the apocalypse

[victorinus]

the four horsemen
-
The rider of the white horse is Constantine from the white sea
-
The rider of the red horse is Mohammed from the red sea, the Antichrist
-
The rider of the black horse is Marx from the black sea, communism
-
The rider of the pale horse is with us now

 

[victorinus]

there are many claims about the antichrist
-that-
seem to ignore what the bible says
-
1 John 2:22 (KJV)

22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

-

you must know what that means

-

back to the apocalypse

 

[Bible2+]

victorinus said in post 522:

there are many claims about the antichrist
-that-
seem to ignore what the bible says
-
1 John 2:22

22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

-

you must know what that means

Note that 1 John 2:22 doesn't require (as is sometimes claimed) that the Antichrist will be a Muslim. For Muslims affirm that Jesus is the Christ (Koran 4:157, Koran 4:171, Koran 5:17, Koran 5:72, Koran 5:75, Koran 9:31). But they say that Jesus Christ is only an apostle of God (Koran 4:171, Koran 5:75; cf. Hebrews 3:1), and not also the divine/human Son of God (Koran 4:171-172, Koran 5:17, Koran 5:72, Koran 9:30-31; contrast Hebrews 1:8). And they deny that Jesus Christ died on the Cross for our sins (Koran 4:157; contrast 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). The Antichrist will not support Islam during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (of Revelation 13:5-18), insofar as he will deny that Jesus is even the Christ (1 John 2:22). He will also contradict many other teachings of Islam.

But even though Islam (in its current form) will not be the religion of the Antichrist during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign, Islam could be, since the latter half of the 7th century AD, Revelation 17:10's seventh empire (the Antichrist's empire will be a different, still-future, 8th empire: Revelation 17:11). Also, because Islam falsely claims that the anti-gospel Koran came through the angel Gabriel, it is one fulfillment of Galatians 1:8-9 (cf. 2 Corinthians 11:14).

Islam is an anti-gospel religion because, (again) even though it affirms that Jesus is the Christ (e.g. Koran 4:157, Koran 5:17,75), it denies that Jesus is the human/divine Son of God (Koran 9:30, Koran 4:171, Koran 5:72). And it denies that he suffered and died on the Cross for our sins (Koran 4:157) and rose physically from the dead on the 3rd day. In order to be saved, people have to believe the gospel that Jesus is both the Christ and the human/divine Son of God (John 3:16,36; 1 John 2:23), and that he suffered and died on the Cross for our sins and rose physically from the dead on the 3rd day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 24:39,46-47, Matthew 20:19, Matthew 26:28).

The reason why it is necessary to believe these things in order to be saved is because it was only as the human/divine Son of God that Jesus' suffering during his Passion could satisfy God the Father's justice (Isaiah 53:11), which requires an infinite amount of human suffering for sin (Matthew 25:46).

-

One way to help Muslims understand how Jesus can be God, from everlasting, is to question them about their understanding of the Muslim belief regarding the Koran. For Islam says that there was no time when the Koran did not exist in a spiritual form in heaven, that it has always coexisted with Allah as his word. So Christians can show Muslims that the Bible says that before Jesus' incarnation, there was no time when he did not exist in a spiritual form in heaven. He has always coexisted with God the Father as God the Word (John 1:1,14).

This is not to suggest that the Muslim claim regarding the Koran is true, or that the book itself is true. Indeed, (again) because Islam falsely claims that the anti-gospel Koran came through the angel Gabriel, it is one fulfillment of Galatians 1:8-9 (cf. 2 Corinthians 11:14).

victorinus said in post 522:

there are many claims about the antichrist
-that-
seem to ignore what the bible says
-
1 John 2:22

22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

-

you must know what that means

Regarding "denieth the Father", it is sometimes claimed that Muslims deny YHWH by saying that the Bible has been corrupted. But while Muslims indeed mistakenly think that the Bible has been corrupted, they do not think that the (YHWH) God of the Bible himself is corrupt, but affirm that he is the true God. For they affirm that the God of the Biblical personages of Adam, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, etc., is the true God. They just always call him by the Arabic name of "Allah" (which simply means "God"), instead of by the Hebrew name "YHWH" God.

