The Argument for Universal Reconciliation from the Book of Romans

[Der Alte]

Ok I see how you view things. Unless one believes that God creates most people only to torture them forever, because they did not do exactly as tradition dictates, and there are many traditions in what we call Christianity. Then the plain reading of a text like 2Cor 5:19 that says in part “in Christ God was reconciling the world ( that’s the true definition of world cosmos not aion) to Himself, not counting people’s trespasses against them” so if I read that as written that God will reconcile the cosmos to himself, because it goes against tradition of God torturing most of his creation, it’s out of context. So any verse that goes against the tradition of God burning those he says he loves is out of context. People who do this have blinders on and can’t see the truth. I am glad I do not follow that tradition. My God loves his people and will not stop till all are found even if it takes many ages.Jesus will get 100% of what he paid for he will not be robbed.

Again a false accusation, your second sentence, which precludes me from reading further.

 

[Der Alte]

Yes all must confess that Jesus is Lord that’s the only way to God . Fortunately God has made a way for that to happen to all people. He said it three times Isaiah 45:23 /Rom 14;11/ and Phil 2:10-11 all say that Every knee will bow and every tongue gladly confess that Jesus is Lord, and we know that God doesn’t take false confessions so they are being honest out of free will to confess that Jesus is Lord.

There ain't no "GLADLY" IN Isaiah 45:23 /Rom 14;11/ and Phil 2:10-1! See full definition below from BDAG. One of, if not the the most highly acclaimed Hebrew concordances available. There is an O.T. example Yeshua/Yehoshua i.e. Jesus made His enemies his footstool and made them get on their knees before him but they did not become faithful followers of Yeshua.

Joshua 10:22-26​

(22) Then said Joshua, Open the mouth of the cave, and bring out those five kings unto me out of the cave.​

(23) And they did so, and brought forth those five kings unto him out of the cave, the king of Jerusalem, the king of Hebron, the king of Jarmuth, the king of Lachish, and the king of Eglon.​

(24) And it came to pass, when they brought out those kings unto Joshua, that Joshua called for all the men of Israel, and said unto the captains of the men of war which went with him, Come near, put your feet upon the necks of these kings. And they came near, and put their feet upon the necks of them.​

(25) And Joshua said unto them, Fear not, nor be dismayed, be strong and of good courage: for thus shall the LORD do to all your enemies against whom ye fight.​

(26) And afterward Joshua smote them, and slew them, and hanged them on five trees: and they were hanging upon the trees until the evening.​

ἐξομολογέω (s. next entry and ὁμολογέω) 1 aor. ἐξωμολόγησα; fut. mid. ἐξομολογήσομαι; aor. mid. ἐξωμολογησάμην LXX (quotable since III b.c.—Mitt-Wilck. II/2, 20, 18; 37, 17—PHib 30, 18 [300–271 b.c.]; also LXX, pseudepigr., Philo, Joseph.).​

​

① to indicate acceptance of an offer or proposal, promise, consent, act., abs. Lk 22:6 (the act. is found as rarely [perh. Alex. Aphr., An. Mant. II 1 p. 168, 15] as the pass. [perh. SIG 685, 95]).​

​

② to make an admission of wrong-doing/sin, confess, admit, mid. (Plut., Eum. 594 [17, 7], Anton. 943 [59, 3] τ. ἀλήθειαν, Stoic. Repugn. 17 p. 1042a; Sus 14; Jos., Bell. 1, 625, Ant. 8, 256) τὶ someth. (POslo 17, 14 [136 a.d.] τὸ ἀληθές; Cyranides p. 100, 18 πάντα ὅσα ἔπραξεν; Orig., C. Cels. 2, 11, 30 τὸ ἡμαρτημένον) τὰς ἁμαρτίας (Jos., Ant. 8, 129; s. the ins in Steinleitner, nos. 13, 5; 23, 2; 24, 11; 25, 10) Mt 3:6; Mk 1:5 (cp. 1QS 1:24–26); Js 5:16 (s. PAlthaus, Zahn Festgabe 1928, 1ff); Hv 1, 1, 3; Hs 9, 23, 4. τὰς ἁ. τῷ κυρίῳ confess sins to the Lord Hv 3, 1, 5, cp. 6. τὰ παραπτώματα ἐν ἐκκλησίᾳ confess transgressions in the congregation D 4:14. περὶ τῶν παραπτωμάτων make a confession of transgressions 1 Cl 51:3. ἐπὶ τ. ἁμαρτίαις for sins B 19:12. Abs. make a confession of sins Ac 19:18; 2 Cl 8:3. W. dat. of the one to whom sins are confessed 1 Cl 52:1, 2 (w. similarity in form to Ps 7:18; 117:19 and sim. Ps passages, but not=praise because of 1 Cl 51:3 [s. 4 below]).—JSchnitzer, D. Beichte im Lichte d. Religionsgesch.: Ztschr. f. Völkerpsychol. 6, 1930, 94–105; RPettazzoni, La confessione dei Peccati II ’35.​

​

③ to declare openly in acknowledgment, profess, acknowledge, mid. (PHib 30, s. above; POxy 1473, 9; Lucian, Herm. 75) w. ὅτι foll. Phil 2:11 (Is 45:23; s. 4 below).—Nägeli 67.​

