The Assumption of Mary

[Zeek]

What was that old Beatles song?...'All you need is love'. I think we need a bit more love amongst ourselves sometimes. Scripture says 'love covers a multitude of sins'.

Right now 'once more unto the breech dear friends once more'. (the Bard)

I think Sheinas point was that at all times Believers had Scripture to work from...originally the Old Covenant/Testament, and as the Apostles were inspired under the guidence of the Holy Spirit, letters were sent around, copied and became known as further revelation, and eventually were collated into the New Covenant teachings/Scriptures.

A couple of points Justinangel made that were somewhat controversial....(at least to me they were).....

Church dogmas (Trinitarian, Christological, and Marian) have since developed over time through this revelatory channel under the guardianship of the divinely appointed teaching office of the Church

Two points...
1. Marian doctrine has no place in Apostolic teaching, and cannot be innocently slipped in alongside Christological and Trinitarian teaching without being noticed...in fact it sticks out like a sore thumb....both the latter teachings are clearly evident in the Gospels, the words of Jesus and the teaching of the Apostles....but spot the odd one out, and you very quickly see that all the care that has gone into developing and preserving the doctines of the Apostles, goes flying out the window when it comes to Mary....why? Why are the rules that govern sound doctrine suddenly aborted when it comes to Mary. Perhaps point two sheds some light on the answer.

2. Well it all hangs on this phrase, ...'the guardianship of the divinely appointed teaching office of the Church'. If one submits that this Church entity is no less than the Holy Catholic Church, then we can see where the dilemma lies...because the L-rd never appointed such an entity in the first place....so it is reasonable to assume that whereas some of their doctrines are in agreement with the Apostles, the Marian doctrine is a big mistake...they got it wrong, and have shorn up that mistake for centuries, developing a whole system of apologetics to cope with people like myself (although I am new to this arena) who strongly object to perpetuating Christian myths, whatever denomination one is part of, because we are all part of the One Body....therefore this pernicious doctrine that dishonours the L-rds mother, also effects me.

There is a Jewish proverb that sort of sums up this position:

There were a number of people out on a lake in a large rowing boat, when one of the people in the boat Moshe, took out an implement, and proceeded to drill a hole in the floor of the boat underneath his seat.
"Nuh, what are you doing Friend?" demanded the man next to him, "If you make a hole in the boat we will all drown."
Moshe looked at him and smiled..."don't worry, I'm only drilling under my own seat!"

 

[Studious One]

A wolf, though it may be disguised as a sheep, remains a wolf.

 

[justinangel]

Really. Can you show me the scripture explaining this that you have just said? I know that Jesus spoke to the people who came and told Him His mother was outside. He asked who is my mother? Scripture shows us who our mother is. It is not a person but a covenant. The Free woman. Who was not Mary. For she was born under the law.

The Judeo-Christians in Palestine had traditionally venerated Mary with the invocation of Daughter Zion, having perceived her to be the personified archetype of the Church and fulfillment of the free Woman of Promise and true Israel in the spirit by her faith and charity in God's grace. The first Christians of the nascent Church certainly understood how Mary characterized the free woman of promise (cf. Gen 3:15; Rev 12) as one who enjoyed God's special favour and whose faith and devotion had brought blessings to all the nations of the earth. For them their newly acquired Christian faith was the fulillment of their Judaic heritage. Both Jesus and Mary were seen as bridges connecting the Old Covenant with the New in salvation history. The evangelist Luke acknowledged this living Marian tradition of apostolic time and beautifully expressed it in literary form when he wrote his gospel by alluding to the prophet Zephaniah (cf. Lk 1:1-4).

Shout for joy, O Daughter Zion! Sing joyfully, O Israel! Be glad and exult with all your heart, O daughter Jerusalem! The Lord has removed his judgment against you, he has turned away your enemies; the King of Israel, the Lord, is in your midst, you have no further misfortune to fear.

