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The Assumption of Mary

laconicstudent

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Mary is not Theotokos and it doers not reflect her.

Yes, she is. Jesus is God, Mary is His mother. I find it disturbing how some people here flirt with denying Christ's divinity. I think Metropolitan Kallistos of Diokleia puts it aptly when he says "When people refuse to honor Mary, only too often it is because they do not believe in the Incarnation".

Nor is it the Church. There is no Church in Revelation after chapter 4. Revelation 12 is speaking of Israel being the woman.

Israel is the Church now. And clearly there is a Church after Revelation 4 because it is Christ's bride at the conclusion of the book, and we see it being persecuted in chapter 12.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Mary is not Theotokos and it doers not reflect her.

Nor is it the Church. There is no Church in Revelation after chapter 4. Revelation 12 is speaking of Israel being the woman.

The problem with apocalyptic writings such as those of St. John and even Daniel is that there is a lot of immagery used to discribe things that I believe are beyond our comprehension. Is John speaking about Israel? could be. Is he speaking about the Church? Could be. Is he talking about Mary. Could be also.

If one truly teaches and believes in Sola Scriptura as I believe that one should; the only interperative standard that can be applied to Scripture is that Scripture interperets Scripture. If we apply this standard to that text, then, from the rest of Scripture all three seem to fit.

Is John talking about all three? All I can say is if the shoe fits...

Regarding the Theotokos; again from Scripture as compiled by the Early Church Fathers, we have the second article of the Nicene Creed:

And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11:17)
the Son of God, (Mathew 14:33; 16:16)
the Only-Begotten, (John 1:18; 3:16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1:2)
Light of Light; (Psalm 27:1; John 8:12; Matthew 17:2,5)
True God of True God; (John 17:1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1:18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10:30)
by whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1:1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1Timothy 2:4-5)
came down from Heaven, (John 6:33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, (Luke 1:35)
and became man. (John 1:14)

These ageless truths, to which we all agree to since we are posting in a Christian area of CF, state otherwise. Our Lord Jesus Christ was indeed born of Mary, and since our Lord's human and divine nature are inseperable, Mary is the mother of God the Son. One of the names that Scripture gives to our Lord Jesus is Emanuel (God with us); how did this come about? Scripture in the first part of the Second Article of the Creed tells us.

Now, if your personal theology is at odds with this consept, and you believe that His Divine and human natures do not coexist, then you may be posting in the wrong forum. The he rules here do state that members posting in these forums must accept the CF statement of faith, which just happens to be the Nicene Creed, a portion of which I quoted above.

Addendum: It is your choice to call Mary what you will; however the "proof text" that Mary is the Mother of our Lord, is the Holy Word of God.
 
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alphonsus12

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Proper study will show that Revelation 12 is not speaking about Mary... it is speaking of Israel.

From Warren Wiersbe's Expository Outlines on the New Testament:


There is one flaw with this argument:
Rev 12:5
5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.

Israel did not give birth to the One who rules the nations. Mary did. He is descended from the royal line of Israel as you point out, but they did not give birth to Him.
The Bible was not written in a vacuum, you cannot look solely therein to find the meaning of difficult passages. This is why in 1 Peter 1:20 Peter warns us that no scripture is a matter of personal interpretation. Where then do we turn to discern difficult meanings? Paul tells us in 1 Tim 3:15 that the Church is the "pillar and foundation of the truth." So if you look back at what was taught by the Church concerning difficult topics, for over 1000 years it was consistent. If you look to those who wrote at the same time, or shortly after the writers of the New Testament, we can find those traditions that Paul speaks of in 2 Thess 2:15, that were handed down by word of mouth or in letter (for not all of Paul's letters are contained in Scripture, but are authoritative, see Col 4:16). God bless.
 
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S

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In 2 Chronicles 15:2, we read that God was with Asa. That must mean that Asa's mother must be the mother of God.

Because I am His, God is with me, so my mother (whose name is Anna) must be the mother of God.

My wife also has God with her, so her mother (whose name is Ida) must be the mother of God.

That is where your logic concerning Mary leads.

Mary gave birth to Christ's humanity, not His divinity. The Son of God was with God in the beginning, so Mary cannot be the mother of God. Christ's divinity did not need to be born, it already existed before the world began. How can Mary be the mother of something that existed thousands of years before she was even born herself?

I do believe in the Incarnation. I preach it. Scripture says God sent His Son. This reveals that His Son existed prior to the virgin birth.

There is no flaw in my theology. It is in agreement with the Word of God.
 