​

④ fr. the mngs. ‘confess’ and ‘profess’ there arose, as Rtzst., Erlösungsmyst. 252 shows, the more general sense to praise, in acknowledgment of divine beneficence and majesty (so mostly LXX; TestJob 40:2 πρὸς τὸν πατέρα ) w. dat. of the one praised (oft. LXX; TestSol 1:5; Philo, Leg. All. 1, 80) σοί (2 Km 22:50; 1 Ch 29:13; Ps 85:12; 117:28 al.; Did., Gen. 60, 20) Mt 11:25=Lk 10:21 (s. Norden, Agn. Th. 277–308; JWeiss, GHeinrici Festschr. 1914, 120ff; TArvedson, D. Mysterium Chr. [Mt 11:25–30] ’37; NWilliams, ET 51, ’40, 182–86; 215–20; AHunter, NTS 8, ’62, 241–49); Ro 15:9 (Ps 17:50); 1 Cl 26:2; 61:3; B 6:16 (cp. Ps 34:18). τῷ θεῷ (Tob 14:7; Philo, Leg. All. 2, 95) Ro 14:11 (Is 45:23); τῷ κυρίῳ (fr. Gen 29:35 on, oft. in LXX) 1 Cl 48:2 (Ps 117:19); Hm 10, 3, 2.—DELG s.v. ὁμός. M-M. EDNT. TW. Sv.[1]​

​

---

[1] William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000), 351.​

 

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

There ain't no "gladly" in Phil 2:10-11 Does God save all the people mentioned in Jeremiah 13:11-14, Matthew 7:21-23?

Jeremiah 13:11-14​

(11) For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.​

(12) Therefore thou shalt speak unto them this word; Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Every bottle shall be filled with wine: and they shall say unto thee, Do we not certainly know that every bottle shall be filled with wine?​

(13) Then shalt thou say unto them, Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will fill all the inhabitants of this land, even the kings that sit upon David's throne, and the priests, and the prophets, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, with drunkenness.​

(14) And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.​

Matthew 7:21-23​

(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.​

(22) Many [NOT a few] will say to me in that day, [judgement day] Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?​

(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

When Jesus says "never" He does not mean someday by and by.

My friend, why do you continue to promote this passage as defense against UR? Please stop … you are embarrassing yourself. Seriously. You state you are someone who values the necessity for scholarship, yet you yourself offer none surrounding this text. I asked you basic questions about how you arrive at your interpretation and your reply’s are remedial at best, and I’m being kind in my word choice.

I pointed out to you there is no mention of final judgement, last day, day of the Lord or anything of that nature in the entire chapter of Jeremiah 13. I pointed out no use of the word(s) eternal, everlasting, forever etc … Your reply’s? Again, I’ll stick with remedial at best. Even though there was no need, I consulted old testament Scholars Keil & Delitzsch, John Gill, and Biblical Illustrator. NONE OF THEM even alluded to, much less mention anything pertaining to future punishment. They all speak of this as temporal, pertaining to this life/age. Good grief … give it a rest already. You know, it’s a sign of maturity, not weakness, to admit you are in error.

What you are performing on this text as I stated before is called eisegesis. Any honest individual who has been trained in biblical studies, and actually cares about handling the Scriptures with honor and integrity, will tell you the same.

Eisegesis (/ˌaɪsɪˈdʒiːsɪs/) is the process of interpreting text in such a way as to introduce one's own presuppositions, agendas or biases. It is commonly referred to as reading into the text.[1] It is often done to "prove" a pre-held point of concern, and to provide confirmation bias corresponding with the pre-held interpretation and any agendas supported by it.

Exegesis is drawing out a text's meaning in accordance with the author's context and discoverable meaning. Eisegesis is when a reader imposes their interpretation of the text. Thus exegesis tends to be objective; and eisegesis, highly subjective.

Quote from your post #308:
“For those willing to hear I explain when I see something out-of-context. It often involves quoting only part of a passage which might appear to say something other than what the writer actually intended. Which OBTW includes all of the UR proof texts.”

Based on and processed through the eyes of the gospel of fear & death? No thanks. I choose to listen to the Spirit of Truth that abides in ME and YOU. I have given you more than enough to think about over the last week of discussions. Have you taken the time to consider them as I have taken the time to consider your often repeated out-of-context Scripture in Jeremiah 13? Sadly, I don’t have any reason to think you have …

blessings

 

[Der Alte]

My friend, why do you continue to promote this passage as defense against UR? Please stop … you are embarrassing yourself. Seriously. You state you are someone who values the necessity for scholarship, yet you yourself offer none surrounding this text. I asked you basic questions about how you arrive at your interpretation and your reply’s are remedial at best, and I’m being kind in my word choice.

I pointed out to you there is no mention of final judgement, last day, day of the Lord or anything of that nature in the entire chapter of Jeremiah 13.

Somewhat interesting BUT what do the words "...saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them." mean to you? Can you show me some specific words from God where God, Himself relents and decides to take pity on, and spares and shows mercy to those in the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Jacob that He has destroyed. I'll wait while you look up those specific verses.

I pointed out no use of the word(s) eternal, everlasting, forever etc … Your reply’s?

Irrelevant. What does the word "destroy" mean.

Again, I’ll stick with remedial at best. Even though there was no need, I consulted old testament Scholars Keil & Delitzsch, John Gill, and Biblical Illustrator. NONE OF THEM even alluded to, much less mention anything pertaining to future punishment.

