the apocalypse

[Bible2+]

Revealing Times said in post 440:

The Church is raptured . . .

That's right.

But note that nothing in the Bible teaches or requires a pre-tribulation rapture of the church. Instead, the Bible shows that Jesus won't come and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). That is why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' 2nd coming and the physical resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there is a falling away (an apostasy) in the church, and the Antichrist sits (at least one time) in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church, he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-31).

At Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30), the church will be physically resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31), not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

Revealing Times said in post 440:

Because we go to Heaven to marry the Lamb, of course.

Do you mean that the rapture will take believers into the 3rd heaven (cf. 2 Corinthians 12:2b)? If so, note that no scripture requires that believers will be raptured any higher than the clouds of the sky (the 1st heaven) to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). After that meeting, in which the church will be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), and the obedient part of the church will be married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7, Matthew 25:1-13), the obedient part of the church will come back down from the sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:15-21) to physically reign on the earth with him for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). After the 1,000 years and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), the obedient part of the church will live on the new earth with God the Father and Jesus in the literal city of New Jerusalem (Revelation chapters 21-22).

Revealing Times said in post 440:

Because we go to Heaven to marry the Lamb, of course.

Note that the 10-virgins parable (Matthew 25:1-13) shows that the marriage of the church to Jesus won't occur until his 2nd coming (Matthew 25:10), which Jesus had just finished saying won't occur until "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), just like Revelation 19:7 shows that the marriage won't occur until after the (never fulfilled) tribulation, shown in Revelation chapters 6 to 18. The parable's extra oil (Matthew 25:4,9b) could represent the continued good works of believers, by which they will be able to pass the judgment of the church by Jesus (Matthew 25:19-30, Romans 2:6-8) and enter the marriage of the church to Jesus at his 2nd coming (Matthew 25:10, Revelation 19:7-21).

The marriage supper (Revelation 19:9) won't have yet begun by the time of Revelation 19, which won't begin until after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (cf. Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). For regarding the church, the marriage supper will be a literal feast in the earthly Jerusalem after the resurrection and marriage of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54). While the church will enjoy a feast "of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined" (Isaiah 25:6), the birds will feast on the corpses of the world's armies defeated by Jesus' at his 2nd coming (Revelation 19:17-21).

Also, regarding the 10-virgins parable, in Matthew 25:6 "midnight" could represent mid-tribulation, when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) could be set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31). So when it says "at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh" (Matthew 25:6), this could mean that at the mid-tribulation point when the abomination of desolation is set up, the church will be given the knowledge of the date (as in the year, month, and day) of Jesus' 2nd coming. This date could be the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, cf. Revelation 16:15).

 

[Revealing Times]

That's right.

But note that nothing in the Bible teaches or requires a pre-tribulation rapture of the church. Instead, the Bible shows that Jesus won't come and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). That is why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' 2nd coming and the physical resurrection of the church at that time

Just supposing the Rapture was Post Tribulation, and we went up to meet Jesus, changed bodies and Married the Lamb and came straight back. That still PROVES only Israel can be the Wheat, because the parable says the Wheat and the Tares will grow TOGETHER until the end. So if the Church is Raptured Post Tribulation that would violate Jesus' words. Like I said, the Wheat is Israel ONLY.

Now per these scriptures above. What do they have to do with the Rapture ? No one is saying the Rapture is the Second Coming !! That is where all you guys go off the rails. The Church is Raptured to Heaven, we marry the Lamb in Rev. 19, then come back to earth to fight.....the Anti-Christ, False Prophet, his Kings and Armies. AFTER WE MARRY THE LAMB. This means IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation, we the Church comes back with Jesus, from Heaven. As a matter of fact go reread Matthew 24:31, it says the Angel gathers us(elect) from ONE END OF HEAVEN to the other. Not from the earth !! And 2 Thessalonians 1-8 is another wrong interpretation. The first Seven English Translations had Depart or Departed, not until the KJV was the passage rendered "FALLING AWAY". And the Vulgate for 1000 years had Departed. The reason that it is suspected the KJV changed it to falling away is they were taking a pot shot at the Catholic Church.

The Subject is the Rapture (gathering together unto Christ) and the Day of the Lord being UPON the Thessalonians, this is what they Feared. Paul says, don't fear men, I TOLD YOU when I was with you, that the Day of the Lord (Gods Wrath) will not come until a Departing (of the Church) then the Anti-Christ will be allowed to come forth. Until then the Holy Christ will BLOCK HIM, because the Gospel has to be preached unto all the world first.

