The Atonement

[zoidar]

Make sense of this for me, then, please:

John 10:15, "I lay down my life for the sheep." John 10:26, "You are not my sheep."

There is actually no need to since it's not a response to my argument.

But for the sake of responding. The question is not really whom Jesus laid down his life for, but for whose sin his sacrifice was a ransom payment.

 

[Dan Perez]

IV LIMITED ATONEMENT OR PARTICULAR REDEMPTION

“…Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many…” Hebrews 9:28

THE SCRIPTURES

Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them. (Gen. 3:21)457

Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all….for the transgression of my people was he stricken….Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. (Isa. 53:4–12)458

456 Trinity Hymnal, Baptist Edition, 1995, Hymn Number 94. 457 Those who adhere to “the law of first mention” concerning any biblical doctrine, must admit that the institution of blood sacrifice and atonement—every sacrifice in redemptive history anticipating and typifying the “Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world”—was made by God, was definitely personal, and completely effectual. 458 Isaiah 53 has been called “The Fifth Gospel”. This prophecy concerning the person and redemptive work of the Lord Jesus Christ presents the atonement as a specific, covenant transaction, made for “all” of God’s people, and effectual in nature. 170

And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. (Matt. 1:21)459

Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. (Matt. 20:28)460

For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. (Matt. 26:28)

For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost. (Luke 19:10)

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)461

And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst...And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:35–40)

I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep...I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. (John 10:11–18)462

459 “His people” emphasizes the covenant context of the redemptive work of our Lord. “Shall save” also implies an actual salvation, not a mere potential salvation if certain conditions are met on the part of the sinner in his own strength. The prep. avpo, denotes separation, implying a separation from sins. 460 This statement clearly implies the covenant nature of our Lord’s vicarious or substitutionary death. Note further the term “ransom” (lu,tron), describing a true and complete redemption. There are five NT terms for “redeem” and “redemption.” All are used with reference to the salvation of sinners, but ajpolutrwvsew" (Rom. 3:24) is the strongest term: 1) a'gora?zw (agorazo), “to acquire or purchase in the marketplace” [avgo,ra] (e.g., 1 Cor. 6:20; Rev. 5:9). 2) e'xagora?zw (exagorazo), “to buy out of [e'k] the marketplace” (e.g., Gal. 3:13; 4:5). 3) peripoiou^mai (peripoioumai), “to keep or save for one’s self, to acquire, gain possession of” (e.g., Acts 20:28; 1 Pet. 2:9). 4) lutro?w, lu/trwsiv (lutroo, lutrosis), “to ransom, redeem, redemption.” (e.g., Mk. 10:45; Tit. 2:14; 1 Pet. 1:18–20; Heb. 9:12). 5) a'polu/trwsiv (apolutrosis), “to redeem or ransom.” With the prep. (a'po?, off, away from), this term emph. the finality and effectiveness of the redemption. 461 Such passages demonstrate that salvation was not the exclusive property of the Jews, but extended to the Gentiles, as implied in the term “world.” Note the particularity in the word “whosoever,” lit: “every single one constantly exercising faith” (pa'" oJ pisteuvwn). 462 The repeated statement that our Lord would lay down his life for his “sheep” emphasizes the covenant nature of his sacrificial death. 171

Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not. And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation; and not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad. Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death. (John 11:50–53)

These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. (John 17:1–2)463

Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. (Acts 20:28)464

Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; to declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. (Rom. 3:24–26)465

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. (Rom. 5:8–9)

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by [in] his life. (Rom. 5:10)

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned....For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ. Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. (Rom. 5:12, 17–19)466

He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea

463 Our Lord prays in the context of the eternal covenant of redemption and grace. 464 “Purchased,” periepoih,sato, aor. actually acquired, gained possession of. 465 The death of Christ was a “propitiation,” i.e., it appeased Divine wrath against sinners. Either this wrath has or has not been appeased. Calvinists maintain the truth that it has truly been appeased for everyone for whom it was intended. Cf. “redemption,” avpolutrw,sewj, effectively and fully and finally redeemed. 466 The passage of Rom. 5:12–19 reveals the covenant nature of the federal headship of the Lord Jesus Christ and the identification of his people with him. There are two groups: “the many” (oi` polloi.) in union with Adam and “the many” (oi` polloi.) in union with Christ. Each group constitutionally partakes of the actions of their respective covenant head. When Christ died, all his people judicially died with him. Cf. 2 Cor. 5:14. 172

rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. (Rom. 8:32–34)467

But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption. (1 Cor. 1:30)468

For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again...And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; to wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation....For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. (2 Cor. 5:14–21)469

Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ, who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father. (Gal. 1:3–4)470

Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree. (Gal. 3:13)471

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace. (Eph. 1:3–7)472

Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; and

467 This statement in the context of v. 28–39 emphasizes the eternal covenant of redemption and grace—the foreknown, predestinated, called, justified and glorified are all the same—one distinct group or covenant people. 468 This blessed state is not merely potential but actual for everyone for whom Christ died. Cf. “redemption,” avpolu,trwsij. 469 V. 14 states that we judge that if one [Christ] died on behalf of the all, then the “all” for whom he died, died with him when he died. This language cannot be considered as merely potential without great distortion or an actual universalism [the salvation of all humanity]. 470 “for” (uJpeVr) implies substitution. This passage also demonstrates the reason for the atonement—not to make men savable, but to actually deliver them from this present evil world. Did our Lord actually and fully fulfill the will of the Father? 471 Either Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law or he has not. Cf. “redeemed,” evxago,rasen. aor. 472 The pronouns refer this passage to believers whose standing in Christ is purely by grace (“made us accepted” is lit: “graced us,” ejcarivtwsen), and who have been actually and fully redeemed (ajpoluvtrwsin). 173

that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby. (Eph. 2:15–16)473

Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; that he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word. (Eph. 5:25–26)

Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: in whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins. (Col. 1:12–14)474

And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight. (Col. 1:21–22)

This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. (1 Tim. 1:15)

Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. (Titus 2:14)475

Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. (Heb. 2:17)

Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. (Heb. 9:12)476

And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. (Heb. 9:15)477

So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. (Heb. 9:28)

Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. (1 Pet. 2:24)

Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you. (1 Pet. 1:18–20)478

473 The purpose of our Lord’s death was to reconcile us to God. Did he fail in or fulfill this redemptive work? What is the statement of Scripture? 474 “Redemption,” avpolu,trwsin. 475 “Redeem,” lutrw,shtai. aor. 476 The Scripture states unequivocally that our Lord obtained eternal redemption for those for whom he died. Cf. “obtained eternal redemption,” aivwni,an lu,trwsin eu`ra,menoj, emph. the eternal finality of the finished work of Christ. 477 “Redemption,” avpolu,trwsin. 478 If our Lord died for all men equally and without exception, and in reality saved no one, except their faith [works] be added to it, how could his blood be said to be “precious”? Cf. “redeemed,” evlutrw,qhte. aor. 174

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit. (1 Pet. 3:18)

And they sung a new song, saying, thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation. (Rev. 5:9)479

Calvinism/Arminianism pg130-133

And Gen 3:21 and what I see in Gen 3:21 is the following .


#1 Since Adam walked with Christ in the garden , Adam walked by SIGHT ,


#2 When they found them self NAKED they clothed them self with FIG LEAVES , is just what people do that are not believers to justify their sin filled life .

#2 In Gen 3:21 it says the Lord DID / ASA and the Hebrew stem is QAL and is in the IMPECTECT TENSE .


#3 The next Hebrew word MAKE /ASA is also QAL and also in the Hebrew IMPERECT TENSE


#4 The last Hebrew word CLOTHED / LABAS , stem is HIPIL and means to declare and the IMPEFECT TENSE means it started and then stopped .


#5 Qal means to know by experience .


#6 I believe that this the FIRST of blood , called ATONEMENT , which later added to the Law


dan p

 

[bling]

Make sense of this for me, then, please:

John 10:15, "I lay down my life for the sheep." John 10:26, "You are not my sheep."

Was there a time when all mature adults were not the Lord's sheep, and some became the Lord's sheep?

 

[bling]

And Gen 3:21 and what I see in Gen 3:21 is the following .