If you are going to reference "old testament Scholars Keil & Delitzsch, John Gill, and Biblical Illustrator"etc please state what they said and where they said it. But Jesus said something about future punishment.

They all speak of this as temporal, pertaining to this life/age. Good grief … give it a rest already. You know, it’s a sign of maturity, not weakness, to admit you are in error.

Vague refences like this are meaningless.

What you are performing on this text as I stated before is called eisegesis. Any honest individual who has been trained in biblical studies, and actually cares about handling the Scriptures with honor and integrity, will tell you the same.

Nonsense! I quoted the verses completely I did not add or take away anything! And it does not contradict and is not contradicted by anything in the book it was quoted from

Eisegesis (/ˌaɪsɪˈdʒiːsɪs/) is the process of interpreting text in such a way as to introduce one's own presuppositions, agendas or biases. It is commonly referred to as reading into the text.[1] It is often done to "prove" a pre-held point of concern, and to provide confirmation bias corresponding with the pre-held interpretation and any agendas supported by it.

Nonsense. Please show me exactly where I "eisegeted" anything?

Quote from your post #308:
“For those willing to hear I explain when I see something out-of-context. It often involves quoting only part of a passage which might appear to say something other than what the writer actually intended. Which OBTW includes all of the UR proof texts.”

Based on and processed through the eyes of the gospel of fear & death? No thanks. I choose to listen to the Spirit of Truth that abides in ME and YOU. I have given you more than enough to think about over the last week of discussions. Have you taken the time to consider them as I have taken the time to consider your often repeated out-of-context Scripture in Jeremiah 13? Sadly, I don’t have any reason to think you have …

Nonsense. Second false reference to "out-of-context Scripture in Jeremiah 13." Please show me exactly how it is out of context with anything in the book of Jeremiah? tic toc. You accused me of eisegesis now accusing me of quoting out-of-context. You cannot show me specifically where I did, in fact, do either?
Here is another passage which you can falsely accuse me of quoting out-of-context and/or eisegesis. Please be specific?

Matthew 7:21-23​

(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.​

(22) Many [not a few] will say to me in that day, [judgement day] Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?​

(23) And then will I [Jesus] profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

When Jesus says "never' he does not mean someday by and by. Here is another favorite of mine quoted from the Eastern Greek Orthodox NT

Matt 25:45 Then he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal [aionios] punishment, but the righteous into eternal [aionios] life.”​

EOB Link

The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The New Testament (The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible)

archive.org

 

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

Somewhat interesting BUT what do the words "...saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them." mean to you? Can you show me some specific words from God where God, Himself relents and decides to take pity on, and spares and shows mercy to those in the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Jacob that He has destroyed. I'll wait while you look up those specific verses.

Remember when I spoke of the silence of Scripture concerning Gehenna/hell, of which NONE of the Apostles speak? Same here my friend. That is my point. These scholars draw out nothing from the text (exegesis) to quote for you. If you wish to learn their thoughts on the proper interpretation of this text … read it and learn. Otherwise, continue down the road of embarrassment you are traveling. Again, please just stop.

Irrelevant. What does the word "destroy" mean.

Why don’t you pull out your Hebrew Lexicon and tell me? It is Interesting to me you have not yet done so. I wonder why? Here is a thought, you might try it some time. Drum roll please … I’m really not sure. You know what? It really wasn’t that hard for me.

Now, I will say this, no original thought here, just the illustration. If I made a huge bonfire, set it ablaze, and once it was a raging hot inferno, I tossed in to it a canvas painting that was once beautiful but had become marred and disfigured from neglect. Left outside in the weather. Pretty much became useless as an object of beauty. Would you say, after the fire burned itself out, that the canvas painting was destroyed? Perhaps. You could also argue the painting was merely transformed from one substance to another. The substance is no longer a painting but it is now ash. Destroyed in one sense, yet merely transformed in to another substance. Perhaps the ash could now be used in your garden. Perhaps it could be used under the eye to help reduce glare from the sun, or even used to make another canvass painting?

I conclude, in this scenario, it is in the eye of the beholder concerning its value or usefulness. In this case you see it as an end of the painting. Destroyed. The end. I may see it as a newly transformed substance waiting to be used for another purpose. Perhaps I might use the ash, using my fingers, to sketch another painting. Just thinking out loud here my friend …

If you are going to reference "old testament Scholars Keil & Delitzsch, John Gill, and Biblical Illustrator"etc please state what they said and where they said it. But Jesus said something about future punishment.


Vague refences like this are meaningless.

Already answered above. Remember? I’ll give you a hint … they were silent on the matter.

Nonsense! I quoted the verses completely I did not add or take away anything! And it does not contradict and is not contradicted by anything in the book it was quoted from

Nonsense. Please show me exactly where I "eisegeted" anything?

Ok. This time I go a step further. I alady have a couple of times. You are acting childish here my brother and I expect better from you. Perhaps I shouldn’t …

Nonsense. Second false reference to "out-of-context Scripture in Jeremiah 13." Please show me exactly how it is out of context with anything in the book of Jeremiah? tic toc. You accused me of eisegesis now accusing me of quoting out-of-context. You cannot show me specifically where I did, in fact, do either?