That is why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' 2nd coming and the physical resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

Rev. 19 is happening when Rev. 4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15 and 16 is happening, there is no Rev. 17 and 18 in reality, it is only a retelling of prior Rev. chapters. The Rapture and Second Coming do not happen at the same time, not understanding this gets people off the rails.

Do you mean that the rapture will take believers into the 3rd heaven (cf. 2 Corinthians 12:2b)? If so, note that no scripture requires that believers will be raptured any higher than the clouds of the sky (the 1st heaven) to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). After that meeting, in which the church will be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), and the obedient part of the church will be married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7, Matthew 25:1-13), the obedient part of the church will come back down from the sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:15-21) to physically reign on the earth with him for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). After the 1,000 years and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), the obedient part of the church will live on the new earth with God the Father and Jesus in the literal city of New Jerusalem (Revelation chapters 21-22).

Wrong, we are in Heaven, the Bridegroom goes to his Fathers house to build a bridal chambers, Jesus said If I go, I will come again for you. The Bridegroom does nor determine when he comes for the bride, the Father give the go ahead to go get the Bride, the Jewish tradition is that its around Midnight and the Bridegroom SHOUTS to the BRIDE !! The spend 7 Days in the Bridal Chambers. We the Church spend 7 Years in Heaven. Then we have the Marriage Supper.

Anyone that reads rev. 19 and can not see a Pre-Tribulation rapture is just not seeing the big picture.

Note that the 10-virgins parable (Matthew 25:1-13) shows that the marriage of the church to Jesus won't occur until his 2nd coming (Matthew 25:10), which Jesus had just finished saying won't occur until "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), just like Revelation 19:7 shows that the marriage won't occur until after the (never fulfilled) tribulation, shown in Revelation chapters 6 to 18. The parable's extra oil (Matthew 25:4,9b) could represent the continued good works of believers, by which they will be able to pass the judgment of the church by Jesus (Matthew 25:19-30, Romans 2:6-8) and enter the marriage of the church to Jesus at his 2nd coming (Matthew 25:10, Revelation 19:7-21).

You keep confusing the Second Coming with the Rapture.

Also, regarding the 10-virgins parable, in Matthew 25:6 "midnight" could represent mid-tribulation, when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) could be set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31). So when it says "at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh" (Matthew 25:6), this could mean that at the mid-tribulation point when the abomination of desolation is set up, the church will be given the knowledge of the date (as in the year, month, and day) of Jesus' 2nd coming. This date could be the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, cf. Revelation 16:15).

You need to read this, you are a smart guy In think it would sink in quick.

The Jewish Wedding Pattern.
http://www.luke810.com/wedpatt.htm

 

[Revealing Times]

Note that Revelation 18:2 doesn't require that Revelation's figurative "Babylon" has fallen twice, in the sense of at 2 different times. For "Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen" can simply be a rhetorical way of emphasizing Babylon's current fallen state.

That is, just as the fall of current mankind occurred some 6,000 years ago with the fall of Adam (Romans 5:19), yet unsaved, current mankind won't be destroyed until sometime after the future millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15, Matthew 10:28), so the fall of Revelation's figurative "Babylon" (Revelation 14:8) occurred some 6,000 years ago. For Revelation's "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) represents all of Adamic mankind's corrupt political (Revelation 17:18), economic (Revelation 18:11), and religious (Revelation 18:24) systems throughout the earth (Revelation 18:3) and throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10). But Revelation's "Babylon" won't be destroyed until the 7th vial of God's wrath (Revelation 16:19,17), the final event of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before Jesus' 2nd coming and the resurrection and marriage of the church (Revelation 19:2 to 20:6).

GUESS THE RAPTURE ISN'T PART OF THE APOCALYPSE OR SOMEONES JUST BEING RUDE. Lets discuss Babylon.

Hello brother in Christ.
1. Babylon is not a Mystery. 2. Babylon is not a City. 3. Babylon is not the RCC. 4. Babylon is not America or NYC nor can it be. 5. Babylon is not Rome. 6. Babylon is not Islam. 7. Babylon is not an Iraqi City.

1. Why does everyone say Mystery Babylon ? The word means Secret by Gods silence. In Rev 17:7, the Angel says why did you Marvel ? I will tell you the Mystery of the Woman/Harlot and the Beast that carries her with Seven heads and Ten horns. So seeing as how the Angel reveals the Mystery/Secret to us, why do we insist it is still a Mystery ? The Seven heads are Seven Mountains (rulers that arise out of the land, NOT Hills) and there are Seven kings, Five have fallen (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece) One is (Rome) and One is yet to come (Revived Rome/Euro Union/Anti-Christ and 10 Kings). When the Seventh king comes he will rule but a short time and the 8th King (Satan possesses the Anti-Christ) which is of the Seven will then rule for 42 months. Then the Mystery of the Harlot is told via the waters she sits on, she is Nations, Multitudes, Peoples and Tongues. So the Mystery is no more. The Beast is the False Government Systems (7) that has enslaved or conquered Israel, all Seven have or will have this in common. The Harlot is the False Religious side of this same System, she is all over the world by the end time, Islam, Buddhism, Witchcraft, and fake Churches etc. etc. She is destroyed by the Kings in League with the Beast who hate her. BUT WHY ?

