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the apocalypse

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Postvieww said in post 493:

This appears to be the problem, making “it fit history”. Especially when it hasn’t happed yet.

Good point.

For Apocalypse (Revelation) chapters 6 to 22 are still future to us, because they are about "things which must be hereafter" (Revelation 4:1b); and just as Jesus' 2nd coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 has never been fulfilled, for nowhere in history books do we find its fulfillment, so the highly-detailed events of the preceding tribulation in Revelation chapters 6 to 18 have never been fulfilled, for nowhere in history books do we find their fulfillment.

That is, the tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which Jesus will return immediately after (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), hasn't started yet. It will begin with a horrible war, which, with its aftermath of famines and epidemics, will end up killing 1/4 of the world (Revelation 6:4-8). The "great sword" of this war (Revelation 6:4) could be Israel's nuclear weapons. After this war, there will be a terrible series of natural disasters historically unprecedented in their magnitude, such as a gigantic volcanic eruption (Revelation 6:12-14), possibly of the Yellowstone Caldera, and then the collapse into the ocean of another erupting volcano (Revelation 8:8-9), possibly one of the Canary Islands, the collapse of which could set up a huge tsunami which could destroy the eastern seaboard of the U.S.

If such a tsunami occurs, it could also cause a string of awful, Fukushima-type, nuclear-meltdown radiation disasters in the nuclear power plants and their nuclear-waste storage facilities all along the eastern seaboard of the U.S. Also, if the tsunami breaks open the germ-containment structures on Plum Island, just off the coast of Connecticut, especially-deadly viruses and bacteria could be washed inland and spread across the U.S. and Canada as they infect animals and people.

After the volcanic activity and possible tsunami, a comet will strike the earth (Revelation 8:10-11), possibly in the U.S. and Canadian Great Lakes region. As the comet falls from the sky, it will look like a great star, or like a burning lamp in the sky (Revelation 8:10). It will strike a region of the earth which contains 1/3 of the world's fresh surface water (Revelation 8:10b), and it will contain some poisonous element which will poison that water so that many who drink from it will die (Revelation 8:11b).

Sometime after that, weird locust-like beings will swarm up from the bottomless pit of the earth to torment mankind with excruciating stings for 5 months (Revelation 9:2-10). The world could see them as "aliens" who had been hibernating for thousands of years in a cavern deep underground. The locust-like beings won't kill anyone, but they will make those they sting want to die, the pain will be so bad (Revelation 9:5-6).

After that, an army of 200 million weird horse-like beings and their (possibly unclean spirit) riders will come upon the earth (Revelation 9:16-19). If they descend from the sky in spaceships, the world could see them as aliens. But they and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") could (falsely) say that they are YHWH God's main army. In fact, they could be loyal to Lucifer (Satan, the dragon, Revelation 12:9). The 4 fallen angels now bound at the Euphrates who will lead this army (Revelation 9:14-16) could employ it to make mankind utterly desperate before its complete takeover by Lucifer and the Antichrist mid-tribulation (Revelation 12:9 to 13:18). For when this army starts killing 1/3 of mankind (Revelation 9:16-19), then could also begin one of the biggest deceptions ever wrought on humanity. For the Antichrist, who by that time could have managed to have been elected as the President of a Mediterranean Union formed by the joining of the European Union with an Arab Union stretching from Oman to Morocco, could announce to the world that he has sent a mental distress call to (what he could call) "My Father, our Lord Lucifer, to come with his legions of angels, and rescue mankind from this murderous army of YHWH".

(And all of this will be part of only the 1st half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.)

It is at this point that Lucifer and his fallen angels could be cast down out of heaven to the earth permanently after losing a mid-tribulation war in heaven (Revelation 12:7-9). But instead of coming down as a defeated force, they could descend for all the world to see in gigantic, magnificent golden spaceships onto the "Champ de Mars", Mars being the same as Marduk the dragon, the chief god of ancient Babylon. The "Champ de Mars" is the large open area in front of the Eiffel Tower in Paris. After landing there, Lucifer, a literal 7-headed, red dragon (Revelation 12:3,9), could emerge in great splendor and command his angels to capture the army of 200 million weird horse-like beings and their (possibly unclean spirit) riders, who could then pretend to defect from serving YHWH to serving Lucifer. Lucifer could then confirm that he has come to rescue mankind because the Antichrist, who he could say is his only-begotten "Son", called upon him (like in an Antichrist counterfeit of Matthew 26:53). Lucifer and the Antichrist could then be received wholeheartedly by the unsaved world as the saviors of mankind. And the unsaved world could be left thinking (mistakenly) that Lucifer and his angels were more powerful than even YHWH God's main army.