Final reply on this matter. Your embarrassment continues because your pride is more important to you than your dignity or the integrity of the Scriptures.

Here is another passage which you can falsely accuse me of quoting out-of-context and/or eisegesis. Please be specific?

Matthew 7:21-23​

(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.​

(22) Many [not a few] will say to me in that day, [judgement day] Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?​

(23) And then will I [Jesus] profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

When Jesus says "never' he does not mean someday by and by. Here is another favorite of mine quoted from the Eastern Greek Orthodox NT

Matt 25:45 Then he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal [aionios] punishment, but the righteous into eternal [aionios] life.”​

EOB Link

The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The New Testament (The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible)

archive.org

Good night brother,

blessings

 

[StayStill46]

Yes Phil 2:10-11. /Isaiah 45:23 / Rom 14:11 says that every knee will bow and every tongue will gladly confess that Jesus is Lord. All must accept Jesus as Lord. The difference between what we CUR ( Christian Universal Redemption) believes and ECT is that most people will not put the faith and try In Jesus in this age but will do it after purification of the next age. There are no scriptures that say you can only accept Jesus while in the mortal body but not in the immortal body, none . The only thing I hear is Hebrews says it’s appointed for man once to die then the judgement. I agree 100% but the judgement is not the same as the punishment. Just like our court system of today, if you commit murder you are a murderer but the punishment may be 20 years. Once you have done your time you are still a murder that doesn’t change it a forever thing but the punishment has a beginning and an end. The judgement is not heaven or hell , it’s have you followed Jesus or not this is a one time deal , if yes you go to heaven and receive your inheritance. If no you go to Lake of fire for punishment, second death of the soul. You lose your inheritance and your soul but your punishment is for a limited time , scripture says every knee and every tongue will confess, I personally believe that those who go to Lake of Fire don’t go to heaven but inherit the new earth. But others in our camp see it differently.

Thank you, Jeff, for your detailed response! I really appreciate how you brought in passages like Philippians 2:10-11, Isaiah 45:23, and Romans 14:11 to emphasize that every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord. These verses remind us of the ultimate authority and glory of Christ, which will be acknowledged by all creation.


I also agree with you that salvation is not something automatic—it requires faith in Jesus. Romans 10:9-10 makes this clear, as it says, “If you declare with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.” However, I find it so encouraging that God’s heart is for everyone to come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9), and He lovingly gives us the opportunity to respond to His offer of salvation in this life.


You mentioned the idea of judgment and how it reflects justice, similar to our human court system. That’s a helpful analogy! It reminds me of Hebrews 9:27, which says, “Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment.” It shows that our choices in this life have eternal significance. At the same time, God’s justice is always paired with His mercy, as seen in the cross where Jesus bore the punishment for our sins so that we could be reconciled to God (Isaiah 53:5).


I’d love to hear your thoughts on how we can effectively share this message of reconciliation with those who are hesitant to believe or struggle with the concept of judgment. How do you think we can reflect both the justice and mercy of God in our conversations with others?

 

[Der Alte]

Remember when I spoke of the silence of Scripture concerning Gehenna/hell, of which NONE of the Apostles speak? Same here my friend. That is my point. These scholars draw out nothing from the text (exegesis) to quote for you. If you wish to learn their thoughts on the proper interpretation of this text … read it and learn. Otherwise, continue down the road of embarrassment you are traveling. Again, please just stop.

Empty words. Evidently you can't back up anything you say. How did those 'scholars" address the words which you claim don't really mean "eternal" etc?

Why don’t you pull out your Hebrew Lexicon and tell me? It is Interesting to me you have not yet done so. I wonder why? Here is a thought, you might try it some time. Drum roll please … I’m really not sure. You know what? It really wasn’t that hard for me.

I have already I quoted Jewish sources. Would you like to know how the native Hebrew speakers who translated the JPS translated "olam" and "ad?" Somewhere back there I posted a list of 48 O.T. vss. where olam not only translated as eternal but also defined in the vss. where it appears.

Now, I will say this, no original thought here, just the illustration. If I made a huge bonfire, set it ablaze, and once it was a raging hot inferno, I tossed in to it a canvas painting that was once beautiful but had become marred and disfigured from neglect. Left outside in the weather. Pretty much became useless as an object of beauty. Would you say, after the fire burned itself out, that the canvas painting was destroyed? Perhaps. You could also argue the painting was merely transformed from one substance to another. The substance is no longer a painting but it is now ash. Destroyed in one sense, yet merely transformed in to another substance. Perhaps the ash could now be used in your garden. Perhaps it could be used under the eye to help reduce glare from the sun, or even used to make another canvass painting?

How you might describe you own actions are pretty much irrelevant. What did God mean when He said "destroy?" What did God mean when He said "I will not spare, I will not have pity. etc"

I conclude, in this scenario, it is in the eye of the beholder concerning its value or usefulness. In this case you see it as an end of the painting. Destroyed. The end. I may see it as a newly transformed substance waiting to be used for another purpose. Perhaps I might use the ash, using my fingers, to sketch another painting. Just thinking out loud here my friend …

No in this case, it is NOT in the eye of the beholder. What did God mean?

Already answered above. Remember? I’ll give you a hint … they were silent on the matter.

What did they say instead? Did they not even address the vss. that so many people like me seem to get wrong?