-

Also, regarding the non-Islamic religion of the Antichrist, Christians need to be aware that during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18), even though the world will consciously and openly worship Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9), this will not require that the Antichrist's one-world religion will say that Jesus is evil, or will turn the world against Jesus. For almost the entire world reveres Jesus, at least as being a good man. The Antichrist could confirm this basic world belief, but simply (in his words) "clarify" that while Jesus is indeed a good man, he is not the Christ or the Son of God (1 John 2:22). No doubt the Antichrist will also deny that Jesus suffered and died on the Cross for our sins, as this, just as believing that Jesus is the Christ and the Son of God (John 20:31, John 3:36), is one of the core beliefs of the gospel by which people become saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

So what the Antichrist could do is keep the idea of a good Jesus, but strip it of everything by which Jesus saves people from hell. And this would not require that the Antichrist deny Jesus' 2nd coming. Indeed, the Antichrist and his False Prophet (of Revelation 19:20) could even try to employ to their own ends the Biblical prophecy of Jesus' 2nd coming, as well as the Muslim prophecy which says that the miracle-working prophet Jesus will return bodily from heaven in the last days to bring the whole earth into the worship of the true God. For the False Prophet could claim that he is Jesus returned. And he could perform amazing miracles (Revelation 13:13) as purported proof of his claim (cf. John 3:2). This is one reason why it is important to know when and how the real Jesus' 2nd coming will occur (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21).

The person whom the Antichrist will revile is YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36), whom many people mistakenly think of as being (in their words) "the God of only the Old Testament, that cruel and hateful God who commanded people to commit genocide and kill babies (1 Samuel 15:3), whereas Jesus came and preached love for everyone (Matthew 5:44)". The truth is that Jesus confirmed that the God of the Old Testament, YHWH (Deuteronomy 6:4-5, Leviticus 19:18), is the same as the God of the New Testament (Mark 12:29-31), and that the Old Testament is true (Matthew 5:17-18, Luke 24:44-48). Jesus suffered and died for our sins in fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy from YHWH (Isaiah 53; 1 Peter 2:24). And he rose from the dead in fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy from YHWH (e.g. Psalms 16:10, Acts 2:31). Jesus died to establish the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28), which YHWH had foretold in the Old Testament (Jeremiah 31:31-34). And Jesus died to bring about the defeat of Satan (Hebrews 2:14), which YHWH had foretold from even the first book of the Old Testament (Genesis 3:15).

Nonetheless, building on many people's misconceptions of YHWH as being (in their words) "the cruel God of the Old Testament", no doubt one of the Antichrist's chief blasphemies against YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36) will be that YHWH is an evil god. This is one of the ancient blasphemies of Gnosticism, another being the antichrist lie that Christ isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). The world will be deceived into completely rejecting YHWH, and worshipping Satan and the Antichrist instead (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9). But Satan might not be worshipped as "Satan", which most everyone sees as a bad name (it means "Adversary"), but as "Lucifer" (Isaiah 14:12), which means "the morning star". The Antichrist could falsely say that it is YHWH who is the true "Satan", the true "Adversary" of mankind. And he could claim that even 2 Samuel 24:1 and 1 Chronicles 21:1 together prove this by showing that it was the single entity of YHWH/Satan who moved David to number Israel. Of course, the truth is that 2 Samuel 24:1 and 1 Chronicles 21:1 together simply show that YHWH used Satan to move David. YHWH elsewhere rebuked Satan (Zechariah 3:2), so they are in no way the same person.

Near the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, unclean spirits like frogs will come out of the mouths of Lucifer, the Antichrist, and the False Prophet (Revelation 16:13). And these unclean spirits like frogs will go forth and perform amazing miracles to convince the world's armies to gather together at Armageddon (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) (Revelation 16:16) in an attempt to fight and defeat YHWH himself (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19). After gathering together at Armageddon, the armies will travel south and pillage Jerusalem, right before the real Jesus (who is YHWH: John 10:30) returns from heaven and defeats them completely (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:20 to 20:3).

So the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ will be a total shock to the world. The world will have been expecting to wage war against some evil Old Testament god named "YHWH" with the help of the good Jesus (played by the False Prophet) and with the help of the true and beneficent Christ/God (played by Lucifer) and with the help of the good Son of God (played by the Antichrist) and with the help of the good angels of God (played by the fallen angels of Lucifer: Revelation 12:9). But then instead of some evil god appearing in the sky, the world could see the glorious sign of the Cross (cf. Matthew 24:30), the symbol of the good YHWH suffering and dying for our sins (Acts 20:28b). And then the world will see the glorious appearance of the real Jesus, sitting on a white horse descending from the sky (Revelation 19:11-21).

