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LDS The 'beginning' of God in Mormonism

withwonderingawe

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Can we separate our selves?
Can we walk outside of the realm of our own being?
This is the divine nature of Christ He is the Father He is the I AM that I AM.
What would happen if your Spirit was a separate being all together?
It would not be your Spirit.
The Mormons use the King James Bible as reference, but slice it to fit their theology.
Moving on in John:

Noooo that was his point God is his superior.

If you had never heard of the Trinity before reading this passage you would never find the Trinity in it.
17 ¶But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

You see the apostate Jews thought the same way as you, they had married the daughter of a strange god, Mal 2. They had merged Yahweh and El the Father into one god. So they got the same false understanding that somehow he was making himself equal to God the Father.

But Jesus' answer makes a clear separation between the Father and son.

" Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself..." He can't make one move without the approval of the Father thus making the Father greater than himself. He even said so in John 14 "I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I" It's not his own works he does but the Father's works he does. Another thing he said was "nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done." Luke 22 He is separate enough from the Father to have his own 'will' what he does is bow his will to the Father's.

" For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth"

What can that mean? He shows himself what he has done??? I don't have to lose all sense of logic in order to understand the scriptures.

With the metaphysical idea of a hidden realm,I do not see how you miss the correlation between man and God,both are Body,Soul ,and Spirit in the same person.

I don't accept that metaphysical nonsense, it comes from Greek philosophy and not from the Bible.

"and the word which ye hear is not mine"

Not his? If Jesus is the Father then the words have to be his. Why in the world would anyone speak this way?

"...and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him." We? It's like the Us and Our in Gen 1, it clearly shows there is more than one being here!

If God is not omnipresent, then he cannot occupy the hearts of mankind.

The light of God is within all of us,
D&C 88
11 And the light which shineth, which giveth you light, is through him who enlighteneth your eyes, which is the same light that quickeneth your understandings;
12 Which light proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space—
13 The light which is in all things, which giveth life to all things, which is the law by which all things are governed, even the power of God who sitteth upon his throne, who is in the bosom of eternity, who is in the midst of all things.

In that sense God is omnipresent.
 
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fatboys

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I find it odd that a person will gamble eternal damnation based on one mans story,without a single wittness to back him.

Meanwhile, the Smith family faced financial hardship due in part to the November 1823 death of Smith's oldest brother Alvin, who had assumed a leadership role in the family.[20] Family members supplemented their meager farm income by hiring out for odd jobs and working as treasure seekers, a type of magical supernaturalism common during the period.[21] Smith was said to have an ability to locate lost items by looking into a seer stone, which he also used in treasure hunting, including several unsuccessful attempts to find buried treasure sponsored by a wealthy farmer in Chenango County, New York.[22] In 1826, Smith was brought before a Chenango County court for "glass-looking", or pretending to find lost treasure.[23] Theresult of the proceeding remains unclear as primary sources report various conflicting outcomes.[24]
This is a prophet?
I hope most here will see the light before the last call
Good grief. The history you have been reading comes from those who literally hate the church and Joseph Smith? Since their only goal is to embellish twist and misrepresent how accurate is their version of history. Do you have people who dislike you? If I went to them to get your history about you how accurate that old be?
 
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withwonderingawe

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I find it odd that a person will gamble eternal damnation based on one mans story,without a single wittness to back him.

Meanwhile, the Smith family faced financial hardship due in part to the November 1823 death of Smith's oldest brother Alvin, who had assumed a leadership role in the family.[20] Family members supplemented their meager farm income by hiring out for odd jobs and working as treasure seekers, a type of magical supernaturalism common during the period.[21] Smith was said to have an ability to locate lost items by looking into a seer stone, which he also used in treasure hunting, including several unsuccessful attempts to find buried treasure sponsored by a wealthy farmer in Chenango County, New York.[22] In 1826, Smith was brought before a Chenango County court for "glass-looking", or pretending to find lost treasure.[23] Theresult of the proceeding remains unclear as primary sources report various conflicting outcomes.[24]
This is a prophet?
I hope most here will see the light before the last call

Was Jesus family well to do? Meager income? Looking back at the land records the Smith family farm was improved so much it was worth more than the other properties around them.

