The Apparent Contradiction Between a Loving God and Eternal Punishment

[fated]

At the heavenly feast, you'll note that the guests -choose- not to attend, they have something better to do. They choose their own crap rather than Gods.

 

[A New Dawn]

To receive our gift we must do the things it says in the bible. If we don't pass the test, we don't get our present.


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Then it isn't a gift. It is an earned wage.

 

[daydreamergurl15]

Then it isn't a gift. It is an earned wage.

No, it's a gift, Christ was the one who "earned" it when He died on the cross, so if He tells me that I need to hop on 1 leg and bark to receive the gift, then I will, but He didn't. He tells me that I must believe in Him and live my life for Him, then I will...for He has the right to tell me how I should receive what He sacrificed Himself for.

 

[DD2008]

Odd, but I don't know a single man like that. Not one. Every man is born with love in his heart, not vileness. Love is the essence of a man, he cannot even survive long as an infant without it. If he were vile, he would need vileness to survive. What man hates God? A man must know God to hate God and who can know God? No man deserves hell. It wouldn't matter who said so, what Bible verse, what Saint, what perception of God... that could never be made true.

Man is filled with wickedness, he is selfish, lustful, prideful, violent, mean, and deceitful. God is none of these things and man hates him because God condemns the things man is as evil. Rape, murder, lies, greed, filth, vulgarity, all come from the heart of man. You don;t have to teach a child to be bad, you have to teach him to be good. Evil is the natural state of man.

If everyone could see all of your thoughts would you be proud of them or would you hide in shame?

Watch the video on post 265.

You must realize you are a sinner and repent of your sins and trust in Christ alone for your salvation before you can be saved from the punishment reserved for all of the wicked. You can't save yourself. Only Christ can save you.

Romans 3:23 ESV
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

One who thinks he is good naturally thinks God is evil because man's desires are at enmity with GOd.

James 4:4 ESV
4 You adulterous people!Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.

 

[JusSumguy]

Romans 3:23 ESV
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

I'm pretty sure this is talking about former sins. Just like it says.

A statement of promise. A new beginning.

Factually........if I don't do what I'm supposed to do, I don't get the gift. Or, if I do the stuff I'm not supposed to do, I don't get gift.

Call it what you like.


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[red77]

To receive our gift we must do the things it says in the bible. If we don't pass the test, we don't get our present.


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Then it's not a gift, it's a reward. Would you tell your children that they're only going to get birthday presents if they do well in school? In fact just how many times have you given a present to someone with rules attached? I received a very nice gift in the last couple of days and I neither earned nor warranted it.

 

[daydreamergurl15]

Then it's not a gift, it's a reward. Would you tell your children that they're only going to get birthday presents if they do well in school? In fact just how many times have you given a present to someone with rules attached? I received a very nice gift in the last couple of days and I neither earned nor warranted it.

Then you know what, call it a reward...
Matthew 5:11-12

11 “Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. 12 Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.​

Hebrews 11:6

6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.​

Call it a gift...
Romans 6:22-23

22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.​

Ephesians 2:8

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,​

But whatever you call it, remember it's because of Christ's sacrifice that we receive it. And He said that "...whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." John 3:16b, again, He said we must believe to have everlasting life.

 

[JusSumguy]

Then it's not a gift, it's a reward.

Interesting. Hmmmmm.

Would you tell your children that they're only going to get birthday presents if they do well in school?

Now, this presupposes that we will go to heaven no matter the condition of our heart. But it is contingent on the condition of our heart.

So, I suggest that it is a reward.

In fact just how many times have you given a present to someone with rules attached? I received a very nice gift in the last couple of days and I neither earned nor warranted it.

So, you can point to a place where God tells us that we will go to heaven no matter the work we've done? Cuz this is pretty cool. I'm all ears.

I can forgo my tasks,? Forget to follow his rules? Stop praying, and even warship false idols. I won't relent on my death bed in prayer. I never ask for forgiveness, and I die in this state?

Do I still get to go to Heaven? Or is that different?

How about..... Imma guy who generally does good, but I've done a terrible job with my family. I can't control my son and he's an abomination to God. But I'm devout, and a leader among Christians.

Or maybe, Imma guy who does good stuff. Tries his hardest. Makes some mistakes and asks for forgiveness. But every time I go to my friends house, they have a family custom of lighting an incense to their Buddha statue. "It brings good fortune," they say. I relent, rather than cause a scene.

