the apostacy

[TOmNossor]

Do LDS believe that the Holy Spirit indwelled believers after the "apostasy?"

Skylark,





In the past we have (I believe we have) discussed the “gift of the Holy Ghost.” LDS believe that this is an ordinance preformed by someone who has authority. It is very similar to “confirmation” within the Catholic Church. Also we point to the Bible Acts 8:15-18 explains that the authority to baptize is not the same authority to give the “gift of the Holy Ghost.”



The Catholic Church had a large controversy associated with authority to baptize, but they have never wavered in the need for authority to “confirm.”



So, I would say that the Holy Ghost clearly interacted with Christians during the apostasy. Some Christians certainly had virtually constant companionship of the Holy Ghost. But the gift of the Holy Ghost was not available as soon as the authority of the priest/bishop was apostate. I have never tried to define exactly when the authority of the priest/bishop ceased. It has been enough for me to show that the authority of the Pope was not passed from Peter and thus in my opinion is a pious usurpation.



Did the Holy Ghost “indwell” believers during the apostasy? Whatever happened in Acts 8:15-18 did not happen with proper authority during the apostasy, but the Holy Ghost was available to all who sought God.



Charity, TOm

 

[Peterson]

Der Alter
"Many" in Greek = Polus; Large number. Also, Pleistos = the largest number. Also, Pleon = major portion.
The comparatively small groups you mention are "Johnny-come-lately" and are certainly not qualified to fit the Greek definition in Mat. 24:5. Jesus gave this warning as the very first thing that would happen, not something 1800 years down the road. When a group marries the state and gets involved with civil politicking, it no longer represents the Christ of the Bible. Although, it can neatly fit the description of Revelation 17.
Your personal attacks add nothing to the dialogue.

I am not a member of any religious group, nor would I be. My only interest is to get folks to quit being lazy head nodders and crack their Bibles open and do a little independent study if they claim to be followers of Christ.

 

[skylark1]

TOm: So, I would say that the Holy Ghost clearly interacted with Christians during the apostasy. Some Christians certainly had virtually constant companionship of the Holy Ghost.

Skylark: Your view of "apostate" Christianity seems to be much kinder than the view that I think is evident in some of the passages that I have read. Some of what I have read in the BOM (such as 1 Nephi 13), and also some non-doctrinal sources, seems to indicate the belief of a spiritually dead (or worse) church during the alleged apostasy. I realize that I may be interpreting these passages differently than present day LDS.

 

[TOmNossor]

TOm: So, I would say that the Holy Ghost clearly interacted with Christians during the apostasy. Some Christians certainly had virtually constant companionship of the Holy Ghost.

Skylark: Your view of "apostate" Christianity seems to be much kinder than the view that I think is evident in some of the passages that I have read. Some of what I have read in the BOM (such as 1 Nephi 13), and also some non-doctrinal sources, seems to indicate the belief of a spiritually dead (or worse) church during the alleged apostasy. I realize that I may be interpreting these passages differently than present day LDS.

Skylark,



I believe that towards the end of the 2nd Century some Catholic leaders began to usurp authority that was not passed to them by their predecessor. I believe that there were conscious usurpers within the ranks of the Catholic Church. I believe what it says in the D&C 121:39:

We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion.



I believe men called of God and ordained with proper authority within the CoJCoLDS have fallen victim to the truths expressed in this scripture. But, I believe that while there were a number of saints within the Catholic Church and the Reformist movements; there were also a number Reformist leaders and Catholic leaders who ordered the murder of men and women who disagreed with them. Those who followed a desire for power instead of God.



ON TO TOm’s OPINION.

The Church of the Devil in my opinion is the church that asks nothing of its parishioners. Most Protestants do not belong to the church of the Devil. The Devil wants for you to think that you do not need to follow God. You do not need to abstain from pre-marital sex. You do not need to not be lazy. You do not need to be kind to your fellow man. The Devil has some churches that help him spread this message. The Devil has some men who help spread this message. However most churches have the ability to aid in the individual’s subordination of their will to the will of God. A minority of Protestant Churches ask nothing of their attendees. Some Protestant churches start up in order to feed the needs of those who would be homosexuals and do not like to hear it is something God does not want from them. When the Catholic priest does nothing to tell the parishioners that Birth Control is against God’s laws, the Catholic priest is moving his church in the wrong direction.