{And Mary said, "My soul proclaims the glory of the Lord, my spirit rejoices in God my savior. For he has looked upon the lowliness of his handmaid."}

On that day it shall be said to Jerusalem: "Fear not, O Zion, be not discouraged. The Lord, your God, is in your midst, a mighty savior.

{In the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a town in Galilee called Nazareth to a virgin betrothed to a man named Joseph, of the house of David, and the virgin's name was Mary. And coming to her he said, "Rejoice, O highly favored daughter! The Lord is with you. But she was greatly troubled at what was said and pondered what sort of greeting this might be. Then the angel said to her, "Fear not, Mary, for you have found favor with God. Behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name him Jesus. He will be great and will be called Son of the Most High, and the Lord will give him the throne of David his father."}


He will rejoice over you with gladness, and renew you in his love.

{"The Mighty one has done great things for me, and holy is his name."}

He will sing joyfully because of you.

{And Elizabeth, filled with the Holy Spirit, cried out in a loud voice and said, "Blessed are you who believed that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled."}

At that time I will bring you home, and at that time I will gather you; For I will give you renown and praise, among all the peoples of the earth. When I bring about your restoration before your very eyes, says the LORD.

{Behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed."}

Zephaniah 3, 14-20

Invoked as Daughter Zion and the free Woman of Promise, Mary is the personified archetype of Israel in the spirit and the Church, who together with her seed is at enmity with the devil and his offspring. Both Jesus and Mary were born under the law and subject to obedience to the will of the Father (Gal 4:4). But as the faithful servants of Israel, neither of them had ever succumbed to the devil's influence and disobeyed God. Their faith and obedience to the will of God served to reconcile mankind with God and restore the human race to friendship with him. As archetype of the Church, Mary is the spiritual mother of all those who observe the will of God and bear witness to Jesus, as the devil continues to wage war against all of her offspring (cf. Rev 12:17). From the cross our Lord confirmed the continuation and expansion of his mother's maternal vocation in the order of redemption when addressing her with the appellation that first appears in the Protoevangelium and last surfaces in the Apocalypse.

When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple there whom he loved, he said to his mother, "Woman, behold your son." Then he said to the disciple, "Behold your mother."
John 19, 26-27

For just as woman came from man, so man is born of woman.
1 Corinthians 11, 12

"I love to call her (Mary) the Church. This mother, when alone had not milk, because alone she was not a woman. But she is once virgin and mother -- pure as a virgin, loving as a mother. And calling her children to her, she nurses them with holy milk, viz., with the Word for childhood."
Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor 1:6 [A.D. 202]

Pax Christu

 

[justinangel]

Christians have never been without the Scripture. The Old Testament Scriptures served as the standard of truth for the first century church (not the Catholic church)..Jew and Gentile alike. Their common conviction was that the Old Testament, properly understood, was a revelation of Christ. There they found a prophetic record of Jesus' life, teaching, death, and resurrection. Within a short time the New Testament Scriptures took their place alongside the Old Testament. For this reason, the early church was never without the written Word of God

Christians have never been with Scripture alone until the 16th century. Without the oral teachings of Christ and his apostles, no new revelation would have transpired out of the Old Testament because it isn't primarily contained there. Without Christ there would be no Old Testament, so it is his spoken word that serves as the standard of faith and morals and practice. The Old Testament properly understood reflects the sacred Tradition of the Church based on the oral teachings of Christ and the preaching of the apostles. Sacred Scripture is infallible because sacred Tradition is infallible. This principle also applies to the sacred books of the New Testament, which belongs to the sacred Tradition of the Catholic Church. These books weren't listed in the canon of Scripture until the late 4th century. Until then even parts of apochryphal texts were cited by the clergy in their sermons provided they did not contravene traditional orthodox belief. But all the books that eventually were listed in the canon were cited regulary in the liturgy of the Mass on the account of totally agreeing with the Apostolic Tradition of the Church.