"To create their farm, for instance, the Smiths moved many tons of rock and cut down about six thousand trees, a large percentage of which were one hundred feet or more in height and from four to six feet in diameter. Then they fenced their property, which required cutting at least six or seven thousand ten-foot rails. They did an enormous amount of work before they were able even to begin actual daily farming.
Furthermore, in order to pay for their farm, the Smiths were obliged to hire themselves out as day laborers. Throughout the surrounding area, they dug and rocked up wells and cisterns, mowed, harvested, made cider and barrels and chairs and brooms and baskets, taught school, dug for salt, worked as carpenters and domestics, built stone walls and fireplaces, flailed grain, cut and sold cordwood, carted, washed clothes, sold garden produce, painted chairs and oil-cloth coverings, butchered, dug coal, and hauled stone. And, along the way, they produced between one thousand and seven thousand pounds of maple sugar annually." (FairMormon)

"....working as treasure seekers, a type of magical supernaturalism common during the period."

This whole thing is so over blown, there is not one sited incident where someone claimed; 'Joseph came to me and offered to help me find treasure on my property if I would pay him money'. I mean how would that work anyway, I would say find the treasure first and then we'll split it. He could find things with his seer stone, there are several stories to attest to it. However we really don't know much about his stone, we don't know when he got it. There are a lot of second hand stories which are hard to believe and in fact I don't believe. The church has a stone but is it the one? Looking at the line of ownership it's impossible to really know for sure.

The 1826 trial is so clouded with forgeries and false witnesses that it is very hard to know the truth. The biggest problem is that it took place in a Justice of the Peace court which keeps no records of the proceedings. So all of the trial records are a farce. Second the record they have with the "glass-looking" is out of date sequence. The one above it says March 20th and his say March 22. Someone went in and forge the date in order to line it up with some other paper work they have. The guy who found the documents stole them and kept them until the county clerk threaten to sue him. According to Oliver Cowdery the whole thing was thrown out of court when the man he was accused of defrauding Josiah Stowell backed Joseph up. Stowell was a treasure seeker and thought he could find a mine on his property, he came to Joseph to see if he could help. He offered a lot of money just for digging so Joseph and his father dug for about a month. Joseph claimed after that he was able to talk Josiah out of it and they stopped looking. He became a good friend to Joseph and a faithful member of the Church even though they found no treasure.
 
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withwonderingawe

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Just out of curiosity, why is Mormonism all about Joseph Smith and not really about God or Jesus Christ? Every time the Mormons have come to my door the focus of their talks has been Joseph Smith and the need to pray to God to determine the veracity of his religious claims.

It's not, the Book of Mormon is about Jesus, nearly all of our Sunday School lessons are about Jesus and how to walk more closely with him. Nearly all of our sermons are focused on Jesus and his atonement. BUT it was Joseph Smith who opened up the last dispensation and through the revelations given to him by Jesus he restored the true knowledge of the Gospel of Christ.

D&C 76
19 And while we meditated upon these things, the Lord touched the eyes of our understandings and they were opened, and the glory of the Lord shone round about.
20 And we beheld the glory of the Son, on the right hand of the Father, and received of his fulness;
21 And saw the holy angels, and them who are sanctified before his throne, worshiping God, and the Lamb, who worship him forever and ever.
22 And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives!
23 For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father—
24 That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God.
 
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Jane_Doe

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Just out of curiosity, why is Mormonism all about Joseph Smith and not really about God or Jesus Christ?
It's not. It's the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

As to praying to God to know Truth, what's so crazy about that? Would you rather ask a fallible human to know Truth?
 
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fatboys

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Just out of curiosity, why is Mormonism all about Joseph Smith and not really about God or Jesus Christ? Every time the Mormons have come to my door the focus of their talks has been Joseph Smith and the need to pray to God to determine the veracity of his religious claims.
Really? If we claim there is a restoration and this was done through a living breathing prophet and this prophets name was Joseph Smith then some of the discussion is going to be about that prophet. The whole message is about living prophets today just as there was throughout all biblical history. These living prophets bear fruits of truths revealed to man. Many of Jess truths clarify Christ and who he was and it testify a that he is alive and well today. The greatest message is that Christ loves us and wants all of us to return to the Father. He has provided the way for that to happen.
 
