The Atheist could be wrong for many good reasons

[Archaeopteryx]

I think I get it now...

I couldn't figure out why this thread seemed to attract so many embittered christians that we don't normally find down here in the philosophy section. It's the thread title...

At a glance it looks like it's going to offer them a bunch of effective ammunition for arguing with atheists. They come to the thread expecting that, then get disappointed with the content realizing it isn't going to deliver the goods lol.

That's why the thread is getting bogged down with these empty preachy posts that don't add anything to the discussion. They're just trying to get their shots in before they return to the "safe" sections of the site.

That seems to be the case.

 

[Crowns&Laurels]

I have no interest in protecting the reputation of Islam.

I dislike Islam more than I dislike Christianity.

What is so wrong about the Christ?
You see, Islam brings Jesus down to being a mere prophet. If you open up a bible, you'll notice that it's ridiculous to bring him to being merely a man. The New Testament was written by men who actually walked or knew him.

 

[lupusFati]

What is so wrong about the Christ?
You see, Islam brings Jesus down to being a mere prophet. If you open up a bible, you'll notice that it's ridiculous to bring him to being merely a man.

That explains why so many Christians don't follow what Christ actually said. They merely "open" their bible instead of study it.

Thanks for the explanation.

 

[Skavau]

What is so wrong about the Christ?
You see, Islam brings Jesus down to being a mere prophet. If you open up a bible, you'll notice that it's ridiculous to bring him to being merely a man. The New Testament was written by men who actually walked or knew him.

I don't like the moral preachments of Christianity in general. The idea of vicarious redemption, original sin, torture/torment in hell is repellent to me.

Islam is worse with all of those things though.

 

[Crowns&Laurels]

I don't like the moral preachments of Christianity in general. The idea of vicarious redemption, original sin, torture/torment in hell is repellent to me.

Islam is worse with all of those things though.

The testimonies are supposed to be offensive. It is their intent, actually. It's supposed to make you come to terms with your disposition as a fallible being.

Islam is like ancient Judaism. If you look in the book of Leviticus or Deuteronomy, it isn't too different than Islamic Shariah Law.

And
Hell is a place that logically must exist to distinguish the reward of the righteous and the consequence of the wicked. You are thinking about 'Classical Hell' which is fire and brimstone- the fact of the matter is that much of Christianity doesn't go in for that anymore. It's more or less a place of punishment commensurate to your own sins.

 

[Skavau]

The testimonies are supposed to be offensive. It is their intent, actually. It's supposed to make you come to terms with your disposition as a fallible being.

Islam is like ancient Judaism. If you look in the book of Leviticus or Deuteronomy, it isn't too different than Islamic Shariah Law.

The entire premise of someone dying for me and holding me responsible for the actions of my forefathers is objectionable.

Hell is a place that logically must exist to distinguish the reward of the righteous and the consequence of the wicked. You are thinking about 'Classical Hell' which is fire and brimstone- the fact of the matter is that much of Christianity doesn't go in for that anymore. It's more or less a place of punishment commensurate to your own sins.

Whether or not it is fire and brimstone does not matter. It is torture be it metaphysical or literal. I don't accept the premise that a single infraction, a single fault deserves eternal torture/torment.

 

[Crowns&Laurels]

The entire premise of someone dying for me and holding me responsible for the actions of my forefathers is objectionable.

Christ unchained you from the Law by being beaten and crucified as the perfect Lamb of God.
What more extraordinary, mighty God could you ask for?

This is what I don't get about atheists.

Whether or not it is fire and brimstone does not matter. It is torture be it metaphysical or literal. I don't accept the premise that a single infraction, a single fault deserves eternal torture/torment.

It does matter, because you simply live in the eternity of your on undoing, which is perfect justice. I agree that the whole fire and brimstone thing is sadistic- honestly, I don't know what was going through the minds of Christians to think that was the case other than that the papacy was putting fear into others.

Such is the reason for the Protestant Reformation. Well, not THE reason, but the expulsion of that tyranny.

 

[Skavau]

Christ unchained you from the Law by being beaten and crucified as the perfect Lamb of God.
What more extraordinary, mighty God could you ask for?

God inflicts a broken world on us, inflicts us with the propensity to sin, knows that we will all sin and then punishes us for the temerity of acting exactly as he expects us to. The only way out is to believe a certain way. Belief is not a choice. You believe in what you are convinced by. God's system directly causes the permanent torment of people whose only real crime was that they did not know any better or believed a false doctrine.

Born sick, commanded to be well.

It does matter, because you simply live in the eternity of your on undoing, which is perfect justice.

How is that perfect justice? What can I do, over an average lifespan that is so heinous, so awful that would command eternal torment?

I agree that the whole fire and brimstone thing is sadistic- honestly, I don't know what was going through the minds of Christians to think that was the case other than that the papacy was putting fear into others.

Such is the reason for the Protestant Reformation. Well, not THE reason, but the expulsion of that tyranny.

The method does not matter - it is the imposition of suffering, whatever form it takes that is objectionable.