Because Scripture proceeds from Tradition, it must be interpreted in light of that Tradition. The dogmas of the Holy Trinity,the hypostatic union of divine and human natures in Christ, and the Assumption of Mary are implicitly revealed in Scripture, but made explicit through the medium of Tradition in the deposit of faith. There have been and still are baptized heterodox Christians who believe that the Trinity consists of three Gods and that Jesus was either a divine Person who appeared to be a man or only a man possesed by a divine spirit because that is what they believe the written word reveals. But these conceptions are heretical because they contravene traditional orthodox belief. Our Trinitarian and Christological dogmas were promulgated by the ecumenical councils of the Church as a final response to heretical beliefs that contradicted the sacred Tradition of the Church and threatened the established unity of faith handed down to us by the apostles. Scripture can reveal no divine truth if it is divorced from Tradition, of which it belongs in the deposit of faith.

"For how should it be if the apostles themselves had not left us their writings? Would it not be necessary to follow the course of the tradition which they handed down to those whom they did commit the Churches?"
Irenaeus, Against Heresies 3, 4:1 [inter A.D. 180/199]

Pax Christu

 

[sheina]

Christians have never been with Scripture alone until the 16th century. Without the oral teachings of Christ and his apostles, no new revelation would have transpired out of the Old Testament because it isn't primarily contained there. Without Christ there would be no Old Testament, so it is his spoken word that serves as the standard of faith and morals and practice. The Old Testament properly understood reflects the sacred Tradition of the Church based on the oral teachings of Christ and the preaching of the apostles. Sacred Scripture is infallible because sacred Tradition is infallible. This principle also applies to the sacred books of the New Testament, which belongs to the sacred Tradition of the Catholic Church. These books weren't listed in the canon of Scripture until the late 4th century. Until then even parts of apochryphal texts were cited by the clergy in their sermons provided they did not contravene traditional orthodox belief. But all the books that eventually were listed in the canon were cited regulary in the liturgy of the Mass on the account of totally agreeing with the Apostolic Tradition of the Church.

Because Scripture proceeds from Tradition, it must be interpreted in light of that Tradition. The dogmas of the Holy Trinity,the hypostatic union of divine and human natures in Christ, and the Assumption of Mary are implicitly revealed in Scripture, but made explicit through the medium of Tradition in the deposit of faith. There have been and still are baptized heterodox Christians who believe that the Trinity consists of three Gods and that Jesus was either a divine Person who appeared to be a man or only a man possesed by a divine spirit because that is what they believe the written word reveals. But these conceptions are heretical because they contravene traditional orthodox belief. Our Trinitarian and Christological dogmas were promulgated by the ecumenical councils of the Church as a final response to heretical beliefs that contradicted the sacred Tradition of the Church and threatened the established unity of faith handed down to us by the apostles. Scripture can reveal no divine truth if it is divorced from Tradition, of which it belongs in the deposit of faith.

"For how should it be if the apostles themselves had not left us their writings? Would it not be necessary to follow the course of the tradition which they handed down to those whom they did commit the Churches?"
Irenaeus, Against Heresies 3, 4:1 [inter A.D. 180/199]

Pax Christu

From what 'copy/paste' source did you get this information? Whatever the source, it is incorrect.

 

[laconicstudent]

From what 'copy/paste' source did you get this information? Whatever the source, it is incorrect.

It looks to be a Christian who lived in the second century A.D.

Frankly, I'm going to believe him.

 

[justinangel]

From what 'copy/paste' source did you get this information? Whatever the source, it is incorrect.

No copy/paste source. I originally wrote my last post based on years of study and reflection. What I wrote reflects the perspective of the Church for about the past 2,000 years, and it was unanimously held by the patristic Fathers of the Church who validly succeeded the Apostles in the divine teaching office. The Catholic faith has always been perceived as an edifice whose foundation is sacred Tradition and whose erection is facilitated by sacred Scripture through the guidance of the Holy Spirit under the guardianship of the Magisterium. This edifice will collapse if the written word of God is alienated from the oral and living word originally spoken by Christ himself, ever increasing in a clearer light since his apostles first preached, in the hands of the wrong people. It almost did with the rise of Arianism in the 4th century and Protestantism in the 16th century.