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There is one flaw with this argument:
Rev 12:5
5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.

Israel did not give birth to the One who rules the nations. Mary did. He is descended from the royal line of Israel as you point out, but they did not give birth to Him.
The Bible was not written in a vacuum, you cannot look solely therein to find the meaning of difficult passages. This is why in 1 Peter 1:20 Peter warns us that no scripture is a matter of personal interpretation. Where then do we turn to discern difficult meanings? Paul tells us in 1 Tim 3:15 that the Church is the "pillar and foundation of the truth." So if you look back at what was taught by the Church concerning difficult topics, for over 1000 years it was consistent. If you look to those who wrote at the same time, or shortly after the writers of the New Testament, we can find those traditions that Paul speaks of in 2 Thess 2:15, that were handed down by word of mouth or in letter (for not all of Paul's letters are contained in Scripture, but are authoritative, see Col 4:16). God bless.
Jesus was born of a mother under the law. So scripture identifies this. Jesus was born an isrealite.
 
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Sarcalogos Deus

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In 2 Chronicles 15:2, we read that God was with Asa. That must mean that Asa's mother must be the mother of God.

Because I am His, God is with me, so my mother (whose name is Anna) must be the mother of God.

My wife also has God with her, so her mother (whose name is Ida) must be the mother of God.

That is where your logic concerning Mary leads.

Mary gave birth to Christ's humanity, not His divinity. The Son of God was with God in the beginning, so Mary cannot be the mother of God. Christ's divinity did not need to be born, it already existed before the world began. How can Mary be the mother of something that existed thousands of years before she was even born herself?

I do believe in the Incarnation. I preach it. Scripture says God sent His Son. This reveals that His Son existed prior to the virgin birth.

There is no flaw in my theology. It is in agreement with the Word of God.

Wait a second, are you saying that Christ received his divinity after he was born? As for your other analogies they don't really fit since none of us other than Christ was God incarnate.
 
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sheina

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From the article "When God Became Man" by Dr. Henry M. Morris*

How Could the Creator Become Man?

Since "by Him [that is by Christ, the Word of God] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth" (Colossians 1:16), He must have created the very body in which He would dwell when He "was made flesh." This body, however, could not be a body produced by the normal process of human reproduction, for it must be a body unmarred either by inherent sin spiritually or by inherited genetic defects physically or mentally.

It would necessarily have to be a perfect body, a body like that of the first man He had created long ago in the beautiful garden of Eden. He would, in fact, come to be called "the last Adam" (I Corinthians 15:45), since there would never be another man created as that "first Adam" had been.

There would be one important difference, however. The first Adam was created and made as a full-grown man, but the second must be "in all things . . . made like unto His brethren" (Hebrews 2:17). From conception to death, He must be "in all points . . . like as we are, yet without sin" (Hebrews 4:15). In particular, His blood must be "precious blood . . . as of a lamb without blemish and without spot" (I Peter 1:19), for that blood must be "offered . . . without spot to God" (Hebrews 9:14).

Thus the body of the second Adam must be formed directly by God and placed in a virgin's womb. This had been the very first promise made after the first Adam brought sin and death into the world. Speaking of "the woman, and . . . her seed," God said that He "shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise His heel" (Genesis 3:15). This prophecy was addressed to Satan, whose lie had elicited Eve's sin. This wonderful body would not grow from a man's seed, as in every other human birth, nor would it grow from a woman's egg, for in either case a sin-carrying and mutation-carrying embryo would necessarily result. It must instead be a seed specially formed by the Creator Himself, then planted in the virgin's womb, where it forthwith would become His "tabernacle" for thirty-three years as He lived on His planet Earth among those He had come to save.

"Lo, I come," He would later promise through David (Psalm 40:7). Through Isaiah He said: "(The) virgin shall conceive, and bear a Son," and that babe would also be "the mighty God, the everlasting Father" (Isaiah 7:14; 9:6). Still later, another great prophet could anticipate that "The LORD hath created a new thing in the earth, a woman shall compass a man" (Jeremiah 31:22).

Note that the "new thing" in the chosen woman must be "created." When the time came the angel assured young Mary that "The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God" (Luke 1:35).

Then, "when He cometh into the world, He saith, . . . a body hast thou prepared me" (Hebrews 10:5). Most significantly, He used the same word "prepared" (Greek, katartizo), which the writer of Hebrews also then would use when he testified that "the worlds were framed by the Word of God" (Hebrews 11:3), recognizing that the same living Word who had framed the worlds had also framed His own human body! And in that tiny cell in Mary's womb resided all the information not only for His own growth into manhood, but also for the creation, preservation, and redemption of the whole creation. It was His by right of creation and soon would be doubly His by right of redemption.

