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Featured The Beast

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Tree of Life, Nov 20, 2017.

  1. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member

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    10 kings did overthrow Rome and the Roman Empire. 10 Gothic kings. They gave their power to the papacy, mainly because they produced forged documents which said that Peter had passed him spiritual power and Constantine, the political power over the empire. The papacy overthrew 3 of these kings.

    Brother, it was not the rapture that I was denying, but the pre tribulation rapture, for which I believe there is no scriptural warrant.
     
  2. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member

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    No.
    25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart and by peace shall destroy many he shall also stand up against the Prince (Jesus Christ) of princes; but he shall be broken without hand .

    Oh dear, We are reading about the end of the Greek kingdom, you already said that, not something far into the future. he last Greek monarch was Cleopatra. Her allies were Antony and Herod.

    After Antony and Cleopatra were defeated, Herod would have expected to be killed also, but by craftiness he managed to change sides. He magnified himself over the Jews, but his power was from the Romans, first Antony then Augustus. By peace he shall destroy many, is difficult for whichever understanding you take. I will take the following view, by cosying up to Rome, he gave peace to the Jews from Rome who became very favourable to the Jews during his rule. He destroyed the sanhedrin who had called him before them, he made his brother in law high priest them had him drowned. He murdered his favourite wife and her two sons, then one of his other sons. He placed a golden Eagle on the wall of the temple and then burnt to death the men who removed it, When he knew he was going to die, he believed, probably correctly, that no one would morn him so the ordered that when he died many prominent Jews should be out to death so that when he died there would be mourning. This command was not carried out. He killed many others beside.

    he shall also stand up against the Princce of princes;
    Well that does not need commentary. Herod tried to have the infant King slain. When the wise men evaded him, he had the infants in Bethlehem slain.

    • 23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
    • 24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
    • 25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
    He was broken without hand, He died in agony of some painful disease. All wonderfully fulfilled.
    Here is a tip for you brother. When popular teaching says a prophecy in the OT, in particular Daniel jumps to the future, check it carefully. There is usually a local explanation. When it says the End or something similar again look for a local fulfillment first, as there usually is one. and most importantly be careful not to take every willful king to be the antichrist as usually they are not
     
  3. Revealing Times

    Revealing Times Well-Known Member

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    Lets just "play pretend" and forget the scriptures that proves your theory is a fantasy brother. I mean I just do not get the ignoring of easy to understand scripture, which strains credulity.

    Rev. 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. 13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

    14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

    So the 10 Kings receiver power ONE HOUR with the Beast, and those same 10 KINGS make war with the Lamb Jesus Christ when he returns. How hard is this to understand brother? How long are you going to continue down a road that was disproved via the Scriptures long ago. I mean those 10 Kings gave their power to the "Papacy" even though scripture points out that what you are saying is just not a possibility. Scriptures are scriptures. The 10 Kings rule with the Anti-Christ or Beast for a SHORT TIME, then they battle Jesus at Armageddon. This is pretty basic stuff.

    So why try to bring up the 1820 bogus argument then? Because its very apparent that the Rapture is pre the 70th week. The Scriptures tell us that also, in MANY PLACES !! 1 Corinthians 15 tells us that we are changed in the Twinkling of an eye at the same time the Dead in Christ are raised. This means we DIE....Our bodies can not enter Heaven. So if we go to meet Jesus in the air to come straight back down to earth, why do we need to shed our bodies? The passage clearly says our corrupt flesh can not enter into Heaven. It also says those in the grave will be raised incorruptible, meaning they are SPIRIT MEN, they have no flesh bodies of course. We are given new bodies in Heaven. We return to earth on White Horses with Jesus Christ (Rev. 19), then the battle of Armageddon takes place. Just because you came to believe a falsehood brother doesn't mean you have to stick with it, we all have to overcome falsehoods in our lifetimes, that's for sure.

    The Church Age must end, then Israel is back on the clock for the final week or seven years. The Church will be in Heaven Marrying the Lamb, in his Fathers Mansion. If you stop trying to make the Church and Israel one then all the other things would come together no doubt.