Ok. This time I go a step further. I alady have a couple of times. You are acting childish here my brother and I expect better from you. Perhaps I shouldn’t …

If someone resorts to insults, it is time to move on.

Final reply on this matter. Your embarrassment continues because your pride is more important to you than your dignity or the integrity of the Scriptures.
Good night brother,
blessings

You could not embarrass me if you tried. I have a tough hide which was made even tougher in actual combat for which I received DFC, BSM, AMV, PH, VNCG and some others.

 

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

Final reply on this matter. Your embarrassment continues because your pride is more important to you than your dignity or the integrity of the Scriptures.
Good night brother,
blessings

You could not embarrass me if you tried. I have a tough hide which was made even tougher in actual combat for which I received DFC, BSM, AMV, PH, VNCG and some others.

My Reply: My dear brother, I am an American who is grateful for your service to our country. You may refer to yourself having a tough hide but I see a brother in denial with a hard heart, getting even harder … I love you my friend.

blessngs

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Incorrect! My independent Hebrew and Greek studies have NEVER been shown to be incorrect and they line up with the Jewish Publication society translation of the Old Testament and the Eastern Greek Orthodox translation of the New Testament. Links to JPS and EOB below.
JPS

Online Bible

EOB

The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The New Testament (The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible)

archive.org

I know you have a computer so go on line and look up the definition of Exomologeo, I did and every Greek dictionary and Lexicon all has this definition that I gave .

Incorrect! My independent Hebrew and Greek studies have NEVER been shown to be incorrect and they line up with the Jewish Publication society translation of the Old Testament and the Eastern Greek Orthodox translation of the New Testament. Links to JPS and EOB below.
JPS

Online Bible

EOB

The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The New Testament (The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible)

archive.org

I went on line and every Greek dictionary and Lexicon had the definition of Exomologeo as I wrote. If one expanded their knowledge beyond only the resources that agreed with their presuppositions one would learn that there is a lot of information that has been surpassed by those who hold so deeply to false traditions.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

First show me credible Biblical support for all this verbiage about "ages."

You can read Greek , just get your Greek Bible out and look at all the times it uses the word Aion or Aionios and you will understand. It’s all over the New Testament. If you insist on using English then read out of a literal Bible on line . You will see what I am talking about, I know it’s hard to admit that maybe you got things wrong, we all do it’s part of life , don’t be afraid to expand your knowledge.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Again a false accusation, your second sentence, which precludes me from reading further.

I don’t understand what you are so afraid about, if one’s position is solid then one should not be threatened when challenged, if one stops reading because they don’t like something , why , yo

My friend, why do you continue to promote this passage as defense against UR? Please stop … you are embarrassing yourself. Seriously. You state you are someone who values the necessity for scholarship, yet you yourself offer none surrounding this text. I asked you basic questions about how you arrive at your interpretation and your reply’s are remedial at best, and I’m being kind in my word choice.

I pointed out to you there is no mention of final judgement, last day, day of the Lord or anything of that nature in the entire chapter of Jeremiah 13. I pointed out no use of the word(s) eternal, everlasting, forever etc … Your reply’s? Again, I’ll stick with remedial at best. Even though there was no need, I consulted old testament Scholars Keil & Delitzsch, John Gill, and Biblical Illustrator. NONE OF THEM even alluded to, much less mention anything pertaining to future punishment. They all speak of this as temporal, pertaining to this life/age. Good grief … give it a rest already. You know, it’s a sign of maturity, not weakness, to admit you are in error.

What you are performing on this text as I stated before is called eisegesis. Any honest individual who has been trained in biblical studies, and actually cares about handling the Scriptures with honor and integrity, will tell you the same.

Eisegesis (/ˌaɪsɪˈdʒiːsɪs/) is the process of interpreting text in such a way as to introduce one's own presuppositions, agendas or biases. It is commonly referred to as reading into the text.[1] It is often done to "prove" a pre-held point of concern, and to provide confirmation bias corresponding with the pre-held interpretation and any agendas supported by it.

Exegesis is drawing out a text's meaning in accordance with the author's context and discoverable meaning. Eisegesis is when a reader imposes their interpretation of the text. Thus exegesis tends to be objective; and eisegesis, highly subjective.

Quote from your post #308:
“For those willing to hear I explain when I see something out-of-context. It often involves quoting only part of a passage which might appear to say something other than what the writer actually intended. Which OBTW includes all of the UR proof texts.”

Based on and processed through the eyes of the gospel of fear & death? No thanks. I choose to listen to the Spirit of Truth that abides in ME and YOU. I have given you more than enough to think about over the last week of discussions. Have you taken the time to consider them as I have taken the time to consider your often repeated out-of-context Scripture in Jeremiah 13? Sadly, I don’t have any reason to think you have …

blessings

I like how you respond, you definitely are better at English than I am. I have a brain that is faster than my fingers and often I can’t quite write what my brain is thinking, it’s like trying to put a dump truck load of dirt on a shovel.

 

[Der Alte]

I know you have a computer so go on line and look up the definition of Exomologeo, I did and every Greek dictionary and Lexicon all has this definition that I gave .

I went on line and every Greek dictionary and Lexicon had the definition of Exomologeo as I wrote. If one expanded their knowledge beyond only the resources that agreed with their presuppositions one would learn that there is a lot of information that has been surpassed by those who hold so deeply to false traditions.