Because the Anti-Christ demands to be worshiped as the ONLY GOD !! He destroys Islam and comes against Christians and Israel has to flee to the wilderness. The Babylon of Rev. 18 has nothing to do with the Harlot of Rev. 17. The Kings hate her and destroy her, but when Babylon is Destroyed in Rev. 18 the Kings cry and bemoan her destruction. False Religion is Destroyed, the Harlot is Judged in Rev. 17, and God uses the Anti-Christ and his Kings to do His Will Rev. 17:17 says so. Rev. 17:18 saying she is a City, is only a reminder of what the vision was that John saw. He saw a woman riding a Beast with Seven Heads and Ten horns, and on her head was written, BABYLON.....That is the City that comes to Remembrance when God sees all the False Religions, Babylon is the "Birthplace/Mother" of Harlots/False Religions.

In Rev. 18, the Last Beast System/Babylon will be destroyed with Plagues, this is only Gods Wrath destroying the wicked of the world, which also destroys her commerce, and of course by this time she is the habitation of Devils, because Satan has been cast down, and Apollyon and his Demons loosed from the pit. Thus Babylon has Fallen, has Fallen. God is going to destroy the Idol that Nebuchadnezzar saw in Daniel 2, at the end, with the Rock cut out of the Mountain, one Jesus Christ. Babylon is the Last False Gov. System that tries to Conquer Israel.

 

[Revealing Times]

Note that Revelation 18:2 doesn't require that Revelation's figurative "Babylon" has fallen twice, in the sense of at 2 different times. For "Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen" can simply be a rhetorical way of emphasizing Babylon's current fallen state.

That is, just as the fall of current mankind occurred some 6,000 years ago with the fall of Adam (Romans 5:19), yet unsaved, current mankind won't be destroyed until sometime after the future millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15, Matthew 10:28), so the fall of Revelation's figurative "Babylon" (Revelation 14:8) occurred some 6,000 years ago. For Revelation's "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) represents all of Adamic mankind's corrupt political (Revelation 17:18), economic (Revelation 18:11), and religious (Revelation 18:24) systems throughout the earth (Revelation 18:3) and throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10). But Revelation's "Babylon" won't be destroyed until the 7th vial of God's wrath (Revelation 16:19,17), the final event of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before Jesus' 2nd coming and the resurrection and marriage of the church (Revelation 19:2 to 20:6).

Sequence of the Apocalypse, and what Babylon is fallen means.

Revelation (Apocalypse) 1 2 and 3 are about the Churches of Asia Minor.

The Rapture is the beginning of Daniels 70th Week. That starts in Revelation chapter 4. COME UP HERE.....

Rev. 4 and 5 Describe the Fathers Glory and Jesus as the Worthy Lamb, the Church is in Heaven Marrying the Lamb at this point and the First part of Rev. 19 would be going on at this exact same time.

Rev. 6 is the Mid-way point of the Daniels 70th Week or of Jacobs trouble. The Anti-Christ starts turning on Israel and starts conquering foes. Rev. 17 is happening at this point because Islam and all Religions (The Harlot) are being destroyed at this point. Rev. 18 starts as soon as the Last Seal is opened so it is not happening quite yet. Rev. 11 is happening at this point also, the Two-Witnesses are prophesying and bringing forth plagues or about to bring forth plagues, they have already turned Israel back to God and the Messiah Jesus. Israel has already fled unto the wilderness by this point in time also so parts of Rev. 12 are happening here also. Rev. 13 is happening by now also, the Beast has risen out of the Sea.

Rev. 7 is the Anointing of the 144,000 and after that John in Heaven watching the Marriage of the Lamb and the Church which is happening at this point in Heaven, Rev. 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; Then an elder tells John these are they which came out of the Great Tribulation. The great tribulation is the troubles of the world, the trials all of man-kind go through in their lives, we all face this challenge in life, we are tested just like Jesus was tempted. We have made it to Heaven. But we are not in Jacobs Trouble, because that was designed to get Israel to Repent, not the Church who is at this point in Heaven, Marrying the Lamb. Those under the Alter in Seal #6 were told to wait until their fellow servants were killed also, so they are not in Heaven yet, they yet sleep.

