

Who said I wasn't interested? I asked a very valid question that should be addressed.

 

[NYCGuy]

Who said I wasn't interested? I asked a very valid question that should be addressed.

Your question did not answer my question, which you quoted, and is a deflection from my question. This is a discussion forum. Whether or not something "matters" is irrelevant to actually discussing the topic at hand (which we see, if we go back to the OP, is about the "beginning" of God in Mormonism). Again, if you are not interested in the discussion, please do not respond to my posts. Thank you.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Your question did not answer my question, which you quoted, and is a deflection from my question. This is a discussion forum. Whether or not something "matters" is irrelevant to actually discussing the topic at hand (which we see, if we go back to the OP, is about the "beginning" of God in Mormonism). Again, if you are not interested in the discussion, please do not respond to my posts. Thank you.

The answers to your questions are not known. Nor does it matter what the answers are.

 

[NYCGuy]

The answers to your questions are not known. Nor does it matter what the answers are.

Thank you for your thoughts.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Thank you for your thoughts.

You appear to be disinterested...

 

[BigDaddy4]

The answers to your questions are not known. Nor does it matter what the answers are.

Is that your opinion or official doctrine?

 

[NYCGuy]

You appear to be disinterested...

Appearances can be deceiving...

 

[tickingclocker]

Wrong. LDS doctrine, or LDS official belief if you prefer, is that God has always existed.

Spencer W. Kimball included this as part of his 1972 talk about the priesthood. "It is an eternal principle, that has existed with God from all eternity." There are great many sources of the official belief that clearly state that God has always existed. You are falsely accusing LDS participants of this forum of inserting their personal beliefs into this matter.

This is taken from LDS.org which contains the LDS official beliefs. The article discusses Section 93 of the Doctrine and Covenants. “Inteligence or the Light of truth was not created or made neither indeed can be.”6 In other words, the spirits of mortal men and women were as eternal as God Himself."


However, it does continue to amuse me that people think they know our doctrines better than we do.

Wrong. LDS doctrine, or LDS official belief if you prefer, is that God has always existed.
---LDS doctrine, or LDS official belief if you prefer, is that "GODS (plural)" have always existed. For a Mormon to suggest that there is a singular perfect God in mormonism is blatantly erroneous. Mustn't forget mormonism touts a plethora of One True GODS exist.... wherever. On the other hand, the Christian God declares Himself alone as the One True God, and never once implies "just for us" either. He declares Himself the One True God for everywhere there is a where. I believe Him. You do not. Umm.... Okay.

Spencer W. Kimball included this as part of his 1972 talk about the priesthood. "It is an eternal principle, that has existed with God from all eternity." There are great many sources of the official belief that clearly state that God has always existed. You are falsely accusing LDS participants of this forum of inserting their personal beliefs into this matter.
---I initially stated to FB that this may be HIS personal belief. Nothing wrong with that. It wasn't any type of "accusation" either. Of course individual Mormons are allowed to believe whatever they wish in their church, regardless of any official LDS standard beliefs. (In fact, Mormons don't even have to believe IN God in order to become members. I see no "accusation" below in my initial quote:

"No, "you" [FB] may believe that "a" supreme being has always existed, but that's not the LDS official belief. 'LDS mormonism believes supreme BEINGS (plural) have always existed..."

That was my correction of his statement, in bold underline.

This is taken from LDS.org which contains the LDS official beliefs. The article discusses Section 93 of the Docttrine and Covenants. “Inteligence or the Light of truth was not created or made neither indeed can be.”6 In other words, the spirits of mortal men and women were as eternal as God Himself."
--Thank you for sharing what the LDS believes. Just because its been stated doesn't make the position correct, as I'm sure you must realize.

No offense intended, but "intelligence" is spelled with two l's, not one. I wonder* if you actually copied and pasted that from the official website? I've found LDS websites exceptionally well maintained when it comes to spelling. We all make mistakes, however. I fully understand.





*This is not in any way an accusation.

 

[Ran77]

Is it LDS doctrine that God has always existed as God? Has God always existed as the Godhead? Has the Father always been the Father?

It is LDS doctrine that God has always existed as God. I'm not sure about God existing as the Godhead, because I'm not sure what you mean by that. It is LDS doctrine that the Father has always been the Father. In the quote I provided, Spencer W. Kimball stated, "It is an eternal principle, that has existed with God from all eternity." There are other references which make the same statement in regard to eternal principles within the church.