Is there a point at which an individual will be denied this gift?

Are we allowed to use logic?


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[Casstranquility]

Where are we told that love is the essence of a man?

Where? I didn't say it was in the Bible. I am told by my own experience and the reading that I do on the subject.

We are told that God is love, we are not told that man is love.

True, your book doesn't state such a thing.

Love is an action, not simply stating the words "I love you" so if an infant is not receiving proper care or being shown love through the actions of the parents/guardian then of course they will not survive long.

Love is a heck of a lot more than action! If you feed an infant, take care of all their physical needs but give them not love, many won't survive. (Love is tender, love is a connection, it is not just some meeting of the physical needs.)

And you don't have to know God to hate Him, for we are told that no one knows the heart and mind of God except Christ, but people hate His commandments and do not follow His ways.

Yes, yes, you do need to know someone before you can hate them. You can hate aspects of them, but it is not possible to hate who they ARE unless you first know who they are.

To say that no man deserves Hell, I wonder what verses tells us that, since when did we ever deserve Heaven?

Who cares what verse? I say that. Me. Love says it, too. I don't believe in a measuring stick.

We were created on this earth here to "Fear God and keep His commandments, for this is the whole duty of man" (Ecc 12:13b) but yet, we refuse to do that.

Well, that sounds like an awfully boring thing to have been created for. I'd rather not have been created if that's my purpose. Blah. Thankfully, there's a lot of other things to do, like loving others- because I want to!

If, in God's perspective, we are evil in our thoughts and hearts and without His Son's blood we can never become righteous and enter in His heaven how can we say that we deserve heaven simply because we cannot hate God because we do not know Him?

Um, but how in the world do you happen to know what God's perspective is? That would mean you know God, something no man can do... hmm.. Technically, though, I did not say we deserve heaven. I don't believe in that useless word "deserve". That's a word devised by people who wanted to make others feel worthless and disrespect the dignity of every human soul. And another thing, I don't believe in heaven, either.

We need to look at sin through God's perspective and see how He thinks of it. If we sin before Him and He said, hell is where we go if we continue to do wickedness then hell is what we deserve.

We deserve hell because we are puny little creatures, created by God to be exactly who we are, a complex medley of love, hate, joy, pain, tears, tenderness, murder, saving, hugging, kissing, stabbing? We are humans. If being who I was created to be makes me deserve hell, God made a serious mistake.

But if I am not mistaken, we were talking about sin being "finite" and I was trying to show you that, in God's eyes, sin was not "finite" and that those of old had to wait for Christ's death, for their sins to be forgiven...and it was forgiven because of them following the commandments when they were under the old law.

You are mistaken... I just entered this conversation. But, that's alright.

 

[Casstranquility]

Man is filled with wickedness, he is selfish, lustful, prideful, violent, mean, and deceitful.

Yes, man is at times filled with such feelings. He is also filled with love, tenderness, compassion, sympathy, understanding, selflessness, kindness, and honesty. These seem to be more natural. It is the abnormal man who enjoys his hurtful and vengeful feelings. A man who murders and likes it is not whole, he's not wholly human.

God is none of these things and man hates him because God condemns the things man is as evil.

Well, I didn't hate God. And I still don't hate God... I do however hate certain perspectives of him.

Rape, murder, lies, greed, filth, vulgarity, all come from the heart of man. You don;t have to teach a child to be bad, you have to teach him to be good. Evil is the natural state of man.

I doubt that they come from his heart. Whenever I have been in touch with my heart, my soul, I have felt love, and pain for any "wrongdoing". I have felt forgiveness wash away all transgressions. All of those at most times come from a man's wounds, not his heart.
If only people didn't think so little of humanity, we wouldn't have to command our children to be good. Love them, and wounds won't be created which hold violence and pain and aggression.

If everyone could see all of your thoughts would you be proud of them or would you hide in shame?

I would, of course, hide in shame.... since not many people are okay with being a human being, and my thoughts and feelings and actions are that, human. Sadly, most deny humans to be human, and reject people who think thoughts that they have deemed "evil, wrong, or bad." Yet, all humans think these thoughts at some point in their lives. Then they end up rejecting themselves, and believing that they deserve hell.

You must realize you are a sinner and repent of your sins and trust in Christ alone for your salvation before you can be saved from the punishment reserved for all of the wicked. You can't save yourself. Only Christ can save you.