Rev. 8, the Seventh Seal Sounds, the plagues of God are brought forth via the Seven Trumps, the Two-Witnesses in Rev. 11 are praying them down upon a wicked earth (Babylon) and the Prayers of the Saints are cast down on earth, mingled with fire. Rev. 18 starts happening at this exact point, Babylon is Fallen is fallen. Babylon is hit by he plagues of God and her commerce is destroyed, her grasses and trees are burned up, many peoples die, an asteroid hits, the waters turn to blood, sea creatures die, many shops are destroyed, the waters are poisoned, the sun, moon and stars are darkened, no doubt because of the smoke, and Angel announces there are Three Woes left !!!

Rev. 9 ushers in two of the final three Woes. Rev. 18 is still happening at this very time. Woe #1 is Apollyon being released from the bottomless pit along with a horde of Demons that torture men, Rev. 18 says the Earth has become a habitation of Devils !! Now comes Woe #2, four Angels are released, they have an Army of 200 Million Horsemen, they have the same Breastplates as the High Priests of Israel, they kill men on earth who it says STILL WILL NOT REPENT !! That tells us what ? This is a Plague of God, this is not an Human Army of 200 Million Horsemen. The Euphrates River is dried up in Rev. 16, during the Sixth Vial, not here at the Sixth Trumpet in Rev. 9 !! The Kings of the East have nothing to do with THIS ARMY of Horsemen. Rev. 14 is happening at this exact time, the 144,000 are preaching repent, repent and another angel is saying Babylon has fallen, fallen. Another Angel says if any man worships the Beast or his Image, or takes the Mark of the Beast will receive the WRATH OF GOD !! Revelation chapter 18 is the Judgment of Babylon ( the Last Beast System or conglomerate Government that comes against Israel, to subdue and Destroy her ). It is still going on as Rev. 9 is going on.

Rev. 10 is John eating a book because God doesn't want him to Reveal everything he heard about this event, this seems to be a one event vision, however, it seems the Angel swore that when the Seventh Angel sounded, time should be no more (as we know it).

Rev. 11, as I stated, much of that is happening as Rev. 6 is happening, but also as Rev. 8 and Rev. 9 are happening also. The Two Woes are Past, now comes the Third Woe just after the Two-Witnesses are killed, come back to life and have ascended unto Heaven. And the 3rd Woe sounded, and this ushers in the Seven Vials of Gods wrath. The Kingdoms of this Earth have become the Kingdoms of the Lord and the Nations (Babylon) were angry because His Wrath (Gods Wrath) had come. Rev. 15 and Rev. 16 are the results of the Seven Vials of Gods Wrath to come.

Rev. 12 is the Story of Israel (Women) Baby Jesus, The Dragon etc. etc. It shows who birthed Jesus, how Satan tied to kill him, how he ascended to Heaven and sat at the Right Hand of God. Then Israel fled into the Wilderness for 1260 Days, to be protected by God so this part happens as Rev. 6 is happening no doubt. Then Satan comes after the Christians this is no doubt the Martyrs under the Alter in the 5th Seal who were Beheaded for Jesus' name.

Rev. 13 is the story of the rise of the Anti-Christ and his False Prophet, this happens at the very beginning of Daniels 70th Week no doubt. He turns on Israel and all False and True Religions at the Mid-way point, he will then kill all who refuse to worship him as GOD both rich and poor, great and small. His number is 666.

Rev. 14 Jesus then [anoints/Seals them on their foreheads] the 144,000 personally, on Mount Zion. He then sends them forth to preach the Gospel unto all mankind. They go forth and preach the Gospel to men as Babylon is Falling, yet they seem to repent not most of the times, but yet, no one can say they have not heard the Gospel, this will be the Judgment against them, they heard but rejected the good news of Jesus Christs Salvation via the Blood !! They wanted no part. Rev. 9 is happening at the same time...

Rev. 15. is about the Seven Last Plagues that the final Seven Vials are going to bring forth.