***FLASH*** I already posted the definition of exomologeo from BDAG Bauer Danker Arndt, Gingrich Greek lexicon in a previous thread. I happen to have this lexicon in my personal library. Here it is again for those who missed ignored it first time around. NOTHING about gladly!
ἐξομολογέω (s. next entry and ὁμολογέω) 1 aor. ἐξωμολόγησα; fut. mid. ἐξομολογήσομαι; aor. mid. ἐξωμολογησάμην LXX (quotable since III b.c.—Mitt-Wilck. II/2, 20, 18; 37, 17—PHib 30, 18 [300–271 b.c.]; also LXX, pseudepigr., Philo, Joseph.).

① to indicate acceptance of an offer or proposal, promise, consent, act., abs. Lk 22:6 (the act. is found as rarely [perh. Alex. Aphr., An. Mant. II 1 p. 168, 15] as the pass. [perh. SIG 685, 95]).

② to make an admission of wrong-doing/sin, confess, admit, mid. (Plut., Eum. 594 [17, 7], Anton. 943 [59, 3] τ. ἀλήθειαν, Stoic. Repugn. 17 p. 1042a; Sus 14; Jos., Bell. 1, 625, Ant. 8, 256) τὶ someth. (POslo 17, 14 [136 a.d.] τὸ ἀληθές; Cyranides p. 100, 18 πάντα ὅσα ἔπραξεν; Orig., C. Cels. 2, 11, 30 τὸ ἡμαρτημένον) τὰς ἁμαρτίας (Jos., Ant. 8, 129; s. the ins in Steinleitner, nos. 13, 5; 23, 2; 24, 11; 25, 10) Mt 3:6; Mk 1:5 (cp. 1QS 1:24–26); Js 5:16 (s. PAlthaus, Zahn Festgabe 1928, 1ff); Hv 1, 1, 3; Hs 9, 23, 4. τὰς ἁ. τῷ κυρίῳ confess sins to the Lord Hv 3, 1, 5, cp. 6. τὰ παραπτώματα ἐν ἐκκλησίᾳ confess transgressions in the congregation D 4:14. περὶ τῶν παραπτωμάτων make a confession of transgressions 1 Cl 51:3. ἐπὶ τ. ἁμαρτίαις for sins B 19:12. Abs. make a confession of sins Ac 19:18; 2 Cl 8:3. W. dat. of the one to whom sins are confessed 1 Cl 52:1, 2 (w. similarity in form to Ps 7:18; 117:19 and sim. Ps passages, but not=praise because of 1 Cl 51:3 [s. 4 below]).—JSchnitzer, D. Beichte im Lichte d. Religionsgesch.: Ztschr. f. Völkerpsychol. 6, 1930, 94–105; RPettazzoni, La confessione dei Peccati II ’35.

③ to declare openly in acknowledgment, profess, acknowledge, mid. (PHib 30, s. above; POxy 1473, 9; Lucian, Herm. 75) w. ὅτι foll. Phil 2:11 (Is 45:23; s. 4 below).—Nägeli 67.

④ fr. the mngs. ‘confess’ and ‘profess’ there arose, as Rtzst., Erlösungsmyst. 252 shows, the more general sense to praise, in acknowledgment of divine beneficence and majesty (so mostly LXX; TestJob 40:2 πρὸς τὸν πατέρα ) w. dat. of the one praised (oft. LXX; TestSol 1:5; Philo, Leg. All. 1, 80) σοί (2 Km 22:50; 1 Ch 29:13; Ps 85:12; 117:28 al.; Did., Gen. 60, 20) Mt 11:25=Lk 10:21 (s. Norden, Agn. Th. 277–308; JWeiss, GHeinrici Festschr. 1914, 120ff; TArvedson, D. Mysterium Chr. [Mt 11:25–30] ’37; NWilliams, ET 51, ’40, 182–86; 215–20; AHunter, NTS 8, ’62, 241–49); Ro 15:9 (Ps 17:50); 1 Cl 26:2; 61:3; B 6:16 (cp. Ps 34:18). τῷ θεῷ (Tob 14:7; Philo, Leg. All. 2, 95) Ro 14:11 (Is 45:23); τῷ κυρίῳ (fr. Gen 29:35 on, oft. in LXX) 1 Cl 48:2 (Ps 117:19); Hm 10, 3, 2.—DELG s.v. ὁμός. M-M. EDNT. TW. Sv.[1]

---

[1] William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000), 351.

Phony "scholars" add the "gladly" to make the word fit their assumptions/presuppositions.

 

[Der Alte]

You can read Greek , just get your Greek Bible out and look at all the times it uses the word Aion or Aionios and you will understand. It’s all over the New Testament. If you insist on using English then read out of a literal Bible on line . You will see what I am talking about, I know it’s hard to admit that maybe you got things wrong, we all do it’s part of life , don’t be afraid to expand your knowledge.