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BigDaddy4

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Really? If we claim there is a restoration and this was done through a living breathing prophet and this prophets name was Joseph Smith then some of the discussion is going to be about that prophet. The whole message is about living prophets today just as there was throughout all biblical history. These living prophets bear fruits of truths revealed to man. Many of Jess truths clarify Christ and who he was and it testify a that he is alive and well today. The greatest message is that Christ loves us and wants all of us to return to the Father. He has provided the way for that to happen.
With this claim of an apostasy, and the lack of evidence to prove it, the lds portrays god as weak, allowing men to foil his plans. Somehow, in lds theology, the Word wasn't able to keep his word. The creation overcomes the Creator?? Nah, I don't think so.
 
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fatboys

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With this claim of an apostasy, and the lack of evidence to prove it, the lds portrays god as weak, allowing men to foil his plans. Somehow, in lds theology, the Word wasn't able to keep his word. The creation overcomes the Creator?? Nah, I don't think so.
Let's take a look at what a apostasy might look like.
The most important evidence that a apostasy took place is the solis fact that there are thousands of different denominations claiming that they are the most correct. And how many churches did Jesus organize?
The next would be prophets and apostles. Where are the prophets and apostles? You have religious people call themselves ministers evangelicals priests bishops elders clergy teachers but no prophets or apostles.
Next is authority. Even if the priesthood did not exist where does a person get his authority from God? He feels like he should serve? He was given a sign that he should serve? Both of which are frowned upon by Christians because you cannot rely or trust either. More later
 
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withwonderingawe

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Let's take a look at what a apostasy might look like.
The most important evidence that a apostasy took place is the solis fact that there are thousands of different denominations claiming that they are the most correct. And how many churches did Jesus organize?
The next would be prophets and apostles. Where are the prophets and apostles? You have religious people call themselves ministers evangelicals priests bishops elders clergy teachers but no prophets or apostles.
Next is authority. Even if the priesthood did not exist where does a person get his authority from God? He feels like he should serve? He was given a sign that he should serve? Both of which are frowned upon by Christians because you cannot rely or trust either. More later


There was an apostasy because the Bible prophesied of an apostasy, not to believe in the apostasy is to deny the Bible.
 
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NYCGuy

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There was an apostasy because the Bible prophesied of an apostasy, not to believe in the apostasy is to deny the Bible.

Nowhere does the Bible claim that the Church that Jesus Christ established would fail, that it would be removed from the earth.
 
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NYCGuy

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Let's take a look at what a apostasy might look like.
The most important evidence that a apostasy took place is the solis fact that there are thousands of different denominations claiming that they are the most correct. And how many churches did Jesus organize?

By this logic the Mormon church must be in apostasy too. Why don't you take a look at all of the churches resulting from Joseph Smith's "restoration". Here, I'll make it easy for you:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_denominations_in_the_Latter_Day_Saint_movement

Yes, an apostasy occurred right after Joseph Smith allegedly restored the church. This is using the same logic you're using.
 
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NYCGuy

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Just out of curiosity, why is Mormonism all about Joseph Smith and not really about God or Jesus Christ? Every time the Mormons have come to my door the focus of their talks has been Joseph Smith and the need to pray to God to determine the veracity of his religious claims.

Well, to become a Mormon, you have to accept the claims of Joseph Smith.
 
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dzheremi

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Let's take a look at what a apostasy might look like. The most important evidence that a apostasy took place is the solis fact that there are thousands of different denominations claiming that they are the most correct.

So why did Joseph Smith ostensibly form another one? Seems like the opposite of what he should have done, if the 'evidence' of the so-called apostasy is that these other denominations exist. Now with the LDS there's at least one more, to say nothing of the offshoots of the LDS. He kinda furthered the 'apostasy', according to your own logic.

The scriptures, by the way, tell us of the function of schism, which is not to usher in any kind of 'restoration': For there must also be factions among you, that those who are approved may be recognized among you. (1 Corinthians 11:19 NKJV)

And how many churches did Jesus organize?

One, and it was not the LDS church.

The next would be prophets and apostles. Where are the prophets and apostles?

The age of public revelation ended with the death of the apostles, but we can say that St. Mark was in Egypt and Libya, St. Paul and St. Peter in Antioch, St. Bartholomew and St. Thaddeus in Armenia, and so on (these being of the 12 or of the 70; there really isn't need for any more, as there is no new revelation to be given).

You have religious people call themselves ministers evangelicals priests bishops elders clergy teachers but no prophets or apostles.