Rev. 16 is the Seven Vials of Gods Wrath being poured out upon Babylon the Great !! This is what Rev. 18 is all about, Rev. 18 is just a more detailed version of Babylon Falling while Rev. 16 is describing the Plagues which are the Third and final Woe !! In the very first Vial grievous sores fall upon men with the Mark of the Beast upon them, then in the 2nd Vial, the Seas became as dead men's blood and all the sea creatures died. In the 3rd Vial all the drinking waters turn to blood. The 4th Vial is poured out and the sun scorches men and they blasphemed God, yet repented not !! In the 5th Vial, we see that the Seat of the Beast (Babylon) became as Dark, and men gnawed at their tongues for pain but yet Repented not. The 6th Vial is now poured out, and the Euphrates River is dried up preparing the way for the Kings of the East ( NOT !!! Preparing the way for a 200 million Horsemen Army ) to do battle in Armageddon no doubt, because there are Three Evil Spirits sent out from the Anti-Christ, Dragon and the False Prophet to entice the Kings unto battle, they no doubt want to destroy Israel/Jerusalem once and for all. Then the Seventh and Final Vial is pored out and there is a voice from Heaven saying It is done.... then there is a Great Earthquake such as has never been seen before, and Jerusalem is divided into Three Parts as Jesus put foot upon Mount Zion. Then of course the CITIES of the NATIONS (Babylon) fell: and Great Babylon came into REMEMBRANCE UNTO GOD !! To give unto her the cup of the wine of His fierce Wrath !! Of Course this is what is Happening to Babylon in Rev. chapter 18. IT IS DONE, there is no more Kingdoms of men, Jesus Christ hast taken over, as soon as he defeats the Anti-Christ and his Kings/Satan in Rev. 19. There is in essence no Rev. 17 or Rev. chapter 18, they are just an enhanced telling of the Fall of Babylons Two Sides, the Religious Harlot and the Governmental Beast System. Rev. 17:16 The Kings HATE the Harlot and burn her and destroy her (False Religion Judged) Rev. 18:2 Babylon the Great is fallen, is fallen, she has become the habitation of devils !! (False Government Side Judged). Commerce destroyed, plagues brought forth etc. etc.

Rev. Chapter 19, this chapter starts in Rev. 4 and is ongoing in Rev, 5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16. Then our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ comes back with us Saints, the Church, who he has Married in Rev. 19, and He defeats Satan (bound in the pit for 1000 years) the Anti-Christ and False Prophet whom he judges and throws into Hell (Rev. 20:10) and all the Kings and Armies of Satan and the Anti-Christ with the Sword of his Mouth (Holy Spirit) and Without Hands (Holy Spirit). Amen, Glory to God.

 

[Revealing Times]

(staff edit)





John at Patmos: the receiving of an apocalyptic vision. Anapocalypse (Ancient Greek: ἀποκάλυψις apokálypsis, from ἀπό and καλύπτω meaning "uncovering"), translated literally from Greek, is 'through the concealed', meaning a disclosure of knowledge, i.e., a lifting of the veil or revelation.
Apocalypse - Wikipedia



666 -
babylon the great - constantinople -
rider of the white horse - constantine - from the white sea (mediterranean)
rider of the red horse - mohammed - from the red sea
rider of the black horse - marx - from the black sea
the first beast - the roman empire -
the second beast - islam -
the seven heads - the seven dynasties of the roman empire -
the ten horns - the ten islamic dynasties -
the thousand years - the byzantine empire -
the three johns - john the baptist and two more johns -
the two witnesses - church and state -
-
the timeline of the apocalypse
-
daniel
-
it's a puzzle
-
this is twenty years of research -
will discuss the results -
will present the books used -
looking forward to discussing all aspects of the apocalypse -
I chose not to use the Historicist Only tag because I want to include all in this dialogue

babylon the great - constantinople
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no other city has all these characteristics
-mystery
-many waters
-trade
-seven hills
-is fallen, is fallen
-found no more

Revelation 17:8
8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.


the rider of white horse started the thousand years and mortally wounded the first beast which was replaced by the second beast started by the rider of the red horse -
the rider of the black horse started an empire which would end the empire of the second beast but the second beast, like no other, is still with us

 

[Bible2+]

Revealing Times said in post 446:

Revelation (Apocalypse) 1 2 and 3 are about the Churches of Asia Minor.

The Rapture is the beginning of Daniels 70th Week. That starts in Revelation chapter 4. COME UP HERE.....

Revelation (Apocalypse) 4:1 ¶After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Note that this refers only to John the apostle, by himself, making an only-temporary visit up to the 3rd heaven at one point during his lifetime back in the 1st century AD, just as 2 Corinthians 12:2 refers only to Paul the apostle, by himself, making an only-temporary visit up to the 3rd heaven at one point during his lifetime back in the 1st century AD. Neither verse refers to the future rapture of the church only as high as the clouds of the sky (the 1st heaven) to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Also, no significance should be read into the fact that the specific word "church" is mentioned many times in Revelation (Apocalypse) chapters 1-3, but not mentioned again until Revelation 22, just as no significance should be read into the fact that the specific word "church" is mentioned many times in Romans 16, but not mentioned in Romans chapters 1 to 15. The reason why the word "church" is mentioned many times in Revelation chapters 1-3 is because those chapters refer to 7 literal, 1st century AD local church congregations in 7 cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11).