FYI I have posted a link to the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible. Here it is again.
The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Have you even glanced at my post where I show from scripture only that 'aionios" means "eternal?" And FYI it is so translated in the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible, translated by native Greek speaking scholars. Since you seemed to have ignored missed it first time here are the first ten spoken by Jesus.
…..In the following ten verses Jesus defines/describes “aionios” as “eternal.” Luke 1:33, John 6:58, John 10:28, John 3:15, John 3:16, John 5:24, John 3:36, John 4:14, John 6:27, John 8:51

[1] Luke 1:33​

(33) And he shall reign [basileusei Vb.] over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom [basileias, Nn.] there shall be no end.[telos]​

In this verse the reign/basileusei, the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition means eternal, no end.

[2] John 6:58​

(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[aionios]​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “live aionios” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite age, a finite period life is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”

[3] John 10:28​

(28) I give them eternal [aionios] life, and they shall never [aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand”, and “never perish.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite age,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’/never perish” “Aionios life” by definition means “eternal life.”

[4]John 3:15​

(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.​

[5] John 3:16​

(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life.​

In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish,” twice. By definition “aionion life” means eternal or everlasting life.

[6]John 5:24​

(24) Verily, verily, [Amen, Amen] I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [aionios] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite age,” by definition it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.

[7]John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [aionios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposed aionios life with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.

[8]John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never [ου μη/ou mé] thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [aionios] life.​

In this verse Jesus paralleled aionios with “shall [ου μη/ou mé][fn] never thirst.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal. See footnote [fn] on “ou mé” below.

[9]John 6:27​

(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [aionios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.​

In this verse Jesus contrasted “aionios meat” with “meat that perishes.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.

[10]John 8:51​

(51) Very truly [amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ou mé eis ton aiona][fn] see death."​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “unto aion” with “never see death.” By definition “aion” means eternity.
I don't often "get things wrong."

 

[Der Alte]

You could not embarrass me if you tried. I have a tough hide which was made even tougher in actual combat for which I received DFC, BSM, AMV, PH, VNCG and some others.

My Reply: My dear brother, I am an American who is grateful for your service to our country. You may refer to yourself having a tough hide but I see a brother in denial with a hard heart, getting even harder … I love you my friend.

blessngs

More insults.

 

[Der Alte]

You can read Greek , just get your Greek Bible out and look at all the times it uses the word Aion or Aionios and you will understand. It’s all over the New Testament. If you insist on using English then read out of a literal Bible on line . You will see what I am talking about, I know it’s hard to admit that maybe you got things wrong, we all do it’s part of life , don’t be afraid to expand your knowledge.

Give me your best 3/4 examples please without all the insults.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

***FLASH*** I already posted the definition of exomologeo from BDAG Bauer Danker Arndt, Gingrich Greek lexicon in a previous thread. I happen to have this lexicon in my personal library. Here it is again for those who missed ignored it first time around. NOTHING about gladly!
ἐξομολογέω (s. next entry and ὁμολογέω) 1 aor. ἐξωμολόγησα; fut. mid. ἐξομολογήσομαι; aor. mid. ἐξωμολογησάμην LXX (quotable since III b.c.—Mitt-Wilck. II/2, 20, 18; 37, 17—PHib 30, 18 [300–271 b.c.]; also LXX, pseudepigr., Philo, Joseph.).

① to indicate acceptance of an offer or proposal, promise, consent, act., abs. Lk 22:6 (the act. is found as rarely [perh. Alex. Aphr., An. Mant. II 1 p. 168, 15] as the pass. [perh. SIG 685, 95]).

② to make an admission of wrong-doing/sin, confess, admit, mid. (Plut., Eum. 594 [17, 7], Anton. 943 [59, 3] τ. ἀλήθειαν, Stoic. Repugn. 17 p. 1042a; Sus 14; Jos., Bell. 1, 625, Ant. 8, 256) τὶ someth. (POslo 17, 14 [136 a.d.] τὸ ἀληθές; Cyranides p. 100, 18 πάντα ὅσα ἔπραξεν; Orig., C. Cels. 2, 11, 30 τὸ ἡμαρτημένον) τὰς ἁμαρτίας (Jos., Ant. 8, 129; s. the ins in Steinleitner, nos. 13, 5; 23, 2; 24, 11; 25, 10) Mt 3:6; Mk 1:5 (cp. 1QS 1:24–26); Js 5:16 (s. PAlthaus, Zahn Festgabe 1928, 1ff); Hv 1, 1, 3; Hs 9, 23, 4. τὰς ἁ. τῷ κυρίῳ confess sins to the Lord Hv 3, 1, 5, cp. 6. τὰ παραπτώματα ἐν ἐκκλησίᾳ confess transgressions in the congregation D 4:14. περὶ τῶν παραπτωμάτων make a confession of transgressions 1 Cl 51:3. ἐπὶ τ. ἁμαρτίαις for sins B 19:12. Abs. make a confession of sins Ac 19:18; 2 Cl 8:3. W. dat. of the one to whom sins are confessed 1 Cl 52:1, 2 (w. similarity in form to Ps 7:18; 117:19 and sim. Ps passages, but not=praise because of 1 Cl 51:3 [s. 4 below]).—JSchnitzer, D. Beichte im Lichte d. Religionsgesch.: Ztschr. f. Völkerpsychol. 6, 1930, 94–105; RPettazzoni, La confessione dei Peccati II ’35.

③ to declare openly in acknowledgment, profess, acknowledge, mid. (PHib 30, s. above; POxy 1473, 9; Lucian, Herm. 75) w. ὅτι foll. Phil 2:11 (Is 45:23; s. 4 below).—Nägeli 67.