Do not misunderstand. No amount of works merit salvation. I do not believe there will be a balance beam on judgment day with good works on one side and bad on the other (even a balance beam with Jesus making up the difference). In this life we are to BECOME sons and daughters of God in every way. We are to give the one thing we truly possess to God. That one thing is our will, our ability to choose. A church that does nothing to lead the members to become a son or daughter of God because it says that God requires nothing from them is the Church of the Devil.



Dallin H. Oaks – The Challenge to Become:

The prophet Nephi describes the Final Judgment in terms of what we have become: “And if their works have been filthiness they must needs be filthy; and if they be filthy it must needs be that they cannot dwell in the kingdom of God” (1 Ne. 15:33; emphasis added). Moroni declares, “He that is filthy shall be filthy still; and he that is righteous shall be righteous still” (Morm. 9:14; emphasis added; see also Rev. 22:11-12; 2 Ne. 9:16; D&C 88:35). The same would be true of “selfish” or “disobedient” or any other personal attribute inconsistent with the requirements of God.



So through Christ we are to become children of God. Never will we merit the wonderful things God has for us. But if we subordinate our will to God, eventually, we will become like him. It is what we become that enables us to be desirous of the blessings God has for us. If we are idle and uncaring here, we will not be so filled with love that we want to be more like God than we can understand now. We will not want nor become one who is so filled with love it spills out. I hope to work and grow and love, and I hope that my love becomes so large and so perfect that it spills out of me in ways I do not understand today.



Those who are selfish (like me but worse), those who are carnal, those who are in the Church of the Devil (be it lazy do nothing church, hedonism, or some forms of paganism) will not want the same things I want. One day before or after death, they may see that there is something more that they want, but it will not be their path or plan to reach for it.

After death these people will have unpleasant purging (like Catholic Purgatory), but even after this they will not reach for the fullness of God because they didn’t become someone who wished for the fullness of God.



Those LDS or Protestants or Catholics who misunderstand God will one day hear God say, “This is my way, walk ye in it.” If these misguided people trust God and are totally subordinate to his will regardless of how hard, how unusually, or how bitter the cup, they will say, “Nevertheless, thy will be done.”

Those who do not follow God will say, “But God it would be easier if …” and they will not enjoy the fullness that God wants for all his children.



Charity, TOm

 

[SiSSYGAL]

I have found that for myself, the more I learn about the Bible, the more I learn about God, the more I revere God and God's Word. It makes me and I presume everyone else, want to live and walk with God. Rules are pointless
Children need rules so they can learn discipline and respect. I'm not against rules. When you get to be an adult, rules continue to be necessary for those who do not know and walk with Christ. For those who do and for those who love the Lord with all their heart, soul and might and those who love their neighbor as themselves, rules don't really come into play much if at all.
For this reason, I'm somewhat suspect of churches that make demands of their parishoners. It automatically set the presumption that they don't already know, love and follow God.
Sissygal

 

[Phoenix]

Being like God to a mormon differs vastly from what it means to a Christian:

It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God. . . . He was once a man like us; . . . God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 345-46).

Is this not covered in your doctrine of exhaltation ?

 

[Der Alte]

Der Alter
"Many" in Greek = Polus; Large number. Also, Pleistos = the largest number. Also, Pleon = major portion.
The comparatively small groups you mention are "Johnny-come-lately" and are certainly not qualified to fit the Greek definition in Mat. 24:5. Jesus gave this warning as the very first thing that would happen, not something 1800 years down the road. When a group marries the state and gets involved with civil politicking, it no longer represents the Christ of the Bible. Although, it can neatly fit the description of Revelation 17.
Your personal attacks add nothing to the dialogue.

I am not a member of any religious group, nor would I be. My only interest is to get folks to quit being lazy head nodders and crack their Bibles open and do a little independent study if they claim to be followers of Christ.

You quoted the wrong word in the passage. And have not acknowledged it. You still have not produced any evidence of any marriage between church and state. What personal attack, I simply spoke the truth? You make a lot of claims about how the church is wrong and you produce almost zilch evidence. I have been doing independent study almost as long as you have and I am thoroughly familiar with both Biblical languages. I have not said anything about you and any group I compared your false teachings with those of Koresh and Jones.

 

[Der Alte]

I cannot understand how anybody, especially one with your intellect, could liken the LDS to Jones and Koresh. Those cults failed in tragedy with their leaders. We have passed through many generations of leaders, growing steady and solid, teaching values and lifestyles that serve others, not self.

The evidence is there, but falls under the catagory of needing eyes to see and ears to hear.

Here is the part of my post which you quoted. Please show me where I compared LDS to Jones or Koresh?