When the people of the world realize at that moment how thoroughly they have been duped, and see in the sky the huge angelic armies (2 Thessalonians 1:7, Matthew 25:31) of the true Jesus, the true Christ, the true Son of God, and the good YHWH, who are all the one and the same Jesus Christ of Nazareth, they could utterly mourn and wail for themselves (Matthew 24:30, Revelation 1:7), knowing in their spirits that Jesus has returned in wrath to destroy most of them for their unrepentant sins (2 Thessalonians 1:8-9, Revelation 19:15-21).

 

[keras]

knowing in their spirits that Jesus has returned in wrath to destroy most of them for their unrepentant sins

This is a common error.
The wrath of God is completed after the seven plagues. Revelation 15:1
The plagues come out of the 7 Bowls and at the Seventh Bowl, a Voice from the Throne says: It is completed! Revelation 16:17
The wrath of God mentioned at the Return, Revelation 19:15, refers back to the Sixth Seal, which is the same event as Revelation 14:17-20...the winepress of God's wrath

At the glorious Return, Jesus simply disposes of the attacking armies by the Sword of His Word and chains up Satan.

We are not given all that much info about things like Armageddon, the False Prophet, etc, and speculation about them is just that. We will know more as events take place.

 

[victorinus]

the abomination of desolation
-
so what is in the holy place now?
back to daniel
back to the apocalypse

do you understand what the holy place is?

 

[Bible2+]

keras said in post 524:

The wrath of God is completed after the seven plagues. Revelation 15:1

Revelation 15:1 means that the tribulation wrath of God will be completed with the 7 plagues of the 7 vials (Revelation 16). Revelation 15:1 is not contradicting that Jesus' post-tribulation 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-31) will also involve God's wrath (Revelation 19:15).

Only after the destruction of Revelation's symbolic (and worldwide) "Babylon" at the 7th vial, the final event of the tribulation (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2), will Jesus return and rapture (gather together) and marry the church (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

keras said in post 524:

The plagues come out of the 7 Bowls and at the Seventh Bowl, a Voice from the Throne says: It is completed! Revelation 16:17

Revelation 16:17 ¶And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

Note that in the Bible, just as outside of it, the phrase "It is done" can refer to different things in different contexts (Ezekiel 39:8, Luke 14:22, Revelation 16:17, Revelation 21:6).

Revelation 16:17 means that the tribulation will be done, in the sense of completed, at the 7th vial, whereas Revelation 21:6, for example, refers to the completion, some 1,000 years later, of the creation of the new heaven and earth (Revelation 21:5,1). For between the time of the completion of the tribulation (Revelation 16:17) and the completion of the creation of the new heaven and earth (Revelation 21:5,1) will occur the time of the 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7-21), the subsequent time of the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6), the subsequent time of the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10), and then the subsequent time of the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15).

Also, note that Jesus uses a similar phrase, "It is finished", on the Cross (John 19:30), whereas "It is finished" refers to something else in a different context (James 1:15).

keras said in post 524:

We are not given all that much info about things like Armageddon . . .

Per Strong's Concordance and Greek and Hebrew Dictionary, in Revelation 16:16 the original Greek word "Armageddon" (G0717) comes from the Hebrew words "har" (H2022) and "Megiddown" (H4023).

The Hebrew word "har" (H2022) when used before a place name means "the mount of", like it is used in Judges 2:9 to refer to "the mount of" Ephraim. And the Hebrew word "Megiddown" or "Megiddow" (H4023) refers to the place called "Megiddo", which is in northern Israel (Joshua 17:11, Judges 1:27, Judges 5:19; 1 Chronicles 7:29).

So "Armageddon" (G0717), "har" (H2022) "Megiddown" (H4023), refers to the "the mount of Megiddo". This is a hill that overlooks a large valley in northern Israel. It is in this valley of Armageddon that the world's armies will gather (Revelation 16:14,16), using it only as a staging area, before they proceed south to pillage Jerusalem, right before Jesus returns and defeats them (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:19-21).