Lucifer and the Antichrist, along with the Antichrist's miracle-working False Prophet, will then deceive the world into actually worshipping Lucifer and the Antichrist and a speaking (possibly an android) image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-16, Revelation 19:20; 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). And everyone will be made to receive a (possibly scarification) mark of the Antichrist either on their right hand or forehead, consisting of either the Antichrist's name or some representation of the gematrial number of his name (666) (Revelation 13:16-18). After Lucifer and the Antichrist have ruled the world for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:4-18), YHWH will send 7 vials of wrath against the unsaved world (Revelation 16).

Near the end of these 7 vials, unclean spirits like frogs will come out of the mouths of Lucifer, the Antichrist, and the False Prophet (Revelation 16:13). And these unclean spirits like frogs will go forth and perform amazing miracles to convince the world's armies to gather together at Armageddon (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) (Revelation 16:16) to battle against YHWH himself (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19). After gathering together at Armageddon as a staging area, the world's armies will travel south and pillage Jerusalem, right before Jesus (who is YHWH: John 10:30) returns from heaven and defeats them completely (Revelation 19:11 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:2-21).
 
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victorinus said in post 496:

those who did not recognize Jesus are
those who did not have the correct interpretation of scripture

It is sometimes claimed that the unbelieving Jews rejected Jesus at his first coming because they interpreted the Bible's prophecies literally.

But that was not the problem. Instead, they did not see the contrast between the Old Testament prophecies regarding the Messiah's/the Christ's coming, with some prophecies showing him coming to be meekly crucified for our sins (Isaiah 53, Psalms 22), and others showing him literally descending from heaven to wage war and to physically reign on the earth (Zechariah 14, Micah 4:1-4), which will be fulfilled in our future.

Also, people did not recognize, for example, Zechariah 9:9's literal fulfillment of the Messiah/Christ humbly riding into Jerusalem on a donkey (John 12:14-16, cf. Luke 19:33-44), and, for other examples, that Zechariah 12:10 and Psalms 34:20 were literal (John 19:34-37), just as Matthew 20:19, Mark 10:34, and Luke 24:7 were literal (1 Corinthians 15:3-4).
 
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victorinus

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and just as Jesus' 2nd coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3 has never been fulfilled, for nowhere in history books do we find its fulfillment
the events of 19 whatever they may be do not have to precede those of 20
-
they are separate visions and should be treated as such
 
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victorinus

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It is sometimes claimed that the unbelieving Jews rejected Jesus at his first coming because they interpreted the Bible's prophecies literally.
not only did they misinterpret scripture
-but-
the jews continue to misinterpret history which clearly demonstrates Jesus is the one
 
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Postvieww

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the events of 19 whatever they may be do not have to precede those of 20
-
they are separate visions and should be treated as such

It is clear the events of 20 follow the events of 19, how is it “maybe” you believe that not to be the case?
 
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victorinus

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It is clear the events of 20 follow the events of 19, how is it “maybe” you believe that not to be the case?
-
most bible scholars starting with victorinus believed in recapitulation which holds that each vision of the apocalypse must be evaluated all by itself
-
it is the only way to make sense of it
-
 
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most bible scholars starting with victorinus believed in recapitulation which holds that each vision of the apocalypse must be evaluated all by itself
-
it is the only way to make sense of it
-

I agree with that, but that does not answer how you believe 20 “maybe” does not follow 19. When evaluating the events of each, 20 must follow 19.
 
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victorinus

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timeline of the apocalypse

30 john the baptist writes the first apocalypse
67 new jerusalem, rev 21:2, linus replaces peter in rome
68 first of seven heads, end of the first dynasty julio-claudian, rev 17:10
96 second of the seven heads, end of flavian dynasty

192 third of the seven heads, end of the adoptive and antonine emperors
235 fourth of the seven heads, end of House of Severus
312 rider of the white horse, constantine, rev 6:2
313 paganism the first beast mortally wounded, edict of milan, rev 13:3
330 the thousand year reign begins, rev 20:2
364 fifth of the seven heads tetrarchy and the House of Constantine
400 five have fallen, one is, and one is yet to come, rev 17:10
455 sixth of the seven heads House of Valentinian
476 seventh of the seven heads Family of Leo I the Great
622 rider of the red horse, mohammed, rev 6:4
632 the first horn of ten, rev 17:12
637 jerusalem falls to the first horn, Rashidun Caliphate
661 the second horn, Umayyad Caliphate
666 the first siege of constantinople, rev 15:2
717 the second siege of constantinople
750 the third horn, Abbasid Caliphate
868 the fourth horn, Tulunid and Fatimid Dynasties in Egypt
973 Ifriqiya and Sicily, end of horn number 5