I was a sinner many years ago. But, I came to know the love of God and Jesus, and I am on my way to accepting myself as a person, not a sinner.

One who thinks he is good naturally thinks God is evil because man's desires are at enmity with GOd.

No. That is false. All of my desires are not at enmity with God. My greatest desire has been to be at home in the arms of God. Melted into purest Love.

 

[daydreamergurl15]

Casstranquility,

Because this is a Christian only section, I assumed you were a Christian. If I looked at your icon, no offense, but I wouldn't have bothered quoting your argument. We don't have the same mind set and we don't have the same authority, where I believe that God's word is my authority and because that is not your mindset, I should have never quoted you.

And as for the last part about speaking about sin being "finite", I edit the wrong post, I meant it for someone else.

 

[Casstranquility]

Because this is a Christian only section, I assumed you were a Christian.

Uh, yeah, sorry about that. I didn't realise this was only for Christians... however, I do consider myself a disciple of Christ- a Christian by the technical meaning of the word.

Well, thanks for the mini dialogue.

 

[Hentenza]

The Unorthodox Theology forum and subforums are open to all posters not just Christians.

All are welcomed to post here.

 

[daydreamergurl15]

The Unorthodox Theology forum and subforums are open to all posters not just Christians.

All are welcomed to post here.

Sorry, I didn't realize that. It is under the Theology Section that said "Christian Only" so that's what I assumed. Sorry.

 

[DD2008]

Well, I didn't hate God. And I still don't hate God... I do however hate certain perspectives of him.

Do you love the God of the bible? Imagine of you will that all 66 books are nothing but pure truth. Do you love him?

 

[Casstranquility]

Do you love the God of the bible? Imagine of you will that all 66 books are nothing but pure truth. Do you love him?

Do you mean pure truth literally or metaphorically? I assume you mean literally, which would be a no. I don't love that perception of God, not yet anyway. It may turn out to be a needed perception, in which case, I will stop hating him. This makes me think of something I just read today about Martin Luther... before he wrote his thesis, he hated God because of a common perception of Him that led Luther to believe he didn't deserve God's grace, that he could never measure up. Then a passage of scripture was revealed to him that said grace was based upon faith, not works, and he no longer hated God. A perception of God was made available to him through the scriptures which met his needs as a unique human being.
I think God reveals different perceptions of Himself through the Bible (or other Scriptures) and through Nature, according to one's spiritual needs. I am a person with low to no self-esteem- I need a kind and gentle God, or I will have to hate him due to my wounds. I do not know about you, but I think the perception of God you worship fits your revealed experience and personality, does it not?
I love the perception of God I must based upon who I am. If God reveals more of Himself to me, then, great! He is always. That's the nature of Truth, to continuously reveal Itself in ways we can understand and grasp.

 

[JusSumguy]

Do you mean pure truth literally or metaphorically? I assume you mean literally, which would be a no. I don't love that perception of God, not yet anyway.

Praise God.... Your mind is open. I remember being on that very same step. Just keep digging for the truth. Keep an open mind. Listen to the Holy Spirit (you would prolly think of him as your conscience) and you can't help finding yourself on the Lords path.

It may turn out to be a needed perception, in which case, I will stop hating him.

Are you sure you hate the Lord? Do you really hate anybody? Or could it be a church which has turned you away from the Lord?

Some churches have a way of alienating a person. Using fear based reasoning to keep them in line. It angers, and chases away some folks.

They end up blaming the Lord rather than the misguided machinations of man.

Fear doesn't come from God. So when somebody uses fear in an effort to drive home their point. Well...... it doesn't come from God.

JusSayin


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[DD2008]

Do you mean pure truth literally or metaphorically? I assume you mean literally, which would be a no. I don't love that perception of God, not yet anyway. It may turn out to be a needed perception, in which case, I will stop hating him. This makes me think of something I just read today about Martin Luther... before he wrote his thesis, he hated God because of a common perception of Him that led Luther to believe he didn't deserve God's grace, that he could never measure up. Then a passage of scripture was revealed to him that said grace was based upon faith, not works, and he no longer hated God. A perception of God was made available to him through the scriptures which met his needs as a unique human being.
I think God reveals different perceptions of Himself through the Bible (or other Scriptures) and through Nature, according to one's spiritual needs. I am a person with low to no self-esteem- I need a kind and gentle God, or I will have to hate him due to my wounds. I do not know about you, but I think the perception of God you worship fits your revealed experience and personality, does it not?
I love the perception of God I must based upon who I am. If God reveals more of Himself to me, then, great! He is always. That's the nature of Truth, to continuously reveal Itself in ways we can understand and grasp.