    I think Greece is still a country, the fact that you don't understand that simple fact is kind of bewildering to be honest. Daniel 7:12 says these Beasts will live on, even after they have lost their Dominion. That doesn't mean after the Beast is cast into Hell, it means after each Beast lost their POWER or DOMINION as Beasts. Greece is still a Country. The Anti-Christ IS/WAS born in Greece. All the Cleopatra stuff I find amusing to be frank, you can't be serious?

    Jesus Christ is the Prince of princes, and this has ZERO to do with King Herod. You switch from Cleopatra to King Herod in back to back verse, you are all over the place man.


    No, its very clear, the Anti-Christ is defeated by the Holy Spirit.

    I don't know if your pride will ever allow you to see this to be honest. You have it in your mind, and its going to take some soul searching to get out these men's traditions. But God willing you will come to understand the whole RCC and Islam angles are just men's traditions.

    God Bless....
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2017
  4. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member

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    If "its very apparent that the Rapture is pre the 70th week" how come no church taught that before the 19th century?

    As I have already said, the 70th week was completely fulfilled in NT times.
    That last part of the above quote is so mixed up I cannot understand what you are getting at.

    When Christ descends we shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye, we shall be like Him.
    • 1 Corrinthians 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
    • 49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
    • 50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
    • 51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    • 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    • 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
    • 54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
    • 55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
    • 56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
    • 57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
    • 1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
    • 1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    He shall descend, not ascend.
     
  5. Revealing Times

    Revealing Times Well-Known Member

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    Paul taught it. For you to try and pretend you know what churches taught all over the world is pretty audacious to be honest. So by making that claim its supposed to make me believe that is the case I guess. It 2 Thessalonian 2 Paul is clearly telling them that the Church DEPARTS before the Anti-Christ and Day of the Lord arrives. You choose to believe its a "Falling Away" even though the first 7 English translations say its a DEPARTURE and nowhere in the passage is Faith spoken of, but the Rapture or Gathering together unto the Lord is spoken of. All of Jesus' teaching were on the Rapture were cryptic, it was to be given unto Paul, the Disciple unto the Gentiles. Thus if you look you can find the teachings.

    First, the Lord chose a people (Israel) that would be His bride, His wife. Several times in the Old Testament the Lord describes Israel as His wife. It all began when the Lord chose Abraham and promised him that his descendants would be a great and numerous people. But at Mount Sinai the chosen wife became adulterous and worshipped the Golden Calf. Time and again, through the prophets, the Lord called for Israel to return to Him.

    The two brides.

    Finally, the Lord told Israel,

    "I am sought of [them that] asked not [for me]; I am found of [them that] sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation [that] was not called by my name.” - Isaiah 65:1 So the Lord turned to the Gentiles. In the New Testament the Church, composed of Gentiles and Jews, is also described as the Bride of the Lord Jesus, the second bride of Scripture. The Bible shows us these two brides in the same manner and pattern as the Jewish wedding, and the Jewish wedding fits the themes of the seven appointed times given by the Lord.
    The Lord gave the Children of Israel three Spring Feasts in Leviticus 23:4-14, Passover, Unleavened Bread and Firstfruits. Here is how they were fulfilled:

    Passover - Jesus paid the price for our sins when He died on the Cross. Jesus was the Lamb of God. (John 1:29) Jesus was the Passover Lamb.

    Firstfruits - The day we recognize as Resurrection Sunday is the Jewish Feast of Firstfruits. Jesus was the Firstfruits of the grave. (First Corinthians 15:20)

    Unleavened Bread - According to Scripture, “Passover Week” is the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Leavening is figurative of sin; Jesus was “unleavened,” without sin. Jesus paid the price at the Feast of Unleavened Bread.

