The Atonement

bling

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Only way a sinner can become humble is by a new birth, a new nature. Man naturally isnt subject to God Rom 8:7-8
. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

vs 9 is the only way

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his
Tell me should I believe you or Christ because Christ said: “For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled…” and you say: “Only way a sinner can become humble is by a new birth”? For both to be true everyone would have to experience the “new birth” (this is universalism).

Your attempt at a supporting verse is: Ro. 8: 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. This does not say those who are not pleasing to God (sinners) cannot be humble by a situation.

When Pharaoh let the Jews go, was that not humbling for Pharaoh?
 
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Brightfame52

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bling

Tell me should I believe you or Christ because Christ said: “For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled…” and you say: “Only way a sinner can become humble is by a new birth”? For both to be true everyone would have to experience the “new birth” (this is universalism).

Tell me should I believe you or Christ because Christ said: “For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled…” and you say: “Only way a sinner can become humble is by a new birth”? For both to be true everyone would have to experience the “new birth” (this is universalism).

Your attempt at a supporting verse is: Ro. 8: 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. This does not say those who are not pleasing to God (sinners) cannot be humble by a situation.

When Pharaoh let the Jews go, was that not humbling for Pharaoh?
You should believe whatever the scripture reveals. Scripture reveals man by nature isnt humble, and cant be unto God Rom 8:7-8

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

It says the carnal mind is enmity against God, for its not subject to the law or command of God, and indeed cannot be. The word subject is the greek word hypotassō:


  1. to arrange under, to subordinate
  2. to subject, put in subjection
  3. to subject one's self, obey
  4. to submit to one's control
  5. to yield to one's admonition or advice
  6. to obey, be subject

So how is it possible for the carnal minded, natural man, in the flesh, to humble themselves before God They cant, its not possible. Now God can humble someone, and He does with them He Loves and saves by giving them a new heart in the new birth.
 
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GodsGrace101

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Tell me should I believe you or Christ because Christ said: “For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled…” and you say: “Only way a sinner can become humble is by a new birth”? For both to be true everyone would have to experience the “new birth” (this is universalism).

Your attempt at a supporting verse is: Ro. 8: 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. This does not say those who are not pleasing to God (sinners) cannot be humble by a situation.

When Pharaoh let the Jews go, was that not humbling for Pharaoh?
:swoon:

This is how it feels to speak to @Brightfame52

You post a VERY CLEAR verse to him, and he ignores it and continues on with his rant
and parroting of something or other that he learned.

Maybe one day God will give him ears to hear.

Jesus plainly said we must HUMBLE OURSELVES.
But the reply is that nothing can happen unless we're saved.

So, IOW,
we must become saved FIRST
before we could become saved.
:scratch:
 
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GodsGrace101

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You should believe whatever the scripture reveals. Scripture reveals man by nature isnt humble, and cant be unto God Rom 8:7-8

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

It says the carnal mind is enmity against God, for its not subject to the law or command of God, and indeed cannot be. The word subject is the greek word hypotassō:


  1. to arrange under, to subordinate
  2. to subject, put in subjection
  3. to subject one's self, obey
  4. to submit to one's control
  5. to yield to one's admonition or advice
  6. to obey, be subject

So how is it possible for the carnal minded, natural man, in the flesh, to humble themselves before God They cant, its not possible. Now God can humble someone, and He does with them He Loves and saves by giving them a new heart in the new birth.
Seems to me God LOVES EVERYONE,,,not just those He saves by giving them a new heart....as YOU put it.

John 3:16 FOR GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD.....
THE WORLD.

Genesis 1:31 ALL THAT GOD MADE WAS VERY GOOD.
Would YOU make something you DIDN'T like?

Romans 5:8 GOD SHOWS HIS LOVE FOR US THAT WHILE WE WERE STILL SINNERS HE DIED FOR US.
Yes. While we were still sinners God loved His creation (us) enough to die for us.
 
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bling

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You should believe whatever the scripture reveals. Scripture reveals man by nature isnt humble, and cant be unto God Rom 8:7-8

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

It says the carnal mind is enmity against God, for its not subject to the law or command of God, and indeed cannot be. The word subject is the greek word hypotassō:


  1. to arrange under, to subordinate
  2. to subject, put in subjection
  3. to subject one's self, obey
  4. to submit to one's control
  5. to yield to one's admonition or advice
  6. to obey, be subject

So how is it possible for the carnal minded, natural man, in the flesh, to humble themselves before God They cant, its not possible. Now God can humble someone, and He does with them He Loves and saves by giving them a new heart in the new birth.
Do you see your interpretation of scripture making Christ out to be a liar?
 
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Brightfame52

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Seems to me God LOVES EVERYONE,,,not just those He saves by giving them a new heart....as YOU put it.

John 3:16 FOR GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD.....
THE WORLD.

Genesis 1:31 ALL THAT GOD MADE WAS VERY GOOD.
Would YOU make something you DIDN'T like?

Romans 5:8 GOD SHOWS HIS LOVE FOR US THAT WHILE WE WERE STILL SINNERS HE DIED FOR US.
Yes. While we were still sinners God loved His creation (us) enough to die for us.
I have no problem with those verses. Nevertheless the natural man cant be humble before God, in fact he is totally dead to God.
 
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GodsGrace101

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I have no problem with those verses. Nevertheless the natural man cant be humble before God, in fact he is totally dead to God.
Post some verses that say we are totally dead to God. Totally Depraved. UNABLE to respond to God.

How does a person get saved?
 