I know enough not to follow every Jim Jones, David Koresh, and Peterson who comes along claiming, without any evidence whatsoever, that the church is wrong, has been wrong for 2000 years, and that they are the only one with the truth. "Everybody just leave whatever church you belong to, follow me, and hold out your cup for some nice koolaid."​

And this statement is virtually identical to the claims of every religious group which falls outside of traditional, evangelical Christianity.

"We [WWCG, JW, UPCI, etc., etc., etc.] have passed through many generations of leaders, growing steady and solid, teaching values and lifestyles that serve others, not self.

The evidence is there, but falls under the catagory of needing eyes to see and ears to hear."​

 

[MormonFriend]

... I have not said anything about you and any group I compared your false teachings with those of Koresh and Jones.

Der Alter, I made a comment about your use of Jones and Koresh. Did I misunderstand your application?

 

[MormonFriend]

Here is the part of my post which you quoted. Please show me where I compared LDS to Jones or Koresh?

I know enough not to follow every Jim Jones, David Koresh, and Peterson who comes along claiming, without any evidence whatsoever, that the church is wrong, has been wrong for 2000 years, and that they are the only one with the truth. "Everybody just leave whatever church you belong to, follow me, and hold out your cup for some nice koolaid."
​

And this statement is virtually identical to the claims of every religious group which falls outside of traditional, evangelical Christianity.

"We [WWCG, JW, UPCI, etc., etc., etc.] have passed through many generations of leaders, growing steady and solid, teaching values and lifestyles that serve others, not self.

The evidence is there, but falls under the catagory of needing eyes to see and ears to hear."
​

My humble apologies for assuming that it applied to LDS. You can see, I'm sure that it was a reasonable assumption since the whole thread revolves on the LDS claim of apostasy. But that is no excuse, just a reason.

As for the other point, what can I say? By their fruits you shall know them, and that too requires "needing eyes to see and ears to hear." That is not to point fingers or jab, it is just a valid fact that applies to everyone.

 

[SiSSYGAL]

I have found that for myself, the more I learn about the Bible, the more I learn about God, the more I revere God and God's Word. It makes me and I presume everyone else, want to live and walk with God. Rules are pointless
Children need rules so they can learn discipline and respect. I'm not against rules. When you get to be an adult, rules continue to be necessary for those who do not know and walk with Christ. For those who do and for those who love the Lord with all their heart, soul and might and those who love their neighbor as themselves, rules don't really come into play much if at all.
For this reason, I'm somewhat suspect of churches that make demands of their parishoners. It automatically set the presumption that they don't already know, love and follow God.
Sissygal

 

[SiSSYGAL]

Please give me a couple of illustrations of good fruit. I've heard this before. In fact, the missionary that I talked to said this. He wasn't being sarcastic. In fact, I took it to mean that he felt Mormons produce good fruit. I know what this means to me--a creed reciting traditional Christian --but I also know that Mormons have different definitions.
Sissygal
P.S. I can warn you that I'm not real receptive to anyone saying that Mormons produce good Christians. This is primarily because I've visited the Mormons church twice: Both times I found Mormons to be running, skipping, jumping talking, playing games, reading, paying bills and whispering during the service. It was such a distraction that it was not possible to pray in that room. No one listened to the speaker. Someone got up and started saying that my newly converted son was such a pleasure and wonderful addition to the group. He wasn't listening--he was talking--I nudged him so that he would realize he was the subject of conversation. After both visits, women rushed up to me and invited me to an upcoming party that they insisted I would just love; and they nearly insisted that I come. Mormons love to party I was assured. I prefer my church. People go into the sanctuary ahead of the service and pray. No one dare speak once they enter the sanctuary until we get to the part where you get to speak. There is an aura of God and a feeling of deep respect and love for the people in the room. I know God is with me in the sanctuary and I am at peace. To my knowledge we don't all run out and party afterward. Maybe they do and they simply didn't let me know. I suspect not. Maybe this doesn't sound so nice. But, it's all I have. It's what I came away with after visiting the Mormon church. I had to sit in the hot tub just to relax.
Sissygal

 

[TOmNossor]

Sissygal,

I asked you on another thread.

How long ago did your son convert?

When does he expect to be married?

I am concerned that you are either not attending a CoJCoLDS church service or you are somehow confused about some things. I can help if you like.



I have been to no service that was as unsettled as the one you describe in the CoJCoLDS. I have seen a spectrum and I do embrace a more reverent environment than a few sacrament meetings I have been too, but still nothing like what you describe.