#1 Since Adam walked with Christ in the garden , Adam walked by SIGHT ,


#2 When they found them self NAKED they clothed them self with FIG LEAVES , is just what people do that are not believers to justify their sin filled life .

#2 In Gen 3:21 it says the Lord DID / ASA and the Hebrew stem is QAL and is in the IMPECTECT TENSE .


#3 The next Hebrew word MAKE /ASA is also QAL and also in the Hebrew IMPERECT TENSE


#4 The last Hebrew word CLOTHED / LABAS , stem is HIPIL and means to declare and the IMPEFECT TENSE means it started and then stopped .


#5 Qal means to know by experience .


#6 I believe that this the FIRST of blood , called ATONEMENT , which later added to the Law


dan p

This does not seem to be the definition for atonement established in Lev. 4 and 5, so what is your definition?

 

[DialecticSkeptic]

There is actually no need to since it's not a response to my argument.

But for the sake of responding: The question is not really whom Jesus laid down his life for, but for whose sin his sacrifice was a ransom payment.

It actually is a response to your argument. With respect to the doctrine of limited atonement, you said that "nowhere in the whole Bible does it say that Jesus didn't die for someone's sin." Those who affirm the doctrine of limited atonement understand Christ dying for someone's sin, laying down his life for them, and his atoning sacrifice all refer to the same thing. And in this context the Bible does say there are some for whom Jesus didn't die.

If you want to introduce a different doctrine now and talk about a ransom theory of atonement—which is how it sounded to me—I will have to respectfully bow out because I have no interest in that.

 

[DialecticSkeptic]

Was there a time when all mature adults were not the Lord's sheep, and some became the Lord's sheep?

Not on my view, which holds that "sheep" is a metaphorical reference to the elect. So, your question strikes me as asking, "Was there a time when all mature adults were not God's elect, and some became his elect?" Answer: No.

Observe what Jesus said in verse 26: "You do not believe because you are not my sheep" (John 10:26). Not to belabor the point but notice that he didn't say, "You are not my sheep because you do not believe." If he had, one could be forgiven for thinking that a person can become his sheep (by believing). But, as Christ revealed here, being one of his sheep results in becoming a believer.

 

[zoidar]

It actually is a response to your argument. With respect to the doctrine of limited atonement, you said that "nowhere in the whole Bible does it say that Jesus didn't die for someone's sin." Those who affirm the doctrine of limited atonement understand Christ dying for someone's sin, laying down his life for them, and his atoning sacrifice all refer to the same thing. And in this context the Bible does say there are some for whom Jesus didn't die.

If you want to introduce a different doctrine now and talk about a ransom theory of atonement—which is how it sounded to me—I will have to respectfully bow out because I have no interest in that.

I agree that it says Jesus died for his sheep. But this is altogether a different thing than saying he didn't die for someone, since it's not explaining if anyone and everyone can become a sheep or not for an example.

No, I'm not here to discuss a ransom theory of atonement and I don't think I'm here to introduce another theory of atonement either. I guess you mean other than Penal Substitution? Anyhow whom atonement was made for and whom Jesus gave his life for doesn't necessarily need to be the same ones, does it? I buy a car for my mom, but it may be used by the whole family etc. This is true regardless which view of atonement you hold.

Maybe I should have been more clear and said: The Bible doesn't say anywhere that Jesus didn't make atonement for someone's sins. This is fact.

 

[bling]

Not on my view, which holds that "sheep" is a metaphorical reference to the elect. So, your question strikes me as asking, "Was there a time when all mature adults were not God's elect, and some became his elect?" Answer: No.

Observe what Jesus said in verse 26: "You do not believe because you are not my sheep" (John 10:26). Not to belabor the point but notice that he didn't say, "You are not my sheep because you do not believe." If he had, one could be forgiven for thinking that a person can become his sheep (by believing). But, as Christ revealed here, being one of his sheep results in becoming a believer.

The “elect” could be the Jesus’ sheep, but the question is how can the lost sheep of this world become Christ’s sheep?

If you are saying some humans prior to birth were given the status of being Jesus’ sheep and the rest therefore are hell bound no matter what they do, then why create people distant only to go to hell?