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bling

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I have no problem with those verses. Nevertheless the natural man cant be humble before God, in fact he is totally dead to God.
By Christ's definition of "dead", and Christ only uses the very best words to communicate His ideas, as He used "dead" twice in the prodigal son parable a person like the prodigal son could turn to his father and do and think stuff.
 
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Brightfame52

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By Christ's definition of "dead", and Christ only uses the very best words to communicate His ideas, as He used "dead" twice in the prodigal son parable a person like the prodigal son could turn to his father and do and think stuff.
Man naturally is dead to God, dead in and under sin ! Rom 3:9

What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

Eph 2:1

And you hath he quickened, who
were dead in trespasses and sins;

This is such a reality that man must be quickened. Do you know what quickened means ?
 
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Brightfame52

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Its no secret that mans religion appeals to 2 Cor 5:19 as a proof text that the scripture teaches that Christ died for all men without exception, for it reads:

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

The religionist sees the word world here and automatically and carelessly assumes that it means everyone without exception. However the word world here is defined in a limited sense in that it does means:

kósmos (literally, "something ordered") – properly, an "ordered system" (like the universe, creation); the world.

an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, or der.

any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort

Any divinely ordered collection of particulars in the divine scheme of things is a World !


The word particulars is defined:

of or relating to a single or specific person, thing,group, class, occasion, etc., rather than to othersor all; special rather than general:

Now with this in mind, the world of 2 Cor 5:19 is particular in that none of its citizens have their sins imputed to them, which is plainly stated of them here:

"God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them"

Which Act of God constitutes this World as a forgiven world, because we read in another place the consequence of non imputation of sin by God is this:

Rom 4:7-8

7Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

That world of particular individuals in 2 Cor 5:19 is a forgiven world whose sins are covered, and God will not charge them with their sins, not ever !

Now we know this cant apply to all without exception because there are individuals God will remember their sins against them, so they are still being charged with them, here Rev 18:4-5

And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

Now these who shall have their sins remembered by God, cannot be of the World of 2 Cor 5:19, which means and confirms that the World in that scripture supports limited atonement, the reconciled world is limited to certain particulars ! 1
 
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bling

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Man naturally is dead to God, dead in and under sin ! Rom 3:9

What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

Eph 2:1

And you hath he quickened, who
were dead in trespasses and sins;

This is such a reality that man must be quickened. Do you know what quickened means ?
I am not saying the prodigal son while sinning in the foreign land was not dead, since Christ says he was dead. The father will make the son alive (quicken) if the son returns. The prodigal son was "dead in trespasses and sin", but that does not mean the son could do nothing, but what the son could do would be selfish (sinful). To become and do something; selfless, honorable, righteous, holy, or worthy requires a quickening.
The son for selfish (sinful) reasons can humble himself to the point of being willing to accept pure undeserved charity as charity.
What do you see as Christ's definition of "dead in trespasses and sin"?
 
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bling

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Its no secret that mans religion appeals to 2 Cor 5:19 as a proof text that the scripture teaches that Christ died for all men without exception, for it reads:

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

The religionist sees the word world here and automatically and carelessly assumes that it means everyone without exception. However the word world here is defined in a limited sense in that it does means:

kósmos (literally, "something ordered") – properly, an "ordered system" (like the universe, creation); the world.

an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, or der.

any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort

Any divinely ordered collection of particulars in the divine scheme of things is a World !


The word particulars is defined:

of or relating to a single or specific person, thing,group, class, occasion, etc., rather than to othersor all; special rather than general:

Now with this in mind, the world of 2 Cor 5:19 is particular in that none of its citizens have their sins imputed to them, which is plainly stated of them here:

"God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them"

Which Act of God constitutes this World as a forgiven world, because we read in another place the consequence of non imputation of sin by God is this:

Rom 4:7-8

7Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

That world of particular individuals in 2 Cor 5:19 is a forgiven world whose sins are covered, and God will not charge them with their sins, not ever !

Now we know this cant apply to all without exception because there are individuals God will remember their sins against them, so they are still being charged with them, here Rev 18:4-5

And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

Now these who shall have their sins remembered by God, cannot be of the World of 2 Cor 5:19, which means and confirms that the World in that scripture supports limited atonement, the reconciled world is limited to certain particulars ! 1
The truth is not based on one interpretation of one word. World in some places in scripture does not refer to everyone person.
Everything has to be in agreement with the objective, since the objective drives everything. What do you see as man's objective and why that particular command over other commands?
 
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Brightfame52

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I am not saying the prodigal son while sinning in the foreign land was not dead, since Christ says he was dead. The father will make the son alive (quicken) if the son returns.

How does a dead person turn ? Turning is a sign of life, so life must precede the act of turning.
 
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Brightfame52

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The truth is not based on one interpretation of one word. World in some places in scripture does not refer to everyone person.
Everything has to be in agreement with the objective, since the objective drives everything. What do you see as man's objective and why that particular command over other commands?
Do you understand that post ? Lets discuss through it
 
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bling

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Do you understand that post ? Lets discuss through it
I am not having a problem with what you wrote, as long as you understand the same word used other places can have different meanings and we just cannot be sure of the meaning in any one place unless the context domains it.
 
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bling

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How does a dead person turn ? Turning is a sign of life, so life must precede the act of turning.
Christ said that is what the dead prodigal son did. Dead by Jesus' definition is not like total physical lifelessness, the person is still doing stuff.
 
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Brightfame52

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I am not having a problem with what you wrote, as long as you understand the same word used other places can have different meanings and we just cannot be sure of the meaning in any one place unless the context domains it.
Evidently you do have a problem with it, you dont want to discuss through it.
 
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