    There is a thread of continuity that flows through the seven feasts, or appointed times, first given by the Lord. Here are the steps taken in completing the Jewish wedding and its application to the wedding of the Church to the Lord Jesus, followed by how this ties to the seven appointed feasts of Israel:

    The steps of the traditional Jewish wedding:

    1 – Selection of the Bride
    Jewish Wedding - The Son chooses the Bride – the Father makes the arrangements
    Church - John 15:16 – “You did not choose Me, but I chose you . . .”

    2 – The Bride Price established
    Jewish Wedding - The father of the bride must be reimbursed for the loss of his daughter.
    Church - I Corinthians 6:20 - “For you were bought with a price.” The Bride price was paid when Jesus died on the Cross.

    We who are saved by Jesus were sought by the Lord. (Isaiah 65:1) Jesus paid the price on Passover. The appointed times of Firstfruits and Unleavened Bread complete the picture of Jesus being resurrected and being sinless, the spotless Lamb of God.

    The Spring Feasts have all been fulfilled.

    Pentecost, or the Feast of Weeks, was the fourth appointed time given by the Lord in Leviticus 23:15-22.

    Just as the Lord deals with the Church in a separate manner from His chosen, the Jews, I strongly suspect that Pentecost, which is separate from the Spring Feasts and the Fall Feasts, is specific to the Church.

    The steps of the traditional Jewish wedding cintinued:

    3 – The Betrothal
    Jewish Wedding - More than mere “engagement”, it was a permanent arrangement. Recall the story of Joseph and Mary.
    Church – The attachment of the Church to the Lord is also permanent, and forever. “This is the bread which came down from heaven--not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.” (John 6:58) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand. (John 10:28)

    4 – The Marriage Contract
    Jewish Wedding – A written agreement committing each party to the marriage.
    Church - The entire Holy Bible is our written agreement containing the promises of God. Jesus said, “If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed;” (John 8:31)

    5 – The Bride must consent
    Jewish Wedding – This is not entirely an arranged marriage; the bride must agree.
    Church – “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;” (Mark 16:16) “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.” (Romans 10:9)

    6 – The Bridal Gift and the Cup of the Covenant
    Jewish Wedding – A glass of wine is taken upon the signing of the contract.
    Church – Each time we gather around the Lord’s Table, we remember the “contract.” “And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave [it] to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament (covenant), which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” (Matthew 26:27-28)
    Jewish Wedding – The Bride is given a gift by the groom.
    Church - The Holy Spirit is given by Jesus –– “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” (Acts 2:38) This, of course, occurred on the Day of Pentecost.

    7 – The Ceremonial Purification of the Bride
    Jewish Wedding - The next step for the Bride after she is betrothed is a ceremonial cleansing. In Biblical times the Bride would use a Mikvah, which was pool of water, in which she would immerse herself.
    Church - Acts 2:41 – “Then those who gladly received his word were baptized (immersed); and that day about three thousand souls were added [to them].”

    The Church is an insertion in the Lord's Plan. Israel was the original bride. I believe that the Lord Jesus will come for His bride, the Church, in a separate event (the Rapture) from the Lord's return for His bride, Israel. From this point forward in the Jewish Wedding process, following the purification of the bride, in my opinion the Church will be dealt with separately in the time defined as the Church Age, or the Age of Grace. This period of time will extend from the first Day of Pentecost to the day when the Lord Jesus calls us Home.

    8 – The Groom would prepare a room for the Bride in his father’s house
    Church - John 14:3 – “I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself.”

    The father of the groom determines when the room is ready. The groom does not determine the time of the wedding. “But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.” (Matthew 24:36)

    9 – The Bride is consecrated and set apart
    Church - First Peter 2:9 – “But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people.”

    10 – The Groom returns with a shout, “Behold, the bridegroom comes!”
    Church - First Thessalonians 4:16 – “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.”

    Let me insert an additional hope at this point. When the Lord Jesus comes for His Bride, the Church, we will not be totally surprised. Although the Jewish bride did not know the day or the hour, she was expectant. The Apostle Paul in speaking of “that Day” said, “But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day.” (First Thessalonians 5:4-5) Today, many in the Church are expectant and will not be totally surprised.