My personal thought on the topic is that mortal man does not have the mental ability to truly understand this principle. Little has been revealed to the prophets which would clarify the concepts of eternity, but the official sources of LDS doctrine (including the Bible) indicate that God has always been God and the Father has always been the Father.

 

[Ran77]

Wrong. LDS doctrine, or LDS official belief if you prefer, is that God has always existed.

You are demonstrating a high level of ignorance on LDS doctrine. I posted a quote from LDS.org, which is a source of official LDS belief. That quote clearly states that God, along with the priesthood, has existed eternally. As in, God and the priesthood has always existed. Other quotes, from other talks and even the Topical Guide, state the same thing. Any attempt by you to twist that belief is just foolishness.

(In fact, Mormons don't even have to believe IN God in order to become members.

Wrong. CFR. Post a quote from an official source which makes this ridiculous statement.

Thank you for sharing what the LDS believes. Just because its been stated doesn't make the position correct, as I'm sure you must realize.

Queue the Twilight Zone music. Taking quotes from an official source for the church's doctrine is exactly how you arrive at what the LDS officially believe. That's what you are going on about--what the LDS officially believe.

No offense intended, but "intelligence" is spelled with two l's, not one. I wonder* if you actually copied and pasted that from the official website? I've found LDS websites exceptionally well maintained when it comes to spelling. We all make mistakes, however. I fully understand.

Yep, Joseph Smith was not a great speller. If I ever run into him I'll make sure to let him know that his grammar did not meet with your approval.

 

[NYCGuy]

It is LDS doctrine that God has always existed as God.

So if a leader or church manual taught that God progressed to or achieved Godhood, or that God has not always been God, would that leader or church manual be teaching incorrect or false doctrine?

I'm not sure about God existing as the Godhead, because I'm not sure what you mean by that.

For Trinitarians, we believe that God has eternally existed as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The Persons of God exist in an eternal relationship with each other. So, I'm wondering, has God, or the Godhead, always existed as such?

It is LDS doctrine that the Father has always been the Father. In the quote I provided, Spencer W. Kimball stated, "It is an eternal principle, that has existed with God from all eternity." There are other references which make the same statement in regard to eternal principles within the church.

My personal thought on the topic is that mortal man does not have the mental ability to truly understand this principle. Little has been revealed to the prophets which would clarify the concepts of eternity, but the official sources of LDS doctrine (including the Bible) indicate that God has always been God and the Father has always been the Father.

Thanks.

 

[tickingclocker]

First of all, I see no need for me to further accentuate the convoluted web of Mormon doctrines/beliefs as you are suggesting I am doing. Where you got that only you know my friend. As far as the Mormon belief that LDS priesthood has 'existed' forever or was invoked a few short hours ago is happily none of my concern, being an ex-Mormon. It is yours, and you are welcome to it. Your beliefs are yours, as LDS. They are not mine, as a Christian, nor do they align with the beliefs of all Christianity. I'm not arguing with any Mormon doctrines. I was attempting to bring out the point that mormonism believes there are multiple "eternal GODS" as in plural where Mormons were stating they believe only "one" god is eternal, which is technically non-factual. Mormonism states there are multiple "eternal gods", not just one. Not just one as in Christianity. The One True God of everywhere is perfect according to Him, and we Christians agree. The LDS does not accept that. Again, okay. Is there something wrong with that statement? That mormonism accepts there are multiple "eternal GODS" with multiple Jesus Christs as well, aka plural eternal GODS and a plurality of Saviors scattered throughout the universe/s? If you personally don't wish to believe that as a Mormon--you certainly don't have to, but that is what it states.

“I wish to declare I have always and in all congregations when I have preached on the subject of Deity, it has been the plurality of Gods.”
- JS, Jr., History of the Church, v. 6, p. 306

“In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it.”
- JS, Jr., History of the Church, v. 6, p. 307-308

This is what the founder of mormonism taught as truth, is it not? It is still accepted by LDS to this day, is it not? So where is the "ignorance"? And why wouldn't I "go on and on" about the vagaries of mormonism beliefs in an... LDS debate forum? I don't get your "logic" there.