1194 Seljuk Empire ends, horn number 6
1269 Almoravid and Almohad Dynasties in Maghreb ends, horn number 7
1299 ottoman dynasty starts
1390 first siege of constantinople by ottoman dynasty
1411 second siege
1422 third
1453 fourth and constantinople is fallen, rev 18:2
1453 end of the thousand years, rev 20:7
1736 Safavid dynasty ends, horn number 8
1848 rider of the black horse, marx, father of communism, rev 6:4
1857 Mughal Empire ends, horn number 9
1922 Ottoman Empire ends, horn number 10
1930 and shall be found no more at all, rev 18:21, the end of constantinople, babylon the great
the apocalypse is a puzzle with many pieces
-and-
each piece has date
-and-
they should all fit
 
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Postvieww

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the apocalypse is a puzzle with many pieces
-and-
each piece has date
-and-
they should all fit

I see no reference to Revelation 19 or how it relates to Revelation 20 here. If I missed it please point it out. This list appears as though you have reverse engineered the book of Revelation to try and “make it fit” history. Many of the comparisons are vague at best and lacking in many details provided by scripture.
 
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victorinus

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I see no reference to Revelation 19 or how it relates to Revelation 20 here. If I missed it please point it out. This list appears as though you have reverse engineered the book of Revelation to try and “make it fit” history. Many of the comparisons are vague at best and lacking in many details provided by scripture.
if there is a connection between 19 and 20,
you need to show it -
you have been asked to show it -
-and-
we are waiting for you to show it
 
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victorinus

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victorinus said in post 515:

to understand the apocalypse -
one must understand daniel

Interesting point.

For the "time, times, and an half" in Daniel 12:7 is referred to in the Apocalypse (Revelation) 12:14. And Revelation is an unsealed book (Revelation 22:10). So the meaning of the "time, times, and an half" in Daniel 12:7 was unsealed by the time that Revelation was written down in the 1st century AD. Therefore, "the time of the end" in Daniel 12:4,9 must be "the end" in the same sense as in Hebrews 9:26 (see also 1 Corinthians 10:11b), which shows that (in one sense) "the end" of the world had already begun at the time of Jesus' 1st coming and his crucifixion for our sins.

So Daniel 12:4b can be referring to many Christians, at anytime after Jesus' 1st coming and the writing down of Revelation (in 95 AD: Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c), going to and fro, going back and forth, between the still-unfulfilled parts of Revelation and Daniel, and these Christians increasing their knowledge of what is going to happen in our future by seeing how much these 2 books complement each other (cf. Isaiah 28:9-10; 1 Corinthians 2:13).

Also, Daniel 12:6,8 doesn't (as is sometimes claimed) contradict that the time of the end in Daniel 12:4,9 can begin before the "time, times, and an half" in Daniel 12:7 and all the other "wonders" and "things" referred to in Daniel 12:6,8 have ended. For the "time, times, and an half" in Daniel 12:7 refers only to the specific time period of 3.5 literal years which would later be shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13), the detailed events of which have never been fulfilled. And Daniel 12:6 refers to the specific "wonders" which Daniel had just been told about in Daniel 11:2 to 12:3, which also include detailed events which haven't been fulfilled (Daniel 11:31 to 12:3), including the church's physical resurrection into immortality (Daniel 12:2-3) at the time of the Antichrist's defeat (Daniel 11:45 to 12:3, Revelation 19:20 to 20:6), whereas Daniel 12:4,9 refers to a more general "time of the end" which began in the 1st century AD (Hebrews 9:26; 1 Corinthians 10:11b).

One part of Daniel which could have remained sealed for most people until recently is the understanding of Daniel 12:11-12. It and Apocalypse (Revelation) 16:15 could mean that 1,335 literal days after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31), Jesus' 2nd coming will occur, and blessed are those believers who wait and remain obedient until that day. If the literal 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-8, Revelation 12:6) will begin when the abomination of desolation is set up; and if the 7 vials of God's wrath will begin on the day after the 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 11:15,19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1); and if the first 6 vials will be poured out over 30 days; then the 6th vial could be poured out on the 1,290th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11).