 

[Crowns&Laurels]

Belief is not a choice. You believe in what you are convinced by. God's system directly causes the permanent torment of people whose only real crime was that they did not know any better or believed a false doctrine.

All you have to do is believe in God. If you can't do that, then you have simply become the agent of a fallen angel.
You can interpret that any way you want- the Apostle Paul states that men who do not hold to the Creator are without excuse.

Born sick, commanded to be well.

Mankind is sick. It is why we live the way we do.

How is that perfect justice? What can I do, over an average lifespan that is so heinous, so awful that would command eternal torment?

You reap what you sow.
This is a central tenant of holy belief. The souls of men are immortal- you are punished by the same sin you committed. It's about as exact as it gets- unconscious death is not an option.

 

[Skavau]

All you have to do is believe in God. If you can't do that, then you have simply become the agent of a fallen angel.
You can interpret that any way you want- the Apostle Paul states that men who do not hold to the Creator are without excuse.

Belief is not a choice. A Muslim cannot just choose to become a Christian. From their perspective they have no reason to preference Christianity.

Mankind is sick. It is why we live the way we do.

That we are 'sick' has nothing to do with us. We were born with the disposition to do so.

I also have no objection to pre-marital sex, homosexuality, masturbation etc. I have no disposition against them. Those are things widely regarded as sins by many Christians. I don't regard them as sinful.

You reap what you sow.
This is a central tenant of holy belief. The souls of men are immortal- you are punished by the same sin you committed. It's about as exact as it gets- unconscious death is not an option.

I'll try again. How is that perfect justice? Whatever sin I could commit could never last for eternity. Eternal punishment for a finite crime is by definition infinitely disproportionate.

 

[Crowns&Laurels]

Belief is not a choice. A Muslim cannot just choose to become a Christian. From their perspective they have no reason to preference Christianity.

This part is tricky, because Christians differ on the matter of free will vs predestination.
I can only tell you what I believe.

Predestination is forensically a beautiful thing, because even though everyone's fate is ultimately predestined, it is still your fault if you choose to deny the hand Jesus has given out to rescue you from the original fate of humanity. Mankind is a man hanging on a cliff, with no other foothold. All you have is God's hand reaching out to you.

 

[Skavau]

This part is tricky, because Christians differ on the matter of free will vs predestination.
I can only tell you what I believe.

Predestination is forensically a beautiful thing, because even though everyone's fate is ultimately predestined, it is still your fault if you choose to deny the hand Jesus has given out to rescue you from the original fate of humanity. Mankind is a man hanging on a cliff, with no other foothold. All you have is God's hand reaching out to you.

My position is not even based on a discussion between free-will and predestination.

It is based on the observation that people believe in and follow what they are convinced by. A Muslim has no reason to endorse Christianity. They believe Islam is true. A Sikh believes Sikhism is true. To them there is no 'God's hand' (at least from Christianity) reaching out to them. To an Atheist there is no God's hand at all.

 

[Eudaimonist]

What is so wrong about the Christ?

Christ doesn't exist. I see that as a significant flaw.

You see, Islam brings Jesus down to being a mere prophet.

That's an improvement, actually. I'm not saying that this makes me approve of Islam in general.

The New Testament was written by men who actually walked or knew him.

Historians generally disagree, even when they think that Jesus was an actual human being.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Archaeopteryx]

All you have to do is believe in God. If you can't do that, then you have simply become the agent of a fallen angel.
You can interpret that any way you want- the Apostle Paul states that men who do not hold to the Creator are without excuse.

The Quran says that you are also without excuse for not accepting the doctrines of Islam.

You reap what you sow.
This is a central tenant of holy belief. The souls of men are immortal- you are punished by the same sin you committed. It's about as exact as it gets- unconscious death is not an option.

Actually, you are only punished for not assenting to the salvific doctrines.

 

[Crowns&Laurels]

The Quran says that you are also without excuse for not accepting the doctrines of Islam.

Well Paul beats Mohammad by several hundred years, so..

Actually, you are only punished for not assenting to the salvific doctrines.

Not necessarily. There are several different doctrines of 'faith alone' and then there is the Catholic 'faith and works'. Then there's simply a truth between the lines that faith is an augmentation of works which are generally not sufficient by a man's virtue alone.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Well Paul beats Mohammad by several hundred years, so..

And Judaism precedes Christianity by how many years?

 

[Crowns&Laurels]

And Judaism precedes Christianity by how many years?

Jesus is the descendant of David and the Jewish Messiah, foretold in Jewish prophesy and taught by Jewish apostles, who were followed by thousands of Jews.

You're just making a false, and rather weak, comparison.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Jesus is the descendant of David and the Jewish Messiah, foretold in Jewish prophesy and taught by Jewish apostles, who were followed by thousands of Jews.

You're just making a false, and rather weak, comparison.

How many other religions preceded Christianity?

 

[Crowns&Laurels]

How many other religions preceded Christianity?

How many of those religions still exist?

 

[GoldenBoy89]

Mankind is sick.

By design.