The Assumption of Mary

[sheina]

I also agree. For instance, prayers to saints and/or to Mary, the immaculate conception of Mary, transubstantiation, infant baptism, indulgences, and papal authority. All of these beliefs are not biblical and should be outright rejected. There are many other Roman Catholic teachings which should also be rejected. These include the teaching on salvation, assurance of salvation, good works, baptism, prayer, priesthood, and sacraments. We are commanded to test everything against the Scriptures (1 Thessalonians 5:21).

Amen!

 

[Thekla]

I also agree. For instance, prayers to saints and/or to Mary, the immaculate conception of Mary, transubstantiation, infant baptism, indulgences, and papal authority. All of these beliefs are not biblical and should be outright rejected. There are many other Roman Catholic teachings which should also be rejected. These include the teaching on salvation, assurance of salvation, good works, baptism, prayer, priesthood, and sacraments. We are commanded to test everything against the Scriptures (1 Thessalonians 5:21).

Not quite: entire households were indeed baptised per the record of Scripture.

 

[DiligentlySeekingGod]

According to Scripture, baptism is always practiced after saving faith in Christ. Baptism is not the means of salvation; it is faith in the Gospel that saves (1 Corinthians 1:14-18; Romans 10:13-17). However, the Catholic Church teaches baptismal regeneration of infants, a practice which is not found in Scripture. Scripture teaches that we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:8-9).

Acts 16:29-34: "The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas. He then brought them out and asked, 'Sirs, what must I do to be saved?' They replied, Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.' Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house. At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his household were baptized. The jailer brought them into his house and set a meal before them; he was filled with joy because he had come to believe in God—he and his whole household." (emphasis added)

The whole household already believed, before they were all baptized.

 

[sheina]

Not quite: entire households were indeed baptised per the record of Scripture.

Entire households were baptized ONLY after they believed. There is no record of infant or unbeliever's baptism in Scriptures.

Belief ALWAYS precedes baptism....baptism never has nor ever will save anyone. Notice in Mark 16:16 that "he that believeth NOT shall be damned" . There is nothing in that verse that specifically states that baptism saves. People are lost because they "believe not", not because they didn't get baptized.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Acts 16:32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

Acts 16:33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

Acts 16:34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.

This passage clearly says that Paul spoke the Word of God to the entire household (v. 32) and that the entire household believed (v. 32-33). This could not be said of infants.

 

[Thekla]

According to Scripture, baptism is always practiced after saving faith in Christ. Baptism is not the means of salvation; it is faith in the Gospel that saves (1 Corinthians 1:14-18; Romans 10:13-17). However, the Catholic Church teaches baptismal regeneration of infants, a practice which is not found in Scripture. Scripture clearly teaches that salvation is by faith. The only possible hint of infant baptism in the Bible that the RCC can point to is that the whole household of the Philippian jailer in Acts 16:33. However, the context nowhere mentions infants. When the Apostle Paul spoke of the household in verse 32, the whole household already believed (verse 34).

Where is the list from the households that were baptised -- can you demonstrate the ages from these households ? One could also say there were two adults and several children including infants.

(As for the first issue, that is your interpretation, likewise your interpretation that the average household includes no infants.)

 

[sheina]

Where is the list from the households that were baptised -- can you demonstrate the ages from these households ? One could also say there were two adults and several children including infants.

(As for the first issue, that is your interpretation, likewise your interpretation that the average household includes no infants.)

Scriptures says no infants! Not anybody's "private" interpretation!

 

[DiligentlySeekingGod]

Infants are incapable of believing in God. Scripture does not say infants were baptized. It says those who believed were baptized.

*And I edited my post to include Acts 16:29-34 since your replied to it.*

 

[Thekla]

Entire households were baptized ONLY after they believed. There is no record of infant or unbeliever's baptism in Scriptures.

Belief ALWAYS precedes baptism....baptism never has nor ever will save anyone. Notice in Mark 16:16 that "he that believeth NOT shall be damned" . There is nothing in that verse that specifically states that baptism saves. People are lost because they "believe not", not because they didn't get baptized.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Acts 16:32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

Acts 16:33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

Acts 16:34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.

This passage clearly says that Paul spoke the Word of God to the entire household (v. 32) and that the entire household believed (v. 32-33). This could not be said of infants.

How can we claim to know that infants cannot believe
What of John the Baptizer ?
I guess you have not witnessed an infants or child's baptism - the faith of a child is often greater than the faith of many adults !

Christ Himself says to not keep the children from Him -

I do fear the intellect has been given supremacy over the spiritual heart evidenced in this practice of denying infants the benefit of the household of God.

 

[Studious One]

Scripture must interpret Scripture.

If one looked to the account of the Phillipian jailer's account alone, one could possibly come to a conclusion that infants could be baptized. After all, Paul did say 'and thy house" to the jailer.

But, if one goes to the words of Christ Himself in the Gospel of Mark, one will easily see that baptism was not for those who did not profess Christ as Lord. Jesus said "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. He that believeth not shall be damned."

Jesus did not say he that is not baptized but believeth not shall be saved. The fact is, Jesus revealed a truth that many want to dismiss; that truth being one cannot be saved apart from belief in Him.

An unbeliever can get baptized from sunup to sundown, but since he is an unbeliever he comes up out of the water condemned still. A priest can baptize an infant and all they have succeeded in doing is giving the child an outward washing... the heart of that infant remains the same. If it does not believe in Christ, it is just as lost as that 80 year old unbeliever that got baptized. Both are still lost and on their way to hell.