Our life here on earth has no objective and God created the problem.

John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

Do elect (Christ’s sheep) from birth believe in Christ and thus never are condemned?

We agree that all elect will be saved, but differ on how one becomes the elect.

If their “election” is not the result of their humbly accept pure undeserved charity as charity while living on earth, then there is no reason for people to spend time on earth.

Mark 6: 32 So they went away by themselves in a boat to a solitary place. 33 But many who saw them leaving recognized them and ran on foot from all the towns and got there ahead of them. 34 When Jesus landed and saw a large crowd, he had compassion on them, because they were like sheep without a shepherd. So he began teaching them many things.

This is stating that there were people like sheep without a shepherd and Jesus presented Himself as their shepherd, but does that not suggest some sheep of Jesus were for a time without Him as their shepherd?

Ez. 34: 30 Then they will know that I, the Lord their God, am with them and that they, the Israelites, are my people, declares the Sovereign Lord. 31 You are my sheep, the sheep of my pasture, and I am your God, declares the Sovereign Lord.’”

This did not happen because the people did not obey so we have:

Jer. 18: 9 And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, 10 and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it.

People, God says are His sheep can turn to evil and fall away, so were they the elect?

 

[Brightfame52]

iconoclast pink 1

1. If ALL the sins of ALL men were laid upon Christ, then the sin of unbelief was too. That unbelief is a sin is clear from the fact that in 1 John 3:23 we read, "And this is His commandment, That we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ." Refusal to believe in Christ is, therefore, an act of flagrant disobedience, rebellion against the Most High. But if all the sins of all men were laid upon Christ (as it is now asserted), then He also endured the penalty for the Christ-rejector's unbelief. If this be so, then Universalism is true. But it is not so. The very advocates of the view we are now refuting would not affirm it. And therein may be seen the inconsistency and untenableness of their teaching. For if unbelief is a sin and Christ did not suffer the penalty of it, then all sin was not laid upon Christ. Thus there are only two alternatives: a strictly limited Atonement, availing only for believers; or an unlimited Atonement which effectually secures the salvation of the entire human race.

The sin of unbelief is paid for in the atonement of Christ or else God would not have mercy on it as He does. The elect remnant whom God enclosed in unbelief; God will show them mercy Rom 11:32

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

And God doesnt bestow mercy apart from Justice being satisfied, He doesn't show mercy at the expense of Justice, and that justice satisfied came through the satisfaction Christ provided to Gods Justice for the sins of the Sheep.

Also Paul experienced this mercy on account of his unbelief 1 Tim 1:13

13 who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

Again he obtained mercy but not at the expense of Gods Justice being satisfied for his sins, in that Paul was of the election of Grace.

Just think, if Christ didnt die for the sin of unbelief, how could anyone be saved through Christ, seeing everyone enters into this life as a unbeliever by nature. And if Christ didnt die for it, we must perish in unbelief. So everyone who comes into faith in Christ, its evident that Christ died for them and they received mercy for their unbelief.

 

[Brightfame52]

3. If ALL the sins of ALL men were laid upon Christ, how could He possibly say to certain ones, "Ye shall seek Me, and shall die in your sins?" (John 8:21) Christ was here addressing the Pharisees. The time was only a short while before His death. He was speaking, therefore, of that which lay on the other side of His crucifixion and resurrection. This is seen from the fact that He first said, "I go My way, and ye shall seek Me." Most evidently was He referring to His return to the Father. And yet He expressly declared that after His departure from this world, these men would "seek" Him (but in vain), and they should die in their sins. Their death would be subsequent to His, and their death should be in sins. The striking thing is, that these awful words were uttered, on this same occasion, no less than three times. For in John 8:24 we read, "I said therefore unto you, That ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am, ye shall die in your sins." Note, carefully "die," not in your sin, but "in your sins." Here, then, is another indubitable proof that Christ did not bear all the sins of all men.

Only those who Christ bare their sins in His own Body on the Tree 1 Pet 2:24 will be given the Gift of believing on His Name Phil 1:29, but if we never are given that Gift, it means we were not of His Sheep that He died for Jn 10:26, hence there is no other alternative but to die in our sins in unbelief Jn 8:24

 

[Brightfame52]

There is actually no need to since it's not a response to my argument.