④ fr. the mngs. ‘confess’ and ‘profess’ there arose, as Rtzst., Erlösungsmyst. 252 shows, the more general sense to praise, in acknowledgment of divine beneficence and majesty (so mostly LXX; TestJob 40:2 πρὸς τὸν πατέρα ) w. dat. of the one praised (oft. LXX; TestSol 1:5; Philo, Leg. All. 1, 80) σοί (2 Km 22:50; 1 Ch 29:13; Ps 85:12; 117:28 al.; Did., Gen. 60, 20) Mt 11:25=Lk 10:21 (s. Norden, Agn. Th. 277–308; JWeiss, GHeinrici Festschr. 1914, 120ff; TArvedson, D. Mysterium Chr. [Mt 11:25–30] ’37; NWilliams, ET 51, ’40, 182–86; 215–20; AHunter, NTS 8, ’62, 241–49); Ro 15:9 (Ps 17:50); 1 Cl 26:2; 61:3; B 6:16 (cp. Ps 34:18). τῷ θεῷ (Tob 14:7; Philo, Leg. All. 2, 95) Ro 14:11 (Is 45:23); τῷ κυρίῳ (fr. Gen 29:35 on, oft. in LXX) 1 Cl 48:2 (Ps 117:19); Hm 10, 3, 2.—DELG s.v. ὁμός. M-M. EDNT. TW. Sv.[1]

---

[1] William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000), 351.

Phony "scholars" add the "gladly" to make the word fit their assumptions/presuppositions.

Ok using the text you supplied, is that the very thing that scripture says must be done for people to be saved? If we confess with out tongue and believe in our hearts Jesus is then we are saved- is that not what your definition says? 1 to accept an offer 2 to make admission of wrong /confess 3 to declare openly in acknowledgement-profess . How is that not what all people must do. Why does this idea of everyone doing this as scripture says will happen so repulsive to those who hold to ECT , unless they see the false hood of the idea that God would create people he knew he would have to torture forever, and that scares them because if that is true, which it is, what else in the tradition they hold to is false also and that is a scary thing to think your box that God is in is too small.no one likes to admit they are wrong it takes courage and maturity, something that is lacking in many.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Give me your best 3/4 examples please without all the insults.

There are no best , they just are. Here are some Phil vs 15 … so that in return you might have him for the age;(aeonian) Titus 3:7 … we might become heirs according to the life in the age. Titus 1:2 In hope of the life of the ade, which God , who does not lie, promised before the times of the ages( aeonian times)2Tim 4:18 … to whom be glory unto the ages of the ages;amen. Col1:26 The mystery ( Jesus will save all Apokatastasis) that has been hit from the ages …Eph 2:7 In order that in the ages he might show forth the extravagant richness of his grace, Gal 6:8 … but the one sowing in the spirit will reap life in the age. That’s a few there are more.

 

[Der Alte]

Ok using the text you supplied, is that the very thing that scripture says must be done for people to be saved? If we confess with out tongue and believe in our hearts Jesus is then we are saved- is that not what your definition says?

Now who is eisegeting?

1 to accept an offer 2 to make admission of wrong /confess 3 to declare openly in acknowledgement-profess .

I still don't see "gladly" here. Which you claimed was in a number of lexicons

How is that not what all people must do. Why does this idea of everyone doing this as scripture says will happen so repulsive to those who hold to ECT , unless they see the false hood of the idea that God would create people he knew he would have to torture forever, and that scares them because if that is true, which it is, what else in the tradition they hold to is false also and that is a scary thing to think your box that God is in is too small.no one likes to admit they are wrong it takes courage and maturity, something that is lacking in many.

Are you familiar with the punctuation mark the lowly period? It looks like this. According to two passages which I have posted a number of times all people will not be saved.
Jeremiah 13:11-14 and Matthew 7:21-23

 

[Der Alte]

There are no best , they just are. Here are some Phil vs 15 … so that in return you might have him for the age;(aeonian) Titus 3:7 … we might become heirs according to the life in the age.

"Might have" NOT "will have" "Might become" NOT "will become."

Titus 1:2 In hope of the life of the ade, which God , who does not lie, promised before the times of the ages( aeonian times)

Should that not read "in assurance of the life of the age...?"

2Tim 4:18 … to whom be glory unto the ages of the ages;amen. Col1:26 The mystery ( Jesus will save all Apokatastasis) that has been hit from the ages …

The apotkatastasis is not mentioned in Colossians.

Eph 2:7 In order that in the ages he might show forth the extravagant richness of his grace, Gal 6:8 … but the one sowing in the spirit will reap life in the age. That’s a few there are more.

Where does Galatians say that "the one NOT sowing in the spirit will reap life in the age?

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Now who is eisegeting?

I still don't see "gladly" here. Which you claimed was in a number of lexicons

Are you familiar with the punctuation mark the lowly period? It looks like this. According to two passages which I have posted a number of times all people will not be saved.
Jeremiah 13:11-14 and Matthew 7:21-23

Ok I am horrible at spelling I know , but you have not refuted what I said. Maybe the books you use don’t use gladly, the ones I looked up did but that’s not the point. Is not confessing with your tongue how we became saved? That was the point and using the definition that you gave fits that statement. I know you don’t like it but it’s there.