    11 – The Bride and Groom go to the wedding chamber.
    Church – This period when the Bride and Groom spend time together seems to show that the Bride of Jesus will be with Him in Heaven. This appears to indicate a pre-Tribulation gathering of the Church, and is described in Isaiah 26:20; “Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.” Praise the Lord!

    The marriage was consummated in the wedding chamber. The Bride and Groom stayed in that wedding chamber for seven days . (Seven years)


    12 – The Marriage Supper
    Church – “‘Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.’ And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. Then he said to me, ‘Write: Blessed [are] those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’” (The Revelation 19:7-9)

    In my opinion, the Feast of Pentecost is still being fulfilled and will be completed when the Lord Jesus comes for His bride.

    I believe that in the remaining steps of the Jewish Wedding process, the steps will be fulfilled for Israel in a separate manner.

    The next appointed time is the Feast of Trumpets. The Feast of Trumpets is a mysterious time. Of all the feasts, or appointed times, little is said of it and no scriptural reason for the feast is given. (see Leviticus 23:23-25) A trumpet (the Shofar) is blown. Trumpets make announcements. I suspect that the Feast of Trumpets will be when the Lord in some manner announces the time has come for the fulfillment of His plan for Israel.

    Feast of Trumpets: ends the church age and announces its time for Israel to repent.

    Feast of Atonement: Israel must atone for her sins.

    Feast of Tabernacle: Tabernacle means to dwell with God. Jesus will rule from Jerusalem.

    The Church is in heaven for seven years in the marriage chambers (Heaven).
     
  6. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member

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    The church is not an afterthought in God's plan, it was his master plan from eternity.
     
  7. Revealing Times

    Revealing Times Well-Known Member

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    The Church and Israel are DIFFERENT ENTITIES, when that sinks in people can then get everything God has plans of doing. God stated that through Abraham He was going to bless the whole World. If Israel had of followed Gods word they could have blessed the world, instead through their failings God taught the world. The Church and Israel are two separate entities.

    The Church and Israel must both come unto God via the Blood of Christ, the difference is Israel will stay blinded IN PART, until the Church is Raptured.
     
  8. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member

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    Read your bible the church and Israel joined since the church is grafted in.
    • John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
     
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    The beast of Rev 13 comes to power after the 1260 years of dark ages persecution of the saints listed in Rev 12. Sometime after 1798 it rises up to become a world power.

    Initially that beast operates on the lamb-like (Christian oriented) principle.

    but it then becomes a world super power. And at some point in the future would speak as a dragon. I don't think that dragon-speak phase has begun.

    That means all the bad things in the world like terrorism, North Korean nuclear program etc... would not have any chance of stopping it.
     
  10. Revealing Times

    Revealing Times Well-Known Member

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    They will be one fold, when Jesus RETURNS. Read your bible. The Church goes to heaven to be with Christ for 7 years. Israel stays on earth to REPENT/Atone.

    Who do you think the wheat and the tares are about? the Wheat is Israel, they MUST REMAIN on earth until the Tares are bundled together (killed/destroyed) because they must abide together until the end. Whereas the Church is Raptured to be with the Lord in the air (I say pre trib) even if you believe pre/mid or post they do not abide together until the end so the wheat can only be Israel.

    The Wheat and the Tares grow together until Jesus returns, then the TARES (Wicked) are bound together for burning, but of course they are not judged until 1000 years later, they just go to their graves until Satan is released from the bottomless pit after 1000 years.

    Once the Church returns with Christ, and Israel has repented, we will be ONE FOLD/Family. Until then Israel is Israel, they will not repent until after the Rapture (time of the Gentiles comes full). The Church abides in Christ now, Israel does not.

    God brings us to one place but on separate journeys.
     
  11. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member

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    I have always been told by futurists that Israel and the church will always be separate. And the bible teaches the opposite as much of the church in N T times was Jewish, those who Jesus told to flee Jerusalem when they saw Jerusalem surrounded by armies, that is the Abomination of Desolation.