"We are not to credit these men, nor go out from the first and ecclesiastical tradition; nor to believe otherwise than as the churches of God have transmitted to us."
Origen, Commentary on Matthew [post A.D. 244]

"But in learning the Faith and in professing it, acquire and keep that only, which is now delivered to thee by the Church, and which has been built up strongly out of all the Scriptures...Take heed then, brethren, and hold fast the traditions which ye know receive."
Cyril, Bishop of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, 5:12 [A.D. 350]

"But beyond these Scriptural sayings, let us look at the very tradition, teaching and faith of the Catholic Church from the beginning, which the Lord gave, the apostles preached, and the Fathers kept."
Athanasius, Four Letters to Serapion of Thmuis, 1:28 [A.D. 360]

"You are she who, as it is written, appears in beauty, and your virginal body is all holy, all chaste, the dwelling place of God, so that it is henceforth completely exempt from dissolution into dust."
Germanus, Bishop of Constantinople, Sermon 1 [ante A.D. 733]

Pax Christu

 

[Studious One]

"But beyond these Scriptural sayings, let us look at the very tradition, teaching and faith of the Catholic Church from the beginning, which the Lord gave, the apostles preached, and the Fathers kept."
Athanasius, Four Letters to Serapion of Thmuis, 1:28 [A.D. 360]

He had to look into traditions because Scripture didn't agree with him.

Romans 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

 

[laconicstudent]

"But beyond these Scriptural sayings, let us look at the very tradition, teaching and faith of the Catholic Church from the beginning, which the Lord gave, the apostles preached, and the Fathers kept."
Athanasius, Four Letters to Serapion of Thmuis, 1:28 [A.D. 360]

He had to look into traditions because Scripture didn't agree with him.

Romans 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

You know you've hit rock-bottom when you start calling even such figures as St. Athanasius, whom even Protestants revere (or if you prefer "respect highly"), not a real Christian.

 

[Studious One]

You know you've hit rock-bottom when you start calling even such figures as St. Athanasius, whom even Protestants revere (or if you prefer "respect highly"), not a real Christian.

His own words, iaconic. He looked beyond Scriptures and to traditions.

The reason he looked beyond the Scriptures is because Scripture did not agree with his belief.

And where did I say he was 'not a real Christian' in my previous post? If we are to believe many, he was a real Christian.

I do find it interesting that Athanasius made such a quote stating one could see Mary as still being virgin if one goes beyond Scripture and looks to Tradition, yet elsewhere he was stated to say:

[FONT=Times,Times New Roman]

[FONT=Times,Times New Roman]"Now one might write at great length concerning these things, if one desired to go rate details respecting them; for the impiety and
[/FONT][FONT=Times,Times New Roman]perverseness of heresies[/FONT][FONT=Times,Times New Roman] will appear to be manifold and various, and the craft of the deceivers to be very terrible. But [/FONT][FONT=Times,Times New Roman]since holy Scripture is of all things most sufficient for us, therefore recommending to those who desire to know more of these matters, to read the Divine word[/FONT][FONT=Times,Times New Roman], I now hasten to set before you that which most claims attention, and for the sake of which principally I have written these things." (Athanasius, To the Bishops of Egypt, Ch 1, 4)[/FONT]

Here, he taught Sola Scriptura, yet earlier he taught one needs to look beyond Scriiptures and look to tradition?

James 1:8 comes to mind.

According to bible.ca, Athanasius held that tradition always agreed with Scripture. If this is true, then the quote concerning Mary remaining a virgin allledgedly spoken by Athanasius was not actually embraced or taught by him at all. He said that tradition always agreed with Scripture. And Scripture clearly reveals that Mary did not remain a virgin after the birth of Christ.
[/FONT]

 

[laconicstudent]

His own words, iaconic. He looked beyond Scriptures and to traditions.

So?

The reason he looked beyond the Scriptures is because Scripture did not agree with his belief.