How can you be Mormon if you don't believe in God? A friend of a coworker shared with us once about how she became LDS despite being unsure of God's existence, which the missionaries and the bishop were made fully aware of. They freely allowed her to be baptized anyway, claiming she would come to understand as time went on. She eventually left the LDS after she realized they were "play-acting". (Her words, not mine. I never delved further into exactly what she meant by that, mainly because it didn't concern me nor did it appear to bother her all that much.) Sadly, she remained staunchly agnostic until passing away about 8 years ago. I believed her because she had no reason to lie. That's how. If that's not an official enough source for you, well, I can't help that. I freely admit I couldn't be bothered to search out the endless reams of paperwork the LDS holds to explain the minutia of their beliefs like Phoebe does so very expertly. Frankly, I don't know how she keeps such dogged patience. Got to be divine inspiration.

 

[tickingclocker]

"Yep, Joseph Smith was not a great speller. If I ever run into him I'll make sure to let him know that his grammar did not meet with your approval."
---RAN77

Like I said, no offense intended.

 

[now faith]

There's a like 100 page thread on it from not too long ago. Read till your heart's content.

No need to be trite about the Question a simple yes or no would have been fine.
After all it is a yes or no question,it doesn't take on debate.

 

[now faith]

We teach that God the Father organized all the intelligences of light into spirits. Yahweh is the first born of those spirit children. All the rest of the spirits came after that including Gabriel, Michael, you, me and yes Lucifer. Lucifer was known has Son of Dawn or 'the morning star' oddly enough Jesus is also known as 'the morning star'. In Job 38 speaking about the foundation of the world it says " When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" These two sons sang together when the world was first proposed and founded but then Lucifer rebelled. He wanted to be above the stars of God he wanted to sit in God's throne.

D&C 76
26 And was called Perdition, for the heavens wept over him—he was Lucifer, a son of the morning.
27 And we beheld, and lo, he is fallen! is fallen, even a son of the morning!

You find this terminology in Bible translation other than the King James.
In the Critical Text verses in Isaiah and Revelation use the same terminology.

The Word Lucifer means light bearer ,in Job your confusion is due to proof therotic semantics.

Job: 1. 6. Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. 7. And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Notice Satan is referred to as one who came among them,and God asks whence or where have you been.
There are no references to Christ here.
This is getting old ,you deny the divinity of Christ,assume God was a man at some point,it is Hearcy and makes no sense at all.
Supernatural stones,lost gold plates that were given back by some Native American deity,all based on one man's word,they did not even test this word with God's Word that you claim to follow as well.
Forget suppisions and learn the only truth that is found in the Study of God's Word.

 

[Ran77]

So if a leader or church manual taught that God progressed to or achieved Godhood, or that God has not always been God, would that leader or church manual be teaching incorrect or false doctrine?

I'd be happy to discuss any such material. As I indicated, my personal thought on the matter is that this is more difficult a concept than we can fully understand. However, what you are indicating here exists in the same form in the Bible as it does in LDS beliefs. Looking at your comment below, I accept that Trinitarians believe that God has eternally existed as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Yet the Bible states that Christ is the firstborn of all creation. Several passages in the Bible speak of Christ growing in strength, wisdom, and spirit. It also speaks of Christ inheriting all that the Father has. This is language that speaks of progress to Godhood. And yet, John 1: 1 states that in the beginning was the Word and the Word was God. What it really boils down to is that the Bible says that Jesus was God from the beginning and we have to trust that what the Bible says is true.

Or put another way, much of our understanding of the Father comes from what we know about Jesus. The Bible tells us Jesus was God in the beginning, came down to Earth and gained a mortal body, lived a mortal life, died and then rose from the dead. Where the main difference lies between our beliefs is that LDS doctrine indicates that the Father may have had the same experience as Christ. And for those who believe that the Father, and Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are one individual the difference is one of technicality because anything that happened to Jesus would therefore be true of the Father.

Does that help any?

For Trinitarians, we believe that God has eternally existed as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The Persons of God exist in an eternal relationship with each other. So, I'm wondering, has God, or the Godhead, always existed as such?

At the moment, I can't think of any scriptures or talks by LDS leaders that give a solid answer to this question. The best I can do is refer back to John 1: 1 and state that if Jesus has always existed then it seems reasonable that the Godhead has always existed. LDS doctrine is that all intelligences are eternal and without beginning.

 

[now faith]

Proverbs: 8. 22. The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. 23. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. 24. When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. 25. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: 26. While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. 27. When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: 28. When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: 29. When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: 30. Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; 31. Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men. 32. Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways. 33. Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not. 34. Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors. 35. For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD. 36. But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death. -