    Nowhere in the scripture does it say that the Church will go to heaven for seven years. You have made that up.

    No the wheat are believers and the tares are unbelievers.

    Scripture teaches only one coming of Christ
    • Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
    • 10And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
    • 11Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
    All other descriptions must fit in with that.
     
  12. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member

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    Can I ask you a question?

    In your opinion, will the OT saints be raised at the same time as the NT saints?
     
  13. Revealing Times

    Revealing Times Well-Known Member

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    Always as in THIS AGE....You do understand that when Jesus takes over we will not be in the same age so to speak right? Satan will be no more for 1000 years. We all come to the same place but via different paths. Nevertheless Israel will always be Israel. We all need the blood of Jesus to purge us from our sins. As per much of the Church being Jewish, that is why Paul says that Israel will be blind IN PART until the time of the Gentiles are come in. Think of it like this, if God had not of taken the Gospel to the Gentiles the Jews were going to try their best to destroy it via all the powers they had. Then when they were dispersed it would have been difficult to continue the Gospel. Instead God took the Gospel unto the Gentiles, gave them the mantle of the Church Age. Rome, Asia Minor, etc. etc.

    The Pax Romanus was needed to spread the Gospel, God timing was perfect of course. All Roads lead to Rome, thus travel was not only made easier, it was legal for all Roman subjects who paid taxes to travel anywhere they wished in the Kingdom. One common language was used (Koine Greek) which made spreading the Gospel much easier. Gods hand is all over this.

    There was Jews like Paul, Peter, others who spread the gospel, of course Jews had to start it, but God knew the Jews would eventually reject this Gospel. They still do not accept Christ Jesus. There are Messianic Jews thus IN PART they are blind not IN FULL.

    As per the Abomination of Desolation, that has not come to pass yet. By the time it does Israel will have repented and the Church will be in Heaven Marrying the Lamb.

    Well if we are Raptured before the Final week doesn't that add up to Seven Years? Jesus told us that he speaks to us through riddles/parables in many cases where the World hearing will not hear, and seeing will not see. But we are supposed to be able to see these riddles/parables etc.

    The Wheat are supposed to REMAIN with the TARES until the End but even POST TRIBBERS have to admit that can not be the case, they go to meet the Lord in the Air and change in the Twinkling of an eye...........so which is it?

    The Wheat are ISRAEL, they indeed remain (protected by God for 1260 Days) whilst the Church is Raptured to Heaven, just not post Trib, its PRE TRIB of course. The Wheat (Israel) and the Tares (Wicked) remain together until the end !! You see my Eschatology fits in ALL THINGS because it follows Pre Tribulation understandings.
    Scriptures teach the Church meets the Lord in the Air then that we return to earth with him on White Horses. I hate to break it to you bet Jesus returned multiple times AFTER HIS DEATH. He told Mary not to touch him in the Gospel of John, then 8 days later he told Doubting Thomas to thrust his hands into his side. He had already went to the Father and offered the Sacrifice thus he could be touched without being defiled.

    That's up to God, the facts are the Church will be Raptured and then Israel REPENTS.
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2017
  14. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member

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    Of course the Abomination of Desolation, has come to pass. I happened when the Christian Jews saw the armies surrounding Jerusalem, which was to occur within that generation. They were told to flee when the saw the AOD, that is the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem

    "Well if we are Raptured before the Final week doesn't that add up to Seven Years?"
    No there is no final week. It has all been fulfilled.

    The sinners, the tares will remain until the ens when the saints, the saved are caught up to meet the Lord in the air. That include those who are raised from the dead first, and we will meet them and the Lord in the air. That will be on the last day, John 6:40. John 6:44, John 6:54, (Jesus) and
    • John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
    There can be no days after the last day, only eternity. Just as there was only eternity before the first day described in Genesis.