When God Became Man

*Dr. Henry M. Morris (1918-2006) was Founder and President Emeritus of ICR.
 
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Slaol121

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Mary gave birth to Christ's humanity, not His divinity.

:amen:

The Son of God was with God in the beginning, so Mary cannot be the mother of God.

The Council of Ephesus in 431 was responsible for declaring that Mary was the "Mother of God". They did this to combat the heretical view that Jesus was born a man, and then received his divinity later in life. By declaring that Mary was the "Mother of God", they were saying that Mary gave birth to a baby that was 100% God and 100% man.

Unfortunately, certain Christian traditions have expanded this definition of "Mother of God" into a quasi-pagan "Mother worship" - a notion that is not biblical.

YouTube - ON THIS DAY O' BEAUTIFUL MOTHER
 
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sheina

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Galatians 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

It was the body that was made in the womb, not the divinity. Christ always had His divinity, for He was with the Father from the beginning.
Amen! Jesus Christ ETERNALLY existed as the Son of God before Mary was born, therefore, it is impossible for her (or any other woman) to be the "Mother of God"

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Hebrews 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
 
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Sarcalogos Deus

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Galatians 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

It was the body that was made in the womb, not the divinity. Christ always had His divinity, for He was with the Father from the beginning.

We don't claim that His divinity was made in the womb. However both the divine and human natures of Christ were together in Mary's womb.

Amen! Jesus Christ ETERNALLY existed as the Son of God before Mary was born, therefore, it is impossible for her (or any other woman) to be the "Mother of God"

Except for the fact that Mary,you know, gave birth to God incarnate in the flesh. We're not claiming that Mary created Christ's divinity, that's not what the title means.
 
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laconicstudent

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Of course, all this denial of Christ's divinity was refuted about 1,500 years ago at the Third Ecumenical Council, at which Nestorius (who would agree with some people here about the Theotokos) was cast out, condemned as a heretic.
 
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sheina

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Of course, all this denial of Christ's divinity was refuted about 1,500 years ago at the Third Ecumenical Council, at which Nestorius (who would agree with some people here about the Theotokos) was cast out, condemned as a heretic.
Where did anybody deny the deity of Christ? Scripture NEVER calls Mary the Mother of God. Mary did not give birth to Christ's deity.
 
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Sarcalogos Deus

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Where did anybody deny the deity of Christ? Scripture NEVER calls Mary the Mother of God. Mary did not give birth to Christ's deity.

Okay, So are you or are you not claiming that Christ received His divinity after he was born? I really would like to nail down what exactly you're trying to say here.
 
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sheina

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Okay, So are you or are you not claiming that Christ received His divinity after he was born? I really would like to nail down what exactly you're trying to say here.
The Lord Jesus Christ is the Word become flesh (John 1:1,14). He has always been ETERNALLY (meaning His deity as the only Begotten Son of God) and has NO beginning.....He always existed. Mary did not give birth to His deity. Please read my post on "When God Became A Man". The full explanation is in that post. Christ didn't "receive" His deity/divintiy...He always had it...and Mary did not give birth to it.
 
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laconicstudent

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Where did anybody deny the deity of Christ?

Everyone who is saying Jesus isn't God by saying Mary is not Mother of God.

Scripture NEVER calls Mary the Mother of God.

No, because such a statement would be inane and redundant when we know Jesus is God.

Mary did not give birth to Christ's deity.

Yes, she did.


"If anyone shall after the [hypostatic] union divide the hypostases in the one Christ, joining them by that connexion alone, which happens according to worthiness, or even authority and power, and not rather by a coming together (συνόδῳ), which is made by natural union (ἕνωσιν φυσικὴν): let him be anathema." ---Third Ecumenical Council
 
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S

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Everyone who is saying Jesus isn't God by saying Mary is not Mother of God.



No, because such a statement would be inane and redundant when we know Jesus is God.



Yes, she did.


"If anyone shall after the [hypostatic] union divide the hypostases in the one Christ, joining them by that connexion alone, which happens according to worthiness, or even authority and power, and not rather by a coming together (συνόδῳ), which is made by natural union (ἕνωσιν φυσικὴν): let him be anathema." ---Third Ecumenical Council
The Third Ecumenical Council can call us anathema all you wish. The Bible proves their claim untrue.
 
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