He that believeth not is condemned already because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[Thekla]

Scriptures says no infants! Not anybody's "private" interpretation!

Where does it say that

 

[Studious One]

How can we claim to know that infants cannot believe
What of John the Baptizer ?
I guess you have not witnessed an infants or child's baptism - the faith of a child is often greater than the faith of many adults !

Christ Himself says to not keep the children from Him -

I do fear the intellect has been given supremacy over the spiritual heart evidenced in this practice of denying infants the benefit of the household of God.

I do agree that an infant has the capability of believing. David said God caused him to believe while he was on his mother's breast. But, how can the priest know for certain that that infant he is baptizing believes on the Lord Jesus Christ. That infant just may be an unbeliever.

One should wait until the child is old enough to profess Christ before one is baptized.

 

[Thekla]

Scripture must interpret Scripture.

If one looked to the account of the Phillipian jailer's account alone, one could possibly come to a conclusion that infants could be baptized. After all, Paul did say 'and thy house" to the jailer.

But, if one goes to the words of Christ Himself in the Gospel of Mark, one will easily see that baptism was not for those who did not profess Christ as Lord. Jesus said "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. He that believeth not shall be damned."

Note that baptism and belief is needed for salvation- it is not said that baptism is to be denied to infants.

Jesus did not say he that is not baptized but believeth not shall be saved. The fact is, Jesus revealed a truth that many want to dismiss; that truth being one cannot be saved apart from belief in Him.

Nor have I stated that baptism alone saves -- so why is that an issue

An unbeliever can get baptized from sunup to sundown, but since he is an unbeliever he comes up out of the water condemned still. A priest can baptize an infant and all they have succeeded in doing is giving the child an outward washing... the heart of that infant remains the same. If it does not believe in Christ, it is just as lost as that 80 year old unbeliever that got baptized. Both are still lost and on their way to hell.

You seem to be adding to Scripture -- you claim that baptism does not wash us ?

And you claim in your statement to have knowledge of the spiritual heart of every infant !

He that believeth not is condemned already because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God.

So you are claiming that infants cannot believe ?

 

[Thekla]

Infants are incapable of believing in God. Scripture does not say infants were baptized. It says those who believed were baptized.

*And I edited my post to include Acts 16:29-34 since your replied to it.*

The Holy Scriptures do evidence the belief of the infant John the Baptizer even before he was born.

Scripture says entire households were baptized.

You have equated belief with intellect - they are not the same.

 

[Thekla]

Scriptures says no infants! Not anybody's "private" interpretation!

You have presented indeed a private interpretation !

There is no place in the Holy Scriptures that states that infants cannot be baptized !

 

[Studious One]

You have presented indeed a private interpretation !

There is no place in the Holy Scriptures that states that infants cannot be baptized !

There is no place in Scripture that says infants can be baptized.

 

[addo]

You have equated belief with intellect - they are not the same.

But you must have some level of understanding first before being able to believe.

 

[Thekla]

But you must have some level of understanding first before being able to believe.

Belief is in Greek "pistis".

Pistis means trust - belief/trust is not dependent on intellectual capacity.

 

[Thekla]

There is no place in Scripture that says infants can be baptized.

Scripture demonstrates (three times, per my recollection) that entire households were baptized.

Jesus Christ commands, "Go, baptize ..." but does not state in His command an age limit.

To claim an age limit for baptism is indeed to add to Scripture.

"Suffer the little children to come unto Me."

 

[WarriorAngel]

laconicstudent, I can't speak for sheina or for anyone else who disagrees with you here. I will say, however, that I believe we are in agreement because we all reject the belief that Mary is the mother of God. And for me, whatever this or that counsel proclaimed to the contrary is completely irrelevant when it is contrary to the Word of God. Nowhere in Scripture are we told that Mary gave birth to Jesus' divinity. Nowhere in Scripture is Mary called the Mother of God. However, Scripture does tell us that Jesus has always been, because He is, in fact, God. He Himself said, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End" (Revelation 22:13). He has no beginning and no end. John 1:1 says “the Word was God.” John 1:14 says “the Word became flesh.” This clearly indicates that Jesus is God in the flesh. God has no beginning and no end. He is the Alpha and the Omega (Revelation 21:6). Mary is not the mother of God since God has no beginning and no end. She was only the mother of his humanity, not His divinity, because He has always been.

He always was and will be, and yet He was the first fruit to enter Heaven after Becoming Flesh.
To take on the Flesh, He had to be born of a woman, and be born of a woman she has to be His Mother.

Can anyone become flesh without parents?
Certainly the Holy Spirit over shadowed her to conceive the begotten Son.

You cannot undo what He deemed done, though you may not like that He humbled Himself to become flesh - indeed He did.
And to do so He was born of a woman who is properly called Mother.
And He is God.

God becoming flesh was born of His Mother.

 

[Studious One]

Scripture demonstrates (three times, per my recollection) that entire households were baptized.

Jesus Christ commands, "Go, baptize ..." but does not state in His command an age limit.

To claim an age limit for baptism is indeed to add to Scripture.

"Suffer the little children to come unto Me."

To baptize infants who have no way of telling one whether they believe on Christ or not is presumptuous sin. Scripture demonstrates that one must believe; i.e., "if thou believest, thou mayest." There must be a profession. Had the eunuch not professed faith in Christ, no doubt, Philip would have told him that he could not be baptized.