So what? You have 19 year olds who call themselves 'elders'; I don't think your religion has any room to talk about who is doing what. And the lack of 'prophets' or 'apostles' is to Christianity's credit, as it prevents obviously bogus situations like when you guys have to pretend that in 1978 'God' changed his mind about black people and all kinds of other nonsense, and try to defend yourselves against critics by claiming that they're using texts with the wrong copyright dates, thereby tacitly admitting that your doctrine changes with each successive 'prophet'. And you have the nerve to talk about Christianity as though it is not protected or whatever because it doesn't have your phony baloney prophets? They're doing exactly what you claim Christian churches to be doing by forming new denominations to suit doctrinal innovations, so get outta here with that nonsense. What's the difference between the 5,000 or whatever number of Christian denominations you have in mind and Mormonism? The denominations are open about following one guy's vision (or gal's, e.g., Ellen G. White), while the Mormons pretend that their ever-changing conceptions of what their religion is are given to them by 'God' via their living prophets.

I don't know about you, but I'm a lot more comfortable with the idea of someone like Ellen G. White, Menno Simons, Martin Luther, etc. being wrong in the particulars of their religious belief (as any person can be) than with the idea that 'God' suddenly decided in 1830 or whatever that what had been taught as Christianity for almost 2,000 years by that point was all wrong. But no...Mormons can't stop putting their ever-evolving ideas into the mouth of 'God' via their prophets, and then castigating the rest of us for not having such a wonderfully secure religious system as they do. Well it doesn't look to be so protected from the outside, I'll just put it that way. I realize that Mormons themselves subscribe to the idea that the prophets will never contradict their faith or lead their church into error, but that's a bit like me saying that you should call the Coptic Pope of Alexandria the Judge of the Universe since we do that in my Church (in recognition of the role played by the Bishop of Alexandria in setting the date for the celebration of Easter back in the third century).

Next is authority. Even if the priesthood did not exist where does a person get his authority from God?

"Where does a person get his authority from God"? Hmmm..."from God" is probably a good indicator for the answer to that question. As far as the exact mechanism by which that authority is vested in the person, I suppose that varies according to what church you are looking at (there are some very 'low church' churches out there, after all, where there might not be much involved with being a pastor/preacher), but traditionally it is by the laying on of hands by the bishop during ordination, the idea being that the bishop was himself ordained by a bishop, who was ordained by a bishop, and so on back to the beginning of the Church.

Here is a very short clip (about 3 minutes of what I'm told is a ceremony that is hours long) of the concluding prayers said over a newly ordained priest in my own Church, as part of the ordination ceremony by which he is welcomed into the Church so as to serve at the altar of God. The presiding bishops are HG Bishop Serapion of the Los Angeles Diocese (where the priest now serves) and HG Bishop Youssef of the Southern United States Diocese of the Coptic Orthodox Church.


That's how, in a nutshell. You are given some authority by someone who has authority to give to you, and they got it from someone who got theirs likewise, etc. going back to the apostles themselves. This is yet another reason why this 'restoration' business doesn't work: there actually are chains of bishops going back to the early church itself by which we can say, indisputably (but that some dispute it to give their own religions/churches reasons to exist), that we are rooted in the apostolic faith. Granted, at least in the Orthodox conception this also requires the maintenance of that faith unchanged (such that we don't have things like the Roman Catholic phenomenon of 'Episcopi Vagantes' whereby people may be said to be validly ordained despite not being in communion with the Church), but the same principle is at play historically: One or more of the 12 or of the 70 brought the faith to a given land or people, ordained bishops to carry on after he left, and those bishops ordained bishops, who ordained bishops, etc. This is so in Rome, this is so in Alexandria, this is so in Antioch, and everywhere else that the apostles were known to have traveled. So a 'restoration' doesn't work, because there's already living lines of bishops all over the world which trace their ordination back to the apostolic times.

What there may be (and this, as everything, varies according to which particular church you are looking at) is what the Roman Catholics call a 'titular see', which is the see of a former diocese that is no longer functioning. Thus, for instance, we know from historical records there were dioceses of the Syriac Orthodox Church in what is now Afghanistan between the 7th and 13th centuries (in Zaranj and Herat, to name a few). We don't know exactly when they stopped functioning, but that's the time period that is attested to in the historical record. If the Syriac Orthodox Church were to name any bishop for these territories, they would be purely 'titular' (at least with respect to that territory), since there are no longer any people of Syriac Orthodox confession to serve at those locations. This phenomenon is much more well-known among the Roman Catholics, I suspect, due to the number of territories they had once gained through the Crusades and later European colonialism that now have no worshipers in them due to the changing fortunes of the RCC's European backers (i.e., when the Italians pulled out of Libya or Somalia, their Catholic churches were destroyed or converted to mosques by the locals).