Or because Sola Scriptura wasn't invented until over a thousand years after his repose.

And where did I say he was 'not a real Christian' in my previous post? If we are to believe many, he was a real Christian.

So Romans 1:25 was a random quote? Well, alright then.

I do find it interesting that Athanasius made such a quote stating one could see Mary as still being virgin if one goes beyond Scripture and looks to Tradition, yet elsewhere he was stated to say:

[FONT=Times,Times New Roman]

Here, he taught Sola Scriptura, yet earlier he taught one needs to look beyond Scriiptures and look to tradition?[/FONT]

[FONT=Times,Times New Roman]

[/FONT]No, "Most sufficient" != "only sufficient".
[FONT=Times,Times New Roman]
[/FONT]

[FONT=Times,Times New Roman] James 1:8 comes to mind.
[/FONT]

That's nice. So does 2 Maccabees 2:7

[FONT=Times,Times New Roman] [/FONT]

[FONT=Times,Times New Roman] According to bible.ca, Athanasius held that tradition always agreed with Scripture. If this is true, then the quote concerning Mary remaining a virgin allledgedly spoken by Athanasius was not actually embraced or taught by him at all. He said that tradition always agreed with Scripture. And Scripture clearly reveals that Mary did not remain a virgin after the birth of Christ.[/FONT]

No, Scripture clearly demonstrates the ever-virginity of the Theotokos.

 

[WarriorAngel]

What was that old Beatles song?...'All you need is love'. I think we need a bit more love amongst ourselves sometimes. Scripture says 'love covers a multitude of sins'.

Right now 'once more unto the breech dear friends once more'. (the Bard)

I think Sheinas point was that at all times Believers had Scripture to work from...originally the Old Covenant/Testament, and as the Apostles were inspired under the guidence of the Holy Spirit, letters were sent around, copied and became known as further revelation, and eventually were collated into the New Covenant teachings/Scriptures.

Though i agree we need more love...
I wanted to add in some more important detail.

Jesus stayed with them for 40 days after He rose... to teach them the OT scriptures and how He fulfilled them.
The Holy Spirit inspired them to have fortitude, wisdom, knowledge, piety, strength...to name a few. But to also recall everything taught to them.

A couple of points Justinangel made that were somewhat controversial....(at least to me they were).....

Two points...
1. Marian doctrine has no place in Apostolic teaching, and cannot be innocently slipped in alongside Christological and Trinitarian teaching without being noticed...in fact it sticks out like a sore thumb....both the latter teachings are clearly evident in the Gospels, the words of Jesus and the teaching of the Apostles....but spot the odd one out, and you very quickly see that all the care that has gone into developing and preserving the doctines of the Apostles, goes flying out the window when it comes to Mary....why? Why are the rules that govern sound doctrine suddenly aborted when it comes to Mary. Perhaps point two sheds some light on the answer.

Mariology MAGNIFIES the Lord.
For she said herself...'My soul doth magnify the Lord'

One should wonder of course what that could mean.
Not too many do..i fear.

Her Grace - magnifies the Lord's greatness - she explains in that He exalts the lowly and sends the might away.
Her soul, magnifies the Lord's Power over creation ... for she was not left to see corruption.
The Angel Gabriel made this known to her as he Greeted her. For her greeting was not common and in Koine Greek it speaks of her being graced in past tense with a future participle.
What does that mean...?
That was given the grace past of a future action by God.
This is why she pondered it... that and well, she didnt know she was different than everyone else...because her humbleness was part of her perfectness.

IF scriptures tell us she magnifies the Lord - how do you say she is not a part of the wholeness and fulfillment of Christology or scriptures??
The problem is - i see - is a lot, no TONS of what concerns Mary - is totally ignored in scriptures.

It is not that that it does not exist, but rather largely given no credit.