But for the sake of responding. The question is not really whom Jesus laid down his life for, but for whose sin his sacrifice was a ransom payment.

The same, the Sheep. Jesus set the foundation with that which He clearly specified. Jn 10:11,15. Christ laying down His Life and giving His life a ransom are one and the same.

 

[zoidar]

The same, the Sheep. Jesus set the foundation with that which He clearly specified. Jn 10:11,15. Christ laying down His Life and giving His life a ransom are one and the same.

Can you prove atonement was not made for everyone in the world? Even better, can you prove atonement wasn't made for someone? That Jesus laid down his life for his sheep isn't proving that. If I buy a boat for the father, the boat is provided to the whole family. Even the whole family is onboard they have no use of the boat if only the father go off in the promised land.

 

[Brightfame52]

Can you prove atonement was not made for everyone in the world? Even better, can you prove atonement wasn't made for someone? That Jesus laid down his life for his sheep isn't proving that. If I buy a boat for the father, the boat is provided to the whole family. Even the whole family is onboard they have no use of the boat if only the father go off in the promised land.

Can I prove it to you ? Probably not. I recommend you read some good articles on limited atonement where some able bible teachers can give you scripture to build the case for it. If you done believe what Jesus stated specifically about who He died for, no need in me trying to prove it. You will just have to wait till judgment day.

 

[zoidar]

Can I prove it to you ? Probably not. I recommend you read some good articles on limited atonement where some able bible teachers can give you scripture to build the case for it. If you done believe what Jesus stated specifically about who He died for, no need in me trying to prove it. You will just have to wait till judgment day.

Why would I look for a teacher that makes a case for something I know is wrong? Of course I believe what Jesus "specifically" stated, did I ever say I didn't? Of course Jesus laid down his life for his sheep. That is not the question. What we don't agree on is what that means.

If you want to discuss this more we can. Otherwise I will just wish you a blessed day.

 

[Brightfame52]

Why would I look for a teacher that makes a case for something I know is wrong? Of course I believe what Jesus "specifically" stated, did I ever say I didn't? Of course Jesus laid down his life for his sheep. That is not the question. What we don't agree on is what that means.

If you want to discuss this more we can. Otherwise I will just wish you a blessed day.

Now since you don't believe the truth of limited effectual atonement then you must deny the saving efficacy of the death of Christ which is horrible and dishonoring to Jesus Christ! You believe that there are sinners Christ died for their sins, who nevertheless shall die in their sins in unbelief.

 

[zoidar]

Now since you don't believe the truth of limited effectual atonement then you must deny the saving efficacy of the death of Christ which is horrible and dishonoring to Jesus Christ! You believe that there are sinners Christ died for their sins, who nevertheless shall die in their sins in unbelief.

Not sure what you are talking about. Anyhow I let the Bible judge if I'm dishonoring to Christ or not.

 

[Brightfame52]

Not sure what you are talking about. Anyhow I let the Bible judge if I'm dishonoring to Christ or not.

You know what Im talking about.

 

[zoidar]

You know what Im talking about.

Nevertheless. My two argument stands:

1. There is nowhere in the Bible where it says Jesus didn't make atonement for someone's sin.

2. How could Jesus have won victory over satan without conquering all sin. If Jesus didn't die for all sin, then wasn't satan and his power only partly defeated?

 

[Brightfame52]

Nevertheless. My two argument stands:

1. There is nowhere in the Bible where it says Jesus didn't make atonement for someone's sin.

2. How could Jesus have won victory over satan without conquering all sin. If Jesus didn't die for all sin, then wasn't satan and his power only partly defeated?

You between a rock and a hard place because if you don't believe in limited atonement you don't believe in the saving efficacy of the blood of Christ, not good friend.

 

[zoidar]

You between a rock and a hard place because if you don't believe in limited atonement you don't believe in the saving efficacy of the blood of Christ, not good friend.

Firstly, the historical Christian belief has always been unlimited atonement. Secondly I don't understand what you mean by saying I don't believe in the saving efficacy of the blood of Christ, so I can't respond to that.