It is on this 1,290th day that the blessing of Daniel 12:12 and Revelation 16:15 could be given, after the 6th vial has been poured out (Revelation 16:12), encouraging those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time to keep holding on just 45 more days until Jesus' 2nd coming on the 1,335th day. The 45 days could be taken up by the gathering together of the world's armies to Armageddon (Revelation 16:14,16) (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) and then their moving south to pillage Jerusalem, right before Jesus' 2nd coming and their total defeat (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:19-21).

victorinus said in post 515:

the king of the south
-
mohammed
fatimah - his daughter
ali - her husband - father of shia islam

Note that by the future time of Daniel 11:40-45, which will be right near the end of the Antichrist's future reign, the U.S. could be included as part of the "king of the south" which will rebel against him. For the U.S., as well as other countries such as Russia, China, India, and Japan, may not ever come under the same level of control as the Middle East, North Africa, and Europe will during the Antichrist's worldwide reign. But the U.S., as well as all other countries of the earth, will still come under the hegemony of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-8, Matthew 24:9).

What could happen is that during the Antichrist's worldwide reign, the U.S. will be under complete martial law, still controlled by U.S. soldiers, but under the economic thumb of the Antichrist. For during the future tribulation of the Apocalypse (Revelation) chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, the U.S. government could go bankrupt and the U.S. dollar could become next to worthless in world markets, so that the U.S. will eventually become completely dependent on the Antichrist for its finances and trade.

The way that the U.S. could be considered a part of the "king of the south" in Daniel 11:40 is through the U.S.' current hegemony over Egypt, which is the king of the south in Daniel 11:5-17. At the start of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, Egypt could be completely defeated and occupied, along with Israel, by an Iraqi Baathist general leading a huge Iraqi army (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath"). After this happens, the U.S. could take up the mantle of Egypt and Israel and attempt a counter-attack to liberate them from Baathist control. But this counter-attack could fail so miserably that the U.S. could forego any further attacks.

It is at this point that the Antichrist could arise on the world stage (Daniel 11:21) and "cut" a peace treaty with a future, ultra-Orthodox Jewish false "Messiah" (Daniel 9:26a,27a) ruling Jerusalem, after the Antichrist has defeated this Messiah and his followers (Daniel 11:22-23a). About 7 years later, sometime after the legal end of the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-8), not only could the U.S. as the "king of the south" try to attack the Antichrist (Daniel 11:40), but so could Russia, China, India, and Japan. For "tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many" (Daniel 11:44).
 
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victorinus

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victorinus said in post 517:

the first beast of the apocalypse
-is-
the third beast of daniel

Note that it isn't, because the leopard beast in the Apocalypse (Revelation) also partakes of Daniel's 1st, 2nd, and 4th beasts. For it has the mouth of a lion, the feet of a bear, and 10 horns (Revelation 13:1-2, Daniel 7:3-7). Also, the leopard beast in Revelation has 7 heads, while the leopard beast in Daniel has 4 heads (Daniel 7:6, Revelation 13:1-2).

It is sometimes claimed that the 7 heads of Daniel's 4 beasts are the same as the 7 heads of Revelation's beast. But this is not the case, for the 7 heads in Revelation 13:1 and Revelation 17:3 aren't the same as the 7 heads in Daniel 7. For the 4 beasts in Daniel 7:3-7 represent the ancient empires of Babylon (lion), Medo-Persia (bear), Greece (leopard), and Rome (4th beast). The 4 heads of the Greek empire (Daniel 7:6) would represent the 4 Diadochian Greek kingdoms which the Greek empire broke up into after the death of Alexander the Great (Daniel 8:22). But the 7 heads of the beast in Revelation 13:1 and Revelation 17:3 represent the empires of ancient Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, and (possibly) Islam. So the 4 beasts in Daniel 7 represent the same thing as 4 of the 7 heads in Revelation 13:1 and Revelation 17:3, but the heads in Daniel 7 aren't entirely the same as the heads in Revelation 13:1 and Revelation 17:3. If they were entirely the same, then it would have been said, at the time of John the apostle and the Roman empire in the 1st century AD, that "six are fallen" instead of "five are fallen" (Revelation 17:10). For in Daniel 7, the first 3 beasts before the Roman empire had a total of 6 heads, not 5.
 
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victorinus

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I am not the first one to suggest that john the baptist first wrote the apocalypse
back to the apocalypse
Revelation
by J. Massyngberde Ford
-
she was the first and possibly the only one to suggest john the baptist as the first writer of the apocalypse
-and-
she later changed her mind about that -
don't know why -
she did get a lot of grief for it -
-now-
I may be the only one who believes it
 
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