The Hebrew word "Megiddown" or "Megiddow" (H4023) means "rendezvous" (Strong's Hebrew Dictionary), as it is derived from the Hebrew word "gadad" (H1413) which can be translated as "gather themselves together" (Psalms 94:21) or "gather thyself in troops" (Micah 5:1) or "assembled themselves by troops" (Jeremiah 5:7).

keras said in post 524:

We are not given all that much info about things like Armageddon . . .

"Armageddon" in Revelation 16:16 should be understood within the context of the 7 last plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath (Revelation chapters 15-16), the final stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

At the first of the 7 vials, an awful sore will appear on those people who will have received the Antichrist's mark and worshipped his image (Revelation 16:2). At the 2nd vial, the sea will become like the blood of a dead man, and every living creature in the sea will die (Revelation 16:3). At the 3rd vial, all natural, surface sources of fresh water will become blood (Revelation 16:4). At the 4th vial, men will be scorched with fire shot out from the sun (Revelation 16:8). This would be a solar-flare coronal mass ejection of solar plasma, which could make its way down to the surface of the earth due to the earth's magnetic field being disrupted during a magnetic-pole reversal which could occur near the end of the future tribulation.

At the 5th vial, the whole world will be plunged into literal darkness (Revelation 16:10). At the 6th vial, unclean spirits like frogs will come out of the mouths of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan: Revelation 12:9), and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast), and the False Prophet (Revelation 16:13). And these unclean spirits like frogs will go forth and perform amazing miracles to convince the world's armies to gather together in an attempt to defeat YHWH God (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19). The Euphrates will dry up so that the armies of "the kings of the east" (Revelation 16:12) (i.e. the vast armies of China, India, Pakistan, Japan, Iran, Indonesia) can easily cross the riverbed and gather at the "place" called Armageddon (Revelation 16:16) (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel). Once they have gathered there, as only a staging area, with all the other armies of the world (Revelation 16:14,16), they will not wage battle there (that is why the Bible does not refer to a "battle" of Armageddon). Instead, they will travel south to pillage Jerusalem, right before Jesus returns and defeats them (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:19-21).

At the 7th vial, right before Jesus returns (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21), there will be a huge earthquake which will affect the whole world (Revelation 16:18-20), and 100-pound hailstones will pummel the earth (Revelation 16:21). The 7th vial will also be when Revelation's symbolic (and worldwide) "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) will be destroyed (Revelation 16:19).

 

[Bible2+]

victorinus said in post 525:

victorinus said:

the abomination of desolation . . .

do you understand what the holy place is?

Regarding the "abomination of desolation", Daniel 11:31 was typically fulfilled by the abomination of desolation in 1 Maccabees 1:54, which occurred in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 2nd Jewish temple in Jerusalem in the time of Antiochus IV. But per Jesus' statement in Matthew 24:15, the church will see the abomination of desolation in Daniel 11:31 fulfilled (antitypically) in the future, when the church will see the abomination of desolation stand in the holy place (of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem). This future abomination of desolation could be a standing, android image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:15) which his followers ("they") will put in the holy place of the temple (Daniel 11:31) to be worshipped (Revelation 13:15), after they have stopped the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices which the ultra-Orthodox Jews will have restarted in front of the temple (Daniel 11:31). This image will pollute the holy place of the temple (Daniel 11:31).

The Antichrist will then fulfill Daniel 11:36 and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 by sitting himself (at least one time) in the temple and proclaiming himself God. By the power of Satan (the dragon, Revelation 12:9), the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will then rule and be worshipped by all the nations of the earth for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:4-18), and will physically overcome Biblical Christians (not in hiding) in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Also, from the day on which (antitypically) "the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be 1,290 days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the 1,335 days" (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). Also, because the Antichrist will fulfill Daniel 11:31 antitypically (Matthew 24:15) and will fulfill Daniel 11:36 for the first (and only) time, then he will also fulfill all of Daniel 11:21-45 (the first part of it antitypically, and the rest for the first and only time) when he arises on the world stage, for that passage refers to the career of the same man. And since the Antichrist will fulfill all of Daniel 11:21-45 when he arises on the world stage, then just preceding his arising on the world stage, Daniel 11:13-19 could be fulfilled antitypically by a future, Iraqi Baathist General completely defeating and occupying Israel and Egypt with a huge Iraqi Army (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath").