    And the last day will be the day of judgment.
    • John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
    But he didn't finally return to heaven till Acts one. Of course he came in Judgment on the Jews who rejected him in the Roman war, but descending from heaven will only be once. All scripture references to his coming or return are speaking of the same event.

    I know you will never agree with me, but I have continually shown you scriptures to support what I say. Seventy weeks are, (or is, the word is singular) so let's translate it literally Seventy weeks is appointed. or A period of seventy weeks is appointed.

    If all Israel shall be saved, it must be before we meet the Lord in the air, so they can be raised with us.
     
  15. Revealing Times

    Revealing Times Well-Known Member

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    I have proven this so many times it gets wearisome to be honest. But is so easy to prove the Abomination of Desolation has not happened yet. Its called triangulation. I have three passages that NO MAN can read and not agree with me that the Abomination of Desolation is not an END TIME EVENT:

    Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.



    Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, {whoso readeth, let him understand} 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

    Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: (END TIME EVENT) but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets (The Anti-Christ & F.P.), and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.



    Revelation 12:6 And the woman (Israel) fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. 7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; (Michael stands up) and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

    See Daniel chapter 12 my friend? What happens at the TIME OF TROUBLES? We have a RESURRECTION of the Saints IN VERSE 2 !! Do you get it now? Its an END TIME EVENT !! Thus we understand this Time of Trouble is a END TIME EVENT !! Not a 70 AD Event. It also matches with Rev. chapter 12. Michael stands up, and Michael cast Satan out of Heaven. The Woman (Israel) flees in Rev. 12 and Jesus tells the Jewish people to flee Judea when they see this Abomination of Desolation that can ONLY HAPPEN after the Gospel has been preached unto all the world (Then the Rapture). So the TIME OF TROUBLES can only be associated with a Resurrection of the Saints as Dan. 12:2 says. Then in Dan. 12:1 it also says at that time that Israel shall be DELIVERED !! Well in 70 AD Israel was not delivered were they? END TIME EVENT !!

    Nothing, I repeat nothing points to the Abomination of Desolation as having already happened and EVERYTHING points to it as being an END TIME EVENT.

    We must allow the scriptures to lead us, not men's traditions, they will lead us in the wrong direction.

    P.S. Now you know there is a FINAL WEEK !!
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2017
  16. Revealing Times

    Revealing Times Well-Known Member

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    That is not what the Scriptures say, it says they will remain together until the end (of the age).

    Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

    So the tares are killed at Armageddon, at the Harvest of Rev. ch. 14 where the clusters of grapes are placed into the wine-press. God "bundles" them into their graves, they are not judged at this time, they will be judged and burned in 1000 years at the Second Resurrection. But they are gathered FIRST !! Not the WHEAT !! Now how is the "Church as you see it" RAPTURED up to meet Christ in the air when Jesus clearly stated that the TARES would be gathered first.

    HINT" The Church is not the WHEAT we are already in Heaven, the WHEAT is Israel and they are protected for 1260 Days ON EARTH, thus they grow WITH THE WICKED TARES until the end, whilst the Church is in Heaven. Jesus came only to minister unto the "LOST SHEEP OF ISRAEL" thus Jesus is always speaking about Israel. Some Jews have a part in the Church, but Jesus always spoke about the Jews. Its just a fact. Thus the confusion of many people. Israel is THE WHEAT.

    Of course he did, he allowed Thomas to TOUCH HIM 8 Days later when he forbid Mary from touching him before. When he comes to Rapture us he calls us up unto him.

    As per the 70 weeks I have proven in the post above that the Abomination of Desolation is an end time event. I can tell when a person has intelligence and you have that, but I also know I have had to overcome many falsehoods, one wrong turn can lead us way off course and Satan will not stop trying to deceive us. Its his job, so we must be vigilant and patient.

    I think if you ever get the Rapture right everything else would fall into place. Then the 70th Week becomes clearer right? Then the broken picture of the BEASTS/STATUE/70 Weeks all become clear.