2. Well it all hangs on this phrase, ...'the guardianship of the divinely appointed teaching office of the Church'. If one submits that this Church entity is no less than the Holy Catholic Church, then we can see where the dilemma lies...because the L-rd never appointed such an entity in the first place....so it is reasonable to assume that whereas some of their doctrines are in agreement with the Apostles, the Marian doctrine is a big mistake...they got it wrong, and have shorn up that mistake for centuries, developing a whole system of apologetics to cope with people like myself (although I am new to this arena) who strongly object to perpetuating Christian myths, whatever denomination one is part of, because we are all part of the One Body....therefore this pernicious doctrine that dishonours the L-rds mother, also effects me.

Ahhhhhhh...so in other words Christ let us have at it...
This determination of scriptures defies scriptures themselves for Peter tells us we cannot interpret them for ourselves.
YIKES...now what?
We're all stuck.... and worse, God didnt leave us an authority of scriptures like He did for the Jews. Quite a cunnumdrum that is.

First, not only did not command they write anything, but only rather preach..and baptize, but the Church - so deemed useless or non existent so often in these discussions, was the one who with all knowledge and truth even into the late 300's - decided on what canon was for the Bible.

IF that Church did not hold or even know the Tradition - rather oral teaching Paul said to keep - if she did not have that - she would have not known which was gnostic writing - which was Apostolic...

IF the only measure we have of truth is that which is written - then even the gnostic writings would be part of your scriptures too...written in the 200's.

You know why they didnt make it into the Church's Bible??
Because they didnt agree with the TRADITION of the Church.

Does anyone understand the importance of the Church based on the existence of the scriptures you hold true - alone?

My question is - how is it you can hold them so dear....knowing they are based solely on the Bishops opinions of what was canon, and not only that - solely on their words that the are the word of God.

And yet - i find it a puzzle the very Church who put it together and said what was correct and true is considered either nonexistent or unnecessary or both.

There is a Jewish proverb that sort of sums up this position:

There were a number of people out on a lake in a large rowing boat, when one of the people in the boat Moshe, took out an implement, and proceeded to drill a hole in the floor of the boat underneath his seat.
"Nuh, what are you doing Friend?" demanded the man next to him, "If you make a hole in the boat we will all drown."
Moshe looked at him and smiled..."don't worry, I'm only drilling under my own seat!"

That would be the POV of the Church seeing the others breaking off her vessel.

Did the Holy Spirit actually teach everyone something contrary...
Because we are not agreeing, and i know if are not agreeing then someone is not correct.

I stand by ancient teachings of the same Church who has the proven line of ordination since the Apostles.

 

[MamaZ]

show me where Peter says we cannot interpret scripture for ourselves. This has been said by taking the scripture and twisting it to say what someone wants it to say instead of taking what the scripture really says.

 

[Sarcalogos Deus]

show me where Peter says we cannot interpret scripture for ourselves. This has been said by taking the scripture and twisting it to say what someone wants it to say instead of taking what the scripture really says.

Except that the "plain reading" of Scripture almost never results in the same conclusions. Just go and ask the Church of Christ, Baptists, and Methodists about something and you'll get 3 different answers. We all read scripture through the lens of tradition, In the end it all boils down to which tradition we believe is correct.

 

[MamaZ]

Except that the "plain reading" of Scripture almost never results in the same conclusions. Just go and ask the Church of Christ, Baptists, and Methodists about something and you'll get 3 different answers. We all read scripture through the lens of tradition, In the end it all boils down to which tradition we believe is correct.

you may get three different answers so then we take it all to the full context of the written scripture. I read scripture with prayer and listen for the Lord to speak to me.

 

[DiligentlySeekingGod]

you may get three different answers so then we take it all to the full context of the written scripture. I read scripture with prayer and listen for the Lord to speak to me.

Exactly.

 

[alphonsus12]

Mary is not our mother - she was the earthly mother of Jesus. To treat her like our mother is idolatry.

