the apocalypse

[victorinus]

Where is the idea of reincarnation confirmed by scripture?

mat 24:14
mat 24:34
rev 20:5
these are the only ones I can give you
-but-
others claim there are many more

 

[Postvieww]

mat 24:14
mat 24:34
rev 20:5
these are the only ones I can give you
-but-
others claim there are many more

I see no relationship of the classic definition of reincarnation to the scriptures you provided. Can you elaborate?

 

[victorinus]

I see no relationship of the classic definition of reincarnation to the scriptures you provided. Can you elaborate?

thank you for the question which I will answer with more questions
-
how does the gospel reach everyone?
how does this generation not pass until the end?
how do the rest of the dead live again?

 

[Bible2+]

victorinus said in post 483:

how do the rest of the dead live again?

Via resurrection (John 5:28-29). Just as Revelation 20:6 refers to the "first resurrection" before the thousand years, so Revelation 20:5a would refer to a second resurrection, after the thousand years, i.e. at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15).

Note that there is no reincarnation, for it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this the judgment (Hebrews 9:27).

 

[Postvieww]

thank you for the question which I will answer with more questions
-
how does the gospel reach everyone?
how does this generation not pass until the end?
how do the rest of the dead live again?

Victorinus said:

thank you for the question which I will answer with more questions

-

how does the gospel reach everyone?

By believers or angels preaching it.

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.


Mark 13:10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.


Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

1 Corinthians 9:14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.


Revelation 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

how does this generation not pass until the end?

If you are referring to :


Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

I believe when taken in context verse 34 refers to the generation that sees “all these things” verse 33, that Jesus described.


You believe it refers to the generation Jesus was actually speaking to. Your belief requires you to fit in past events from history to make it work out in your favor. The toughest one IMO is the return of Christ and the resurrection. You must come up with some spiritual explanation that does away with a literal physical return of Christ and a literal resurrection, which you cannot point to from recorded history. My belief sees Jesus’s words as a warning and description for a future “generation” which I believe we are in right now.

There is no reconciling these differences,I will not change you and you will not change me the best we can hope for is the readers of these forums will see the truth when each of us makes our case.

how do the rest of the dead live again?

If you refer to:


Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.





I believe that refers to the literal resurrection of the unrighteous dead to stand before the great white throne judgement.


I say unrighteous dead because of verse 13 &14.


13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.


14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.








Now its your turn to answer my question.

 

[victorinus]

-
Now its your turn to answer my question.

I answered your question as well as mine.
-
reincarnation
-
I don't understand your answer to any of them

 

[Goatee]

the apocalypse
-
666 -
babylon the great - constantinople -
rider of the white horse - constantine - from the white sea (mediterranean)
rider of the red horse - mohammed - from the red sea
rider of the black horse - marx - from the black sea
the first beast - the roman empire -
the second beast - islam -
the seven heads - the seven dynasties of the roman empire -
the ten horns - the ten islamic dynasties -
the thousand years - the byzantine empire -
the three johns - john the baptist and two more johns -
the two witnesses - church and state -
-
the timeline of the apocalypse
-
daniel
-
it's a puzzle
-
this is twenty years of research -
will discuss the results -
will present the books used -
looking forward to discussing all aspects of the apocalypse -
I chose not to use the Historicist Only tag because I want to include all in this dialogue

All interpretation my friend. Many interpretation each believing they are right!

 

[victorinus]

All interpretation my friend. Many interpretation each believing they are right!

-so-
what is new?
-
how many identify all the players?
-and-
how many make it fit history?
-
I will wait for your answer

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Bible2+]

vinsight4u said in post 489:

Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth shall pass away...v 36....that day...v 40...Then shall...ch 25 Then shall...
v 14 For.../as in because
...v41...Depart from Me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire...v 46...these shall go away into everlasting punishment..."

Regarding Matthew 24:35, it is simply referring to the eternal nature of Jesus' Word (cf. 1 Peter 1:24-25), not to the timing of the subsequent verses. For Matthew 24:36 is referring to the timing of Jesus' 2nd coming in Matthew 24:37-51, as in Matthew 24:30, Matthew 24:27, and Matthew 24:3, and as in Matthew 25:10, Matthew 25:13, Matthew 25:19, and Matthew 25:31.

This is the same (never fulfilled) 2nd coming as shown in the Apocalypse (Revelation) 19:7 to 20:3.

*******

vinsight4u said in post 490:

Flesh and blood shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

This refers to people in mortal/corruptible flesh and blood bodies, as opposed to people in immortal/incorruptible resurrection "flesh and bone" bodies (possibly without blood as we know it) like Jesus was resurrected into on the 3rd day after his death (Luke 24:39,46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4,21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Romans 8:23-25).