    Here is another instance that I think people get all wrong, its not every Jew, but it is "ALL ISRAEL that is Saved". It sounds oxymoronic, but 2/3 of the Jews will be killed and 1/3 will flee unto the Wilderness but yet ALL ISRAEL will be saved, because God via Isaiah (and Paul quoting him) means that Israel as a Nation will be saved. That happens of course because they REPENT before the 70th week ends, Elijah (one of the two-witnesses) is sent back to turn them back unto God before the terrible Day of the Lord (Malachi 4:5-6) and we see that in Zechariah 12:10 and Zechariah 13:1. Israel REPENTS before the Anti-Christ (Day of the Lord) Conquers Jerusalem. Thus ALL Israel, or Israel as a Nation (SEED) is preserved, just like God promised Abraham.

    So ALL Israel means Israel as an entity is saved !! Thus is not ISRAEL STILL ISRAEL? Many Jews have died since God promised Abraham a heritage. None of them dying has stopped Israel from being Israel, except when God chose to disperse them around the world and see them as Dead Men's Bones. But Israel's seed remained and still remains, to save them all God has to do is to bring their seed into the New Millennium with Jesus, thus all Israel is saved. Jesus rules from Jerusalem.

    I didn't get that until about a year ago.
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2017
  17. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member

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    You have not proved anything I am afraid. You have just repeated the same thing over and over again. I have shown that Matt, Mark and Luke prove that the AOD was the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem. Luke says it was on Jerusalem and Judea, not worldwide. A simple literal reading that would happen before that generation passed.

    The tribulation in Revelation is a separate event and it is on believers. They washed their robes, and made them white, in the blood of the lamb. Only Christians can claim that. John was part of that tribulation, Revelation 1:9 ¶ I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ,
     
  18. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member

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    Daniel 12 is a continuation of Daniel 11. It passes straight from it.
    Daniel 11 is a historic prophecy of the Greek kingdoms from Alexander to 12:1 which is the coming of Christ and the Roman war. Daniel's people who shall be delivered were the believers who fled Jerusalem when they saw Jerusalem surrounded by armies. Unbelieving Jews would not be Daniels people. I have no intention of debating Daniel 12 with you as we are sure to disagree. I will just add that 1290 days was the actual time between the Jews saw the AOD, the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem and the failure of the daily sacrifice, Josephus gives the dates, you can check them. He also says that from the failure of the sacrifice to the final fall was 5 days. 1335 in all.

    There is another understanding of the fulfillment of the 1335 days. H Grattan Guinness. writing in about 1890, said that he believed that the prophecy referred to some diminution of the Turkish power of Jerusalem. ( How he arrived at that, I don't know) but he considered it to refer to 1335 years and that would expire in the year 1917 or 1335 in the Muslim calendar. This was in his book Light for the last days. In 1917 Allenby was given command of the British armies in Palestine. Allenby thought that was a jolly poor show, but another general referred him to Guinness' book and said "You will be in Jerusalem before the end of the year, but don't forget your big guns" and as they departed, the general said, "Oh Allenby don't ride in triumph into Jerusalem, that honour is reserved for someone far greater than you." When Allenby arrived at the gates of Jerusalem he dismounted on led his horse into the city.
    You can find that conversation recorded in full The Guinness Legend by Michelle Guinness, a Jewish lady who also wrote A Child of the Covenant.

    Light for the last days. may well be on the internet. Try the Historicist site.

    Grattan Guinness died in 1910, seven years before the event.
     
  19. Revealing Times

    Revealing Times Well-Known Member

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    Which I take to mean that you are of course wasting my time. Anyone that reads those three passages and still tries to say the Abomination of Desolation is not an END TIME EVENT, must surely be a trickster. Its truly astounding the depths men will go to to prop up their prideful beliefs.

    I am out, I do not continue when the obvious is rejected.
     
  20. David Kent

    David Kent Well-Known Member

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    I thought you would be soon.
    You stayed longer than I expected. Most pre tribbers will turn on their heel and walk away rather than discuss the bible. Kike the JWs they have their stock verses.
     
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