The church in the general sense will definitely be in the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For believers will definitely be in it (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-13), and now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6). Also, just as the mistaken, pre-tribulation rapture view admits that Revelation chapters 19 to 22 include references to the church without using the specific word "church", so it should be able to admit that Revelation chapters 6 to 18 can include references to the church without using the specific word "church".

Revealing Times said in post 446:

Rev. 6 is the Mid-way point of the Daniels 70th Week or of Jacobs trouble.

Note that the time of Jacob's trouble which he will be saved out of (Jeremiah 30:7) won't be the entire future tribulation of Revelation (Apocalypse) chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, but only the final pillaging of the Jews in Jerusalem at the very end of the tribulation, right before Jesus returns and saves them (Zechariah 14:2-5). The church, including both Jews and Gentiles (Revelation 7:9,14), will be in the tribulation. For believers will be in the tribulation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-13), and now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

Revealing Times said in post 446:

Israel has already fled unto the wilderness by this point in time also so parts of Rev. 12 are happening here also.

Note that the woman in Revelation (Apocalypse) chapter 12 represents the church (which is Israel: Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). For she is clothed with the sun (Revelation 12:1) of righteousness (Malachi 4:2) through her faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22), just as later we see the church clothed with righteousness (Revelation 19:8). And the moon under her feet (Revelation 12:1) represents Satan under her feet (Romans 16:20) as she overcomes him spiritually by her faith in Jesus (Revelation 12:11). And the crown of 12 stars on her head (Revelation 12:1) represents the 12 apostles (of Matthew 10:2-4, Acts 1:16-26), who have been placed over the church (1 Corinthians 12:28).

Her giving birth to the "man child", and his being caught up to the throne of God (Revelation 12:5) immediately before she flees into the wilderness for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6), represents the future, mid-tribulation catching up of the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church in their mortal bodies to the throne of God in heaven (Revelation 14:1,4-5, Textus Receptus), like how Enoch and Elijah were caught up in their mortal bodies to heaven (Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:11).

Her fleeing into and remaining in a protected wilderness place for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6,14) represents those in the church who will flee into and remain in divinely-protected wilderness places during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), which will occur during the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

The remnant of her seed (Revelation 12:17) represents those in the church during that time who won't flee into wilderness places, but will remain in the cities and be persecuted in every nation, and be imprisoned and beheaded by the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Also, Genesis 37:9-10 isn't (as is sometimes claimed) being referred to in Revelation 12:1. For in Revelation 12:1, the church/Israel isn't clothed with the man Jacob (Genesis 37:9-10), but with the sun of righteousness (Malachi 4:2), through her faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22), just as later we see the church/Israel clothed with righteousness (Revelation 19:8, cf. also Revelation 21:2,9,12). Also, the church/Israel doesn't have the woman Rachel under her feet (Genesis 37:9-10), but Satan (Romans 16:20), as the church/Israel overcomes him spiritually by her faith in Jesus (Revelation 12:11). And the church/Israel doesn't have Jacob's 12 sons placed over her (Genesis 37:9-10), but the 12 apostles (1 Corinthians 12:28, Matthew 10:2, Acts 1:26), each one of whom will rule over one of her 12 tribes (Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30).

Revealing Times said in post 446:

Rev. 7 is the Anointing of the 144,000 . . .

Note that the 144,000 of Revelation (Apocalypse) chapter 7 will all be Christians (Revelation 14:1,4), and so they will all be part of the church (cf. Ephesians 4:4-6). They will be the firstfruits of the church (Revelation 14:4), in the sense of its best part (cf. Numbers 18:12). They will be male virgins (Revelation 14:4), who could all have been born in the 20th or 21st century, and who could all already be part of the church. For they will all be alive on the earth, and will all already be God's servants (Revelation 7:3; cf. Romans 6:22, Philippians 1:1), by the time of Revelation 7:3-8, during the 1st stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. They will have entered the tribulation along with the rest of the church alive at that time, for there will be no pre-tribulation rapture (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Also, the 144,000, who are of the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 7:4-8), can include both Jews and Gentiles in the church. For all genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23).

The tribe of Dan is missing from the list of the 144,000's twelve tribes (Revelation 7:4-8; there, "Joseph" stands for Ephraim: Numbers 1:32, Psalms 78:67, Ezekiel 37:16b,19) because the Israel they are from isn't genetic Israel with its 12 genetic tribes which include Dan (Genesis 49:28,17), but rather spiritual Israel (Romans 9:6-8), which consists of all the elect (Romans 9:11-13), both elect Jews and elect Gentiles (Romans 9:24).