Revelations 12
" 1 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2 She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. 4 Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born. 5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. 6 The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days. 7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:
“Now have come the salvation and the power
and the kingdom of our God,
and the authority of his Messiah.
For the accuser of our brothers and sisters,
who accuses them before our God day and night,
has been hurled down.
11 They triumphed over him
by the blood of the Lamb
and by the word of their testimony;
they did not love their lives so much
as to shrink from death.
12 Therefore rejoice, you heavens
and you who dwell in them!
But woe to the earth and the sea,
because the devil has gone down to you!
He is filled with fury,
because he knows that his time is short.”
13 When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14 The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach. 15 Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. 16 But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus."

I have been away from these forums for quite some time, but I feel the verses that I have bolded are relevant to the topic at hand. In my humble opinion, the woman is Mary, the child is Jesus, and therefore we as "those who keep God's commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus" are the woman's other children. God Bless.

 

[Studious One]

Proper study will show that Revelation 12 is not speaking about Mary... it is speaking of Israel.

From Warren Wiersbe's Expository Outlines on the New Testament:

Title : Wiersbe’s Expository Outlines on the New Testament
Edition : Fourth
Copyright : 1992 by SP Publications, Inc. All rights reserved. Printed in the United States of America Electronic Edition STEP files Copyright © 2003, Quickverse, a division of Findex.com, Inc.

REVELATION 12 The theme of this chapter is conflict, with the forces of Satan opposing the people of God. These visions outline in an amazing way the major themes of the Bible.
I. The Wonders in Heaven (12:1-6)

A. The Woman.

Some students want us to believe that this is Mary, the mother of our Lord, but vv. 6 and 13-17 make this impossible. Genesis 37:9 indicates that the woman represents the nation of Israel. Verse 5 informs us that the woman gives birth to Christ, and this symbolism points again to Israel (Rom. 1:3; 9:4-5). In the OT, Israel is pictured as a woman and mother (Isa. 54:5; Jer. 3:6-10). The woman is in travail, and the Child that is born is Christ (v. 5 with Ps. 2:9; Micah 5:2-3; Rev. 19:14ff). There is a gap of at least thirty-three years between the first and second sentences in v. 5, and between vv. 5 and 6 we have the entire church age.

B. The Dragon.

This is Satan (v. 9); and the heads, horns, and crowns refer us to 13:1 and 17:3, where the Beast (Antichrist) is described. Please keep in mind that the Beast is present from the outset as the leader of the federated nations of Europe, but he will not openly be revealed as Satan’s “superman” until the middle of the Tribulation period. Verse 4 relates to Isa. 14:12ff, when Satan revolted against God and drew some of the angels down with him. See Job 38:7 and Jude 6.

Satan has always been a murderer (John 8:44), and now he seeks to destroy Christ. During OT days, Satan did all he could to keep the Savior from being born; when Jesus was born, Satan tried to kill Him (Matt. 2:16ff). During His earthly life, Christ was attacked by Satan in various ways, culminating in the cross. Satan also attacks the Jews. The 144,000 will be protected because they are sealed by God, but the other Jews will also be cared for by God. Perhaps the “they” in v. 6 refers to the Gentiles who care for the Jews at that time (Matt. 25:31-46).

Jesus told the believing Jews to flee when the Antichrist was revealed (Matt. 24:15-21). Note the parenthetical admonition in Matt. 24:15 that refers to the “reading” of the Word. Jewish believers during the middle of the Tribulation will read Matt. 24:15-21 and know what to do.

 

[laconicstudent]

Proper study will show that Revelation 12 is not speaking about Mary... it is speaking of Israel.

From Warren Wiersbe's Expository Outlines on the New Testament:

Yes, it is clearly the Church, as St. Victorinus of Pettau and Andrew of Caesarea both write, but it definitely reflects the Theotokos as well, in giving birth to the king.

 

[Studious One]

Yes, it is clearly the Church, as St. Victorinus of Pettau and Andrew of Caesarea both write, but it definitely reflects the Theotokos as well, in giving birth to the king.

Mary is not Theotokos and it doers not reflect her.

Nor is it the Church. There is no Church in Revelation after chapter 4. Revelation 12 is speaking of Israel being the woman.