 

[victorinus]

the little book
-
Revelation 10:11 (KJV)

11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.
-
he ate the little book
-
I ate the little book
-
back to the apocalypse

 

[Bible2+]

victorinus said in post 528:

Revelation 10:11 (KJV)

11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

John's prophecies in the book of the Apocalypse (Revelation) were originally sent to the 1st century AD church (Revelation chapters 1-3), which probably expected all of his prophecies to be fulfilled shortly thereafter (shortly from the viewpoint of men, not God). But when Revelation's future prophecies (Revelation 4:1b) in chapters 6 to 22 did not happen right away, as the centuries passed the church began to pay less and less attention to Revelation. It is only in modern times that a significant portion of the church has become interested again in Revelation and the future fulfillment of (the never fulfilled) chapters 6 to 22, so that, in effect, John is, through the enduring book of Revelation, "prophesying again" (Revelation 10:11), this time to the modern church, just as he prophesied originally to the early church.

Also, just as Jesus' 2nd coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 has always been relevant to Christians despite the fact that it has never been fulfilled, but will be fulfilled almost entirely literally in our future, so the highly-detailed and chronological events of the just-preceding tribulation in Revelation chapters 6 to 18, and the subsequent millennium and other events in Revelation chapters 20 to 22, have always been relevant to Christians despite the fact that they have never been fulfilled, but will be fulfilled almost entirely literally in our future.

To put it another way, the future fulfillment of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, before Jesus returns immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), should be relevant to every Christian regardless of whether or not he thinks that he will still be alive to go through it, just as, for example, the past fulfillment of Genesis chapters 1 to 11 should be relevant to every Christian regardless of him not being alive at that time to experience it. For all scripture regarding all times is profitable to all Christians in all times (2 Timothy 3:16).

victorinus said in post 528:

he ate the little book

Revelation 10:10 And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.

Here the angel and the little book could refer to a powerful, unfallen angel giving the apostle John understanding of the little book of Daniel, which foretells the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7), which John was about to see from four different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5-18, Revelation 14:9-13).

 

[victorinus]

John's prophecies in the book of the Apocalypse (Revelation) were originally sent to the 1st century AD church (Revelation chapters 1-3),

when john the baptist wrote the first apocalypse, the time was near in that he was preparing the way for Jesus

 

[victorinus]

who is antipas?
-
tertullian 225 mentions him
victorinus 303 does not
eusebius 340 does not
-
tertullian also knows about the seven churches
victorinus does not
eusebius does not
-
the only reasonable explanation for this
-is-
there were two different versions of the apocalypse
-
one that had antipas and the seven churches
-and-
the other that did not

 

[victorinus]

so how did tertulian get his copy of the apocalypse?
-
"There have been many works attributed to Tertullian in the past which have since been determined to be almost definitely written by others"
-
they list a number of questionable works but it does not include
-Scorpiace-
which has references to antipas and the seven churches

 

[victorinus]

Recapitulation
-
is a theory developed to improve our understanding of the Apocalypse. Victorinus of Pettau in the third century was the first to show the same events were being repeated in different visions. Therefore the sequence of chapters cannot be considered necessarily in chronological order. Most commentaries on the Apocalypse have adopted this theory. It has also been described as parallelism

see what augustine had to say about this

 

[victorinus]

new jerusalem
-
new york
new england
new rome
-
how do you become a new something?
-
jerusalem was the center for the jews
what would be the center for the christians?
rome?
that would make it the new jerusalem
-
it has the river running through it 22:1
it has three gates in each direction 21:13

 

[Straightshot]

I don't think so .... not even close

Let the Lord speak on the matter

Revelation
21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

21:11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

21:13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.

21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

21:15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.

21:16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

21:17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

21:18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.

21:19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;

21:20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.

21:21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.

21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

21:26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

 

[victorinus]

Let the Lord speak on the matter

for those who don't have a bible
-and-
for those who don't know how to find the bible on the internet
-
thank you

 

[victorinus]

Blessed is he that watcheth

 

[Bible2+]

victorinus said in post 537:

Blessed is he that watcheth

Amen, for:

Revelation 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Here, Jesus is encouraging and warning those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at the time of the 6th vial (Revelation 16:12), near the end of the future tribulation. They will still be waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Jesus will be encouraging them to hang on just a little longer until his 2nd coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, right after the destruction of Revelation's symbolic (and worldwide) "Babylon" at the 7th vial (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2 to 20:3).