Everyone hates God before they are regenerated. People are naturally evil and think that their evil is good and hate the God that condemns it as evil, because their evil is their hearts desire and their idol.

It is actually a good thing that God punishes the wicked in hell. The saints in heaven will not turn away in disgust at God's judgement. They will applaud it because it is good. God is glorified in all things he does. He is our Father Savior King and Avenger.

Romans 12:19 ESV
19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”

Revelation 14:10-11 ESV
10 he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

Revelation 6:9-11 ESV
9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. 10 They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

Trusting in God's judgement and desiring his will to be done is a key to spiritual growth. Jesus trusted the Father even unto death on a cross. God's plans always work out for the best because he is the wisest being that can be conceived.

 

[Casstranquility]

Are you sure you hate the Lord? Do you really hate anybody? Or could it be a church which has turned you away from the Lord?

I do not think that I hate the Lord at all- I do think I hate a perception of Him. I have really hated some people, but am currently not doing so. It has not been a church but certain Christians and certain perspectives of who God is that turned me away, so to speak, from the Lord. If we are considering that the Lord is revealed through more than just a literal perception of the Bible, then I have only been turned away from Him because of a lack of faith, hard times, and a strange imagination. I used to love hanging out with Jesus, and am hoping to reunite with Him at some point.

Fear doesn't come from God. So when somebody uses fear in an effort to drive home their point. Well...... it doesn't come from God.

I agree. There is no fear in Love.

 

[Casstranquility]

Everyone hates God before they are regenerated. People are naturally evil and think that their evil is good and hate the God that condemns it as evil, because their evil is their hearts desire and their idol.

How do you know when a person has been regenerated? I became a Christian when I was five. My greatest instinct has been to love others. I find that is what many people I know want. I don't really know anyone who thinks their evil is good... that is a psychopath, not regular people. When you write like this, it is hard for me to understand you, because it is not my personal experience. My heart's desire is to love and be loved- is that evil? Or, if we were to go by the Bible, am I already renewed in God's love-for he who knows love loves God?

It is actually a good thing that God punishes the wicked in hell. The saints in heaven will not turn away in disgust at God's judgement. They will applaud it because it is good. God is glorified in all things he does. He is our Father Savior King and Avenger.

I just can't even contemplate such a thing. What use is this punishment? I like things to have a purpose. Punishment serves no purpose except to torment... how can you have a God who only wants revenge-not reconciliation? No, really, how do you really believe in such a God? I can't do it. I'd like to know how it is possible.

Romans 12:19 ESV
19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”

What is God's wrath? I have tried to study the meaning of that word, and I found that it means a gut based movement toward justice-true justice- which according to the Bible is compassionate and merciful! Vengeance is supposed to be the work for justice.
And this is a fairly interesting verse: "I will bear the Lord's wrath, until he pleads me case and establishes my right." Micah 7:9 NIV If one can bear God's wrath and be saved out of it, why not everyone? Micah knew it was for the best. He did not think this wrath against him would last an eternity.
And, also: "You do not stay angry forever but delight to show mercy. You will again have compassion on us; you will tread our sins underfoot and hurl all our iniquities into the depths of the sea." Micah 7:19 NIV

Revelation 14:10-11 ESV
10 he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

Actually, that has kind of a nice metaphor there- drinking the wine of God's wrath. I don't know why, but it is moving, in a way. Especially if wrath and anger are the emotions, the gut wrenching energy toward healing an injustice-which they always are when humans experience them. What about the fact that forever and ever is a denotation of time-one cannot have more than one eternity. I would think one forever would be enough unless that word really is translated from aeon and means an age. I perhaps would be willing to suffer God's wrath for an age or two, if it would in the end bring me into reconciliation with my Beloved.

Trusting in God's judgement and desiring his will to be done is a key to spiritual growth. Jesus trusted the Father even unto death on a cross. God's plans always work out for the best because he is the wisest being that can be conceived.

I would agree with that except I am not keen on the word judgment. Other than that, it sounds like you have a lot of faith in God, and I applaud that. It is something I have always admired about Christians, the deep, passionate faith. Do share more of that if you would.