1 Corinthians 15:50 means that people in mortal bodies won't inherit the eternal (as opposed to the preceding, millennial) aspect of the kingdom of God, which the Apocalypse (Revelation) shows will be on the new earth, in the descended New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:1 to 22:15), after the future millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7 to 22:15).

1 Corinthians 15:50 doesn't require (as is sometimes claimed) that no people in mortal bodies will inherit the millennial aspect of the kingdom, which will be on the present earth. For the elect Jews who won't become believers until Jesus' 2nd coming (Romans 11:25-29, Zechariah 12:10-14) could inherit the millennial aspect of the kingdom (Zechariah 14:5-21, Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30) in their mortal bodies. For the resurrection/changing of believers into immortal physical bodies (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53) could be experienced only by those who had become believers before the 2nd coming.

Also, 1 Corinthians 15:50 doesn't require that no people in mortal bodies will even enter the millennial aspect of the kingdom, i.e. without inheriting it. For just as people can enter someone's house and stay there for awhile without inheriting that house, so the people left alive at the 2nd coming (Matthew 24:39b-40) who won't get saved at that time will enter the millennial aspect of the kingdom in their mortal bodies without inheriting the kingdom. Instead, they will be its forced subjects (Zechariah 14:16-19, Psalms 66:3), ruled over with a rod of iron by Jesus and the physically resurrected church (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2).

Similarly, 1 Corinthians 15:50 doesn't require that no people in mortal bodies can even enter the 3rd-heaven aspect of the kingdom, i.e. without inheriting it. For at the time of Apocalypse (Revelation) 11:11-12, at one point during the future tribulation, the 2 witnesses will be in resuscitated mortal bodies, like, for example, the resuscitated mortal bodies of Lazarus and Tabitha (John 11:43-44, Acts 9:36-40). For the resurrection of believers into immortal physical bodies won't happen until Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which won't occur until after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). And when Revelation 11:12 shows that the 2 witnesses will ascend up to the 3rd heaven in their resuscitated mortal bodies, it doesn't say that they will inherit the 3rd heaven, just as when Paul says that he at one point during his lifetime could have been taken to the 3rd heaven in his mortal body (2 Corinthians 12:2-7), he doesn't say that he inherited the 3rd heaven. And just as when Enoch and Elijah were taken to the 3rd heaven in their mortal bodies (Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:11), it doesn't say that they inherited the 3rd heaven.

 

[victorinus]

what happened in the year 666?
-
back to the apocalypse

don't think you will find this anywhere else

 

[Postvieww]

-so-
what is new?
-
how many identify all the players?
-and-
how many make it fit history?
-
I will wait for your answer

Victornius said:

how many make it fit history?

This appears to be the problem, making “it fit history”. Especially when it hasn’t happed yet.


When one tries to force history into some of these prophecies, the literalness of many scriptures has to be ignored in favor of spiritualized personal opinion to “make it fit”. Examples, a literal coming of the Lord seen by every eye, a literal resurrection of the dead at the last day, a literal antichrist who fulfills all of the scriptural criteria, not just a bad man of history that someone can ”make to fit”, there have been dozens of these.

 

[victorinus]

Victornius said:

how many make it fit history?

This appears to be the problem, making “it fit history”. Especially when it hasn’t happed yet.

you won't have any trouble fitting your interpretation into the future

 

[Postvieww]

you won't have any trouble fitting your interpretation into the future

The goal is not to make a view fit into the future but to recognize it when it happens. Many did not recognize Jesus at His first coming even though He fulfilled scripture precisely. IMO many of the events “made to fit” history, do not pass the literalness test of scripture.

 

[victorinus]

Many did not recognize Jesus at His first coming even though He fulfilled scripture precisely.

those who did not recognize Jesus are
those who did not have the correct interpretation of scripture

 

[Postvieww]

those who did not recognize Jesus are
those who did not have the correct interpretation of scripture

My point exactly!

If one believes many of these events have already happened they will not recognize them when they actually do take place .

 

[victorinus]

those who did not recognize Jesus are
those who did not have the correct interpretation of scripture

a reasonable jew taking a hard look at history should be able to see that Jesus must have been the one they were looking for

 

[victorinus]

My point exactly!

If one believes many of these events have already happened they will not recognize them when they actually do take place .

take some time to think about this
-
the jews are still looking for the first coming

 

[Riberra]

No one is punished for taking the mark, or
following the beast.

Not true.
Revelation 14:9-12
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.