This does not, I hope you'll note, do anything to affect the normative mechanism by which the Church is established in a given place. In other words, say there was some reason to reestablish the Roman Catholic Church in Somalia (mass conversions or some such big change from the current state of affairs): they would still send bishops who were ordained by bishops, etc. So this idea that the Church is 'taken away from the earth' or whatever really doesn't hold up, since there are always going to be descendants of the apostles and their disciples, to be spread out over the earth and hence to spread the faith over the earth. Probably the closest the world ever got to witnessing the complete destruction of a Christian Church (not the Christian Church entire, but one very important, ancient, and indisputably apostolic Church) was during the genocide against the Armenians at the hands of the Turks at the beginning of the last century. I've read that upwards of 90% of their clergy were slaughtered.

That was in 1915, and now barely 100 years later, the Armenian Apostolic Church maintains a (self-reported) population of some 9 million people, the majority of whom do not live in Armenia (largely thanks to the genocide creating a worldwide diaspora of over 5 million people).

That is but the most extreme and obvious historical example, but it should suffice to show why this idea of an 'apostasy' and the church being taken away or disappearing as a result is not only wildly inaccurate and impossible, but also something of a slap in the face to those who never, ever went anywhere and yet the LDS or whatever other restorationist groups like to pretend don't count because...whatever reason. Because they weren't LDS, I guess, so to the warped mind that apparently thinks that God lied when saying that the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church, the existence of these people is evidence of the apostasy, rather than a refutation of it.

To that I say: What makes you LDS people so sure that the existence of your group is not evidence of an apostasy? After all, Christian groups of all eras and places, while they often disagree with one another, likewise do not agree with the BOM or the LDS. At least with many groups they have some verifiable history to point to whereby you can say that they were established in some sense in Christianity (as Orthodox, as Catholics, as Protestants) via this way or that way, or on this date, or by this person, or whatever. But Mormonism specifically shies away from that precisely because of the LDS belief in a 'great apostasy' whereby you claim that such things cannot be known or trusted, or are evidence of this apostasy itself.

Well...whether or not you think they are evidence of an apostasy, they are also evidence of the historical reality of Christianity as it existed in a given place, in a given time, and/or among a given people. So while you're certainly still free to disagree with them doctrinally (I don't agree 100% with anyone outside of the Oriental Orthodox Church, myself), it makes no sense whatsoever to maintain this fiction that 'the church is taken from the earth' because some people claiming it are wrong. We (Christians) all agree that Mormonism is wrong, and yet you're still here. So disagreement is a pretty low bar by which to claim the non-existence of something, and of course without the Church not existing, the entire idea of the (LDS or other) 'restoration' falls apart and is revealed to be the scam and/or wishful thinking that it in fact is.
 
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withwonderingawe

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Nowhere does the Bible claim that the Church that Jesus Christ established would fail, that it would be removed from the earth.

I see you're new, you missed my long theses. No one refuted it, not even an attempt to refute it!
 
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withwonderingawe

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Well, to become a Mormon, you have to accept the claims of Joseph Smith.

And to become Christian you have to accept the claims of Jesus, think about the people in those days trying to decided between their family traditions and something new and so radically different?
 
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NYCGuy

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And to become Christian you have to accept the claims of Jesus, think about the people in those days trying to decided between their family traditions and something new and so radically different?

And I guess we should think of the claims of Ellen G. White, Charles Taze Russell, L. Ron Hubbard, etc. etc., down since Jesus Christ, i.e. God, established His Church. Nothing new under the sun, quite frankly.
 
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dzheremi

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And to become Christian you have to accept the claims of Jesus, think about the people in those days trying to decided between their family traditions and something new and so radically different?

Yes, what about them?

There is no sense in which it is appropriate to draw such a connection between Joseph Smith and Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
 
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withwonderingawe

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And I guess we should think of the claims of Ellen G. White, Charles Taze Russell, L. Ron Hubbard, etc. etc., down since Jesus Christ, i.e. God, established His Church. Nothing new under the sun, quite frankly.

For every true prophet God sends Satan will send dozens of false ones.
 
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