Revelation 16:15 could be the same blessing as Daniel 12:11-12.

victorinus said in post 537:

Blessed is he that watcheth

This brings to mind a similar passage:

Mark 13:35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.
37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

Here, when we are told to "watch" for Jesus' 2nd coming, the original Greek word (gregoreuo: G1127) translated as "watch" does not mean (as is sometimes thought) to stare with our eyes hoping to see someone appear at any moment. Instead, it means "to keep awake" (Strong's Greek Dictionary), like in Matthew 26:40, 1 Thessalonians 5:6, and Mark 13:36-37.

We are to keep spiritually awake as we wait for Jesus' 2nd coming. For if we fall spiritually asleep, that is, fall into backsliding, there is no assurance that we will recover our right relationship with Jesus before his 2nd coming (Matthew 24:48-51), just as if we fall physically asleep waiting for something to happen, there is no assurance that we will wake back up in time to see it happen.

During the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, Christians will have to "watch" (stay awake, spiritually) for Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:42-43, Matthew 25:13, Luke 21:36), which Jesus has just finished saying will not occur until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). For if a Christian is not "watching" (staying awake, spiritually) for the 2nd coming, it will take that Christian by surprise (cf. the if principle of Revelation 3:3b). And that Christian will lose his or her salvation at that time because of such things as unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).

Also, even when Christians know the truth that Jesus' 2nd coming will not occur until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31), they still need to live each day knowing that any of them could die at any time (Luke 12:20, James 4:14).

victorinus said in post 537:

Blessed is he that watcheth

Revelation 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Regarding the "I come as a thief" part of this verse, it brings to mind a similar verse:

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

The mistaken, pre-tribulation rapture view feels that this verse supports the idea of an imminent, pre-tribulation, secret coming of Jesus to rapture the church and begin the tribulation. But not all thieves in the night come secretly, like cat burglars. Some like to rob homes via what is called a home invasion, which is quite obvious, and can involve the thieves not only stealing, but also killing and destroying (John 10:10; 2 Thessalonians 1:8-10, Revelation 19:7-21).

Jesus' coming as a thief in the night (1 Thessalonians 5:2, Matthew 24:43-44, Revelation 16:15) does not mean that he will come secretly. "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trump of God" (1 Thessalonians 4:16), "with a great sound of a trumpet" (Matthew 24:31). And "as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" (Matthew 24:27,43-44). "Behold, I come as a thief" (Revelation 16:15), "Behold, he cometh with clouds [1 Thessalonians 4:17]; and every eye shall see him" (Revelation 1:7).

Similarly, Jesus' coming as a thief in the night does not mean that his coming is imminent. For he cannot come until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Jesus' second coming as a thief in the night (1 Thessalonians 5:2) means that he will come even upon Christians when they are not expecting him only if they stop watching (staying awake, spiritually) during the tribulation. Compare the if principle of Revelation 3:3. Also, as we saw above, some in the church will still be alive on the earth during the tribulation's final stage, still watching (staying awake, spiritually) for Jesus' second coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). So his second coming will not overtake them like a thief (1 Thessalonians 5:4, Matthew 24:43).

Regarding Jesus' second coming as a thief to the unsaved world, when it is not expecting him (1 Thessalonians 5:2-4, Matthew 24:39), nothing requires that the unsaved world will be expecting Jesus' second coming after the tribulation. For during the tribulation, the unsaved world could come to believe that his second coming has already happened (Matthew 24:24-26).

 

[victorinus]

During the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18,

don't ignore the past
-
tribulation is part of the test
-
"Many shall be refined, purified, and tested, but the wicked shall prove wicked; none of them shall have understanding, but the wise shall have it."
-
daniel 12:10 nab

 

[Bible2+]

victorinus said in post 539:

don't ignore the past
-
tribulation is part of the test
-
"Many shall be refined, purified, and tested, but the wicked shall prove wicked; none of them shall have understanding, but the wise shall have it."
-
daniel 12:10 nab

Daniel 12:10 refers to the time of Daniel 12:11-12, which will occur during the second half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

Similarly, Daniel 11:33-35 refers to the persecution of people in the church (not in hiding) throughout the world during the latter half of the tribulation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-13), immediately after which tribulation, Jesus will return and gather together (rapture) the church (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).