Revealing Times said in post 446:

Rev. 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne . . .

Note that Revelation (Apocalypse) 7:9-17 doesn't require a pre-tribulation rapture into heaven. For in Revelation 7:9-17, the great multitude could be only that part of the church (Revelation 7:14b) which will enter the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and then come out of it (Revelation 7:14) and enter heaven (Revelation 7:15) by dying (cf. Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8) during the 2nd through 6th seals in the chapter just prior (Revelation 6), the tribulation's 1st stage.

This would be similar to how the souls of "them that were slain for the word of God", who will be under the altar in heaven at the 5th seal (Revelation 6:9-11), will enter heaven by dying sometime before the 5th seal. And it would be similar to how those in the church who will be on the sea of glass in heaven (Revelation 15:2, cf. Revelation 12:11) at the tribulation's 7 last plagues (Revelation chapters 15-16), the tribulation's final stage, will enter heaven by dying during the just-preceding, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Revealing Times said in post 446:

Rev. 12 is the Story of Israel (Women) Baby Jesus, The Dragon etc. etc

Revelation (Apocalypse) 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Note that here the "man child" isn't Jesus, for Revelation 12:5 isn't about past things, but is part of the "things which must be hereafter" (Revelation 4:1b). Revelation chapters 11-14 show from 4 different angles what will happen right before the start and during the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5-8, Revelation 14:9-13), which will be in the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

Regarding Revelation 12:5 saying "who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron": Along with Jesus (Revelation 19:15, Psalms 2:9), the whole obedient church will rule the nations with a rod of iron (Revelation 2:26-29) on the earth (Revelation 5:10) during the future millennium (Revelation 20:4-6). Before the millennium, during the tribulation, at its midpoint, the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church will be caught up (in their mortal bodies) to the throne of God in heaven (Revelation 14:1,4-5, Textus Receptus) as the "man child" (Revelation 12:5-6), and as the firstfruits of the church (Revelation 14:4), in the sense of its best part (cf. Numbers 18:12).

*******

Revealing Times said in post 442:

So if the Church is Raptured Post Tribulation that would violate Jesus' words. Like I said, the Wheat is Israel ONLY.

Note that the parable of the wheat and the tares relates not to Jesus' 2nd coming, but to the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:15, Matthew 13:40-42), after the millennium (Revelation 20:7-15).

Revealing Times said in post 442:

As a matter of fact go reread Matthew 24:31, it says the Angel gathers us(elect) from ONE END OF HEAVEN to the other. Not from the earth !!

Note that Matthew 24:31's parallel verse of Mark 13:27 shows that the church will be gathered together from both heaven and earth.

Revealing Times said in post 442:

And 2 Thessalonians 1-8 is another wrong interpretation. The first Seven English Translations had Depart or Departed, not until the KJV was the passage rendered "FALLING AWAY".

The "falling away" (Greek: apostasia) in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is the apostasy, when some in the church will depart from the faith in the latter times (1 Timothy 4:1), when the Antichrist is revealed (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4) and begins a worldwide persecution against the church (Matthew 24:9-13) during his worldwide reign (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Those in the church who fall away/commit apostasy will ultimately lose their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).

The meanings of the Greek word apostasia, as well as the Greek word it is derived from, aphistemi, include non-physical departure. For Acts 21:21 employs apostasia to refer to Jewish Christians in the 1st century AD forsaking, departing from, their former practice of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. And Luke 8:13 employs aphistemi to refer to Christians falling away, departing, from the faith. Also, at the rapture, the church won't physically depart from the earth (John 17:15,20, Proverbs 10:30), but will be caught up only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

Revealing Times said in post 442:

The Subject is the Rapture (gathering together unto Christ) and the Day of the Lord being UPON the Thessalonians, this is what they Feared.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 is most often referred to in order to refute the mistaken idea of an imminent, pre-tribulation coming of Jesus and rapture (gathering together) of the church, which won't happen until immediately after the future tribulation (Matthew 24:29-21). But the apostle Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 wasn't so much countering pre-tribulation rapturism as he was countering full preterism. Full preterism mistakenly says that the day of the Lord (Christ) is already at hand (2 Thessalonians 2:2), in the sense of already present, that the 2nd coming and rapture have already occurred (2 Thessalonians 2:1-2), that the resurrection of the church is already a present reality (2 Timothy 2:18). Paul was careful to counter full preterism, for it can trouble (2 Thessalonians 2:2) and even overthrow the faith of some believers (2 Timothy 2:18). It can cause them to lose the blessed hope (Titus 2:13) of obtaining eternal life (Titus 1:2, Titus 3:7) in an immortal, physical resurrection body (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Revealing Times said in post 442:

The Subject is the Rapture (gathering together unto Christ) and the Day of the Lord being UPON the Thessalonians, this is what they Feared.