Charity, TOm

 

[SiSSYGAL]

Hi Charity Tom:
You seem to be one of the main posters on this web Site. I wonder what state you live in? Are you a Utahan? I'm in Oregon. My son joined the Mormon Church about this time last year. He just got elevated to Melchdezek. He plans to get married in March. Although, he's in military boot camp and I just received a letter saying he's been sick twice and he's been overnight in the infirmary twice. If this happens to him again, he won't graduate from boot camp with his platoon. He'll join a newer platoon and stay in boot camp longer. This will ruin his wedding plans. I ask in every letter what is making him sick and he never answers this question. He said the drill instructors are rude and lewd and scream out things that he can't repeat and are quite disturbing. He can't imagine that this is condoned. I hope and pray this has nothing to do with whatever it is that is making him sick. It's crossed my mind several times that this is the problem because he has a nervous stomach. (He's not a wimp. In fact, he won the pugil stick contest for his platoon and won a phone call home--same for rifle shooting. He's always been the best shot. He went to Boy Scout Camp numerous times and always came home with the trophy for best shot) Sorry to be so rude--which doesn't mean I won't be again. I'm at my wit's end. It's my believe that my son is not praying to the right God. It's a problem that I'm not getting past.
Sissygal

 

[TOmNossor]

Actually, I am in New Mexico.

Your son has a few options concerning his marriage.

Since he has been in the church for one year he will be able to marry in the Temple if he chooses (assuming his fiancé has been a member for over a year too).

After the Temple ceremony he will be able to have a reception, with some amount of formality if he chooses.

He can also choose to have a civil or religious ceremony before the temple, but there may be some difficulties associated with this. If he where to decide he wanted to do this, he could speak with his Bishop about it.



I actually think there are some very unfortunate things associated with the rules of the Temple. I do not understand them, and you have my sympathies. I will pray that good comes from this in your life.



It does not appear that you are feeling very consoled by our assurances that your son is involved in a Christian religion with salvic efficacy. I hope that this will be evident one day to you and others. God hears all prayers sent toward heaven. Those who seek will find Him.



Charity, TOm

 

[MormonFriend]

....... It does not appear that you are feeling very consoled by our assurances that your son is involved in a Christian religion with salvic efficacy. I hope that this will be evident one day to you and others. God hears all prayers sent toward heaven. Those who seek will find Him.



Charity, TOm

As with TOm, I know that all prayers are heard by God from the honest in heart, regardless of their affiliation. If His children are doing their best they know to do what is right, how could He withhold His love from them? (For that matter, He doesn't withhold His love from anyone, it would be us that do not receive it.) I know that your prayers are heard by the true and living God, setting aside our differences of understanding. So your faith alone has great influence for your son's welfare. And if you do not mind, I will remember him in my prayers as well.

Peace be with you,

Darell

 

[SiSSYGAL]

Thanks, Darell
Sissygal

 

[MormonFriend]

Please give me a couple of illustrations of good fruit. I've heard this before. In fact, the missionary that I talked to said this. He wasn't being sarcastic. In fact, I took it to mean that he felt Mormons produce good fruit. I know what this means to me--a creed reciting traditional Christian --but I also know that Mormons have different definitions.
Sissygal
P.S. I can warn you that I'm not real receptive to anyone saying that Mormons produce good Christians. This is primarily because I've visited the Mormons church twice: Both times I found Mormons to be running, skipping, jumping talking, playing games, reading, paying bills and whispering during the service. It was such a distraction that it was not possible to pray in that room. No one listened to the speaker. Someone got up and started saying that my newly converted son was such a pleasure and wonderful addition to the group. He wasn't listening--he was talking--I nudged him so that he would realize he was the subject of conversation. After both visits, women rushed up to me and invited me to an upcoming party that they insisted I would just love; and they nearly insisted that I come. Mormons love to party I was assured. I prefer my church. People go into the sanctuary ahead of the service and pray. No one dare speak once they enter the sanctuary until we get to the part where you get to speak. There is an aura of God and a feeling of deep respect and love for the people in the room. I know God is with me in the sanctuary and I am at peace. To my knowledge we don't all run out and party afterward. Maybe they do and they simply didn't let me know. I suspect not. Maybe this doesn't sound so nice. But, it's all I have. It's what I came away with after visiting the Mormon church. I had to sit in the hot tub just to relax.
Sissygal

Ask a fair and honest question. Is the world a better place with the contributions that the LDS make? (I hope those who respond do their research.) Set aside our doctorinal differences, because that is what this topic: "by their fruits ye shall know them" ... is about, judging prohpets by their fruits.

This paragraph is from LDS writers on the subject, and reflects to me what "fruits" refer to.

Jesus here sets forth the preeminent test for prophets: the fruits. That is, we may judge and discern a prophet by what comes of the work he sets in motion. Does it bless lives? Is its doctrine sound, consistent, lifting, edifying, and expansive? Is the way of life of the religion clean and virtuous and stable? Does it produce citizens who stream the laws of the land, lead upright lives, and mirror the message of their Master, Jesus Christ? Does this prophet teach a gospel which requires the sacrifice of all things, with the attendant promise that those who lay their all on the altar and continue labor in Christlike fashion shall eventually inherit all that the Father has? Does the religion produce people who are holy, in whom dwell the Spirit of the living God, and in whose midst the gifts and signs and wonders abound-chose ancient miracles which have always attended the true Church? Truly, "by their fruits ye shall know them."

And another:

"By their fruits ye shall know them." "Mormonism" must be judged by its principles; Joseph Smith by the results of his teachings; not by what men say of him, nor even by his own weaknesses. Who pretends that he was perfect, that the Apostles to-day are perfect, that any mortal can be? Men may be servants of God and still have their failings. The Apostles of old had theirs.

As for reverence, in the old days as a child, every week a few children were assigned to stand at the entrances with their arm folded in reverence. Also two children stood at either side of the podium in the same manner, to remind us to be reverent.

I wish we still did that. You are absolutely right about the Spirit we should carry as we enter to worship. With Mormons, we take so much for granted because of the personal closeness the members have for one another. Consider the lay ministry. We all fulfill various positions to staff the different organizations. Then we change places in different organizations. We work so closely with everyone that we become "very friendly and at ease" when we should be focusing on the reverence of the meeting.

Yes, it is a phenomenon that I see most everywhere, but never to the extreem that you discribed. Some parents are clueless as to the disruption their children make. What can we do? Ask them to leave? Feelings are easily violated.
My success in ignoring (as much as possible) the distractions is remembering that we take every opportunity to develop Godly attributes. What better scenario to work on patience, long suffering, and forgiveness, and to love those people despite their offenses.

 

[SiSSYGAL]

I can truthfully say that prior to my son's conversion to Mormonism, I didn't know any Mormons personally. I have known of people who were Mormon here and there in previous jobs, etc. So, my knowledge of Mormons is scant. Since the conversion, I speak of it frequently and I am told that Mromons have a reputation for being good people. As you know from my posts, that's not my personal experience. But--then again, not having a lot of experience or especially not having a counter-balancing experience I speak from a stilted side--hopefully.
You mentioned that the world is a better place because of Mormons. Again, I have no experience so I have no knowledge of what you're speaking. Do they feed the hungry, do they work for justice and peace? I have heard that they take care of their own and everyone else should--do something else and praise them for taking care of their own. Is this statement true? It doesn't sound very charitable. What about world charities? Famine relief? What about women and minorities? What about housing? Do they get involved with Habitat for Humanity? Loaves and Fishes? What about niceness?
The missionaries were so helpful to me until I told them I had no intention of converting to their church. Then, I learned they were told not to come to help me again!! Oh. Well--whatever. Is this true? If it is, it's not nice to my way of thinking. I try to be a good person because I love God. My personal relationship with my savior follows me through the day and keeps me safe in the loving arms of Jesus. It's hard for me to conceive of what a prophet might say to me that would make me a better person or illuminate my way. Mormonism is really different from traditional Christianity and I think they want it that way. History proves--they'll journey miles in the wilderness to a unpotable lake in the middle of a desert where no one else wants to go or live just in order to remain different. But, I'm sure there's nice Mormons out there. You are willing to write what you believe in a gesture of kindness and a bridge to understanding. And, you pray for my son. Well, there you have it. A nice Mormon.

 

[skylark1]

Hi Sissygal,

I am not a Mormon, but I couldn't help responding to your post. I live in Utah. Most of the Mormons that I know are very nice people! It is very different in some ways living here in a neighborhood is probably at least 95% Mormon. Just like in any other segment of society, some people are friendlier than others. But, I am certain that if I needed help that my neighbors would not hestitate to come to my aid. I know that the LDS that live near me support the food bank, homeless shelter, and other programs.

This does not mean that the Book of Mormon and the LDS Church are true, or that I agree with their theology.