The future day of the Lord (Christ) (2 Thessalonians 2:2) will begin at the Lord Jesus Christ's 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't occur until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, "immediately after" the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8), which is when the rapture (the gathering together) of the church will occur (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Revealing Times said in post 442:

Until then the Holy Christ will BLOCK HIM, because the Gospel has to be preached unto all the world first.

2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [Greek: katecho: holds down] will let [hold down], until he be taken out of the way.

The restrainer of the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:6-8) could be a powerful, good angel, like the one who will restrain Satan at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 20:1-3). The restrainer can't be the Holy Spirit, because in the future the restrainer will be removed (2 Thessalonians 2:7b), while the Holy Spirit can never be removed because he is always omnipresent (Psalms 139:7-10). Similarly, the restrainer can't be the church or the Holy Spirit in the church, because the church won't be removed (John 17:15,20, Proverbs 10:30), and now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5), and now no one can be a believer without the Spirit (Romans 8:9); and the Antichrist will be allowed to physically overcome believers in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), just as, for example, the Roman emperors and Satan were allowed to physically overcome some believers in the 1st century AD (e.g. Revelation 2:10). Also, Mark 13:11b expressly shows that the Holy Spirit will still be with believers during the future tribulation.

Also, the tribulation passage of Revelation 14:12-13 is the same idea as 1 Thessalonians 5:10-11, meaning that obedient believers can have the Holy Spirit's comfort at any time (John 14:15-17), in any tribulation (2 Corinthians 1:4-7), no matter whether they live or die.

Revealing Times said in post 442:

Wrong, we are in Heaven, the Bridegroom goes to his Fathers house to build a bridal chambers . . .

Note that there is no pre-tribulation-rapture idea in John 14:2-3, just as there is no "take you back" (somewhere). Instead, there is only a coming again of Jesus (i.e. his 2nd coming), and then a receiving of the church unto himself. Also, the pre-tribulation-rapture view can't (as is sometimes done) claim that the rapture is referred to only by Paul, and then admit that John 14:3 refers to the rapture.

John 14:2 means that one of the reasons that Jesus left was to prepare a place for the church in the literal city of New Jerusalem, God the Father's house in heaven (Revelation 21:2-3). John 14:3 means that Jesus' leaving to prepare a place for the church means that he is not done with the church, but will come back to it. John 14:3 means that the church will be received to Jesus where he will be first at his 2nd coming, which will be in the sky (1 Thessalonians 4:17), before he lands on the earth at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:30-31, Zechariah 14:3-21), which won't occur until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

The church will live in its place in New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:24 to 22:5) on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-3) sometime after the millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15). For during the millennium, the physically resurrected church will be ruling on the present earth with the returned Jesus (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Zechariah 14:3-21).

Also, the church has already come to God the Father's house, New Jerusalem, which is currently in heaven, in the spiritual sense of coming under the New Covenant (Hebrews 12:22-24, Galatians 4:24-26, Matthew 26:28). Also, the souls of obedient people in the church go to God the Father's house when they die, for their still-conscious souls go into heaven to be with Jesus when they die (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). And they go into paradise (Luke 23:43), which is in heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2b,4), in the city of New Jerusalem (Revelation 2:7 and Revelation 22:2).

Revealing Times said in post 442:

The Jewish Wedding Pattern.

Note that the scriptures themselves don't ever say or require that Jesus is going to take the church to the Father's house for the marriage. And we must not run after Jewish traditions which are not taught by the scriptures (Mark 7:13, Colossians 2:8). Just as Isaac didn't take Rebekah into his father's house, but into his mother's house (Genesis 24:67), and just as Jacob didn't take Leah or Rachel into his father's house, but married them in a faraway land (Genesis 29:23-28), so nothing requires that Jesus has to marry the church in the Father's house, instead of in the clouds of the sky (the 1st heaven) at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:17, Revelation 19:7).

 

[Revealing Times]

Note that this refers only to John the apostle, by himself, making an only-temporary visit up to the 3rd heaven at one point during his lifetime back in the 1st century AD, just as 2 Corinthians 12:2 refers only to Paul the apostle, by himself, making an only-temporary visit up to the 3rd heaven at one point during his lifetime back in the 1st century AD. Neither verse refers to the future rapture of the church only as high as the clouds of the sky (the 1st heaven) to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Yes I understand, but like many things in the bible, a lot of the bible has double meanings, but forgetting the "Come up here". we see that in Rev. 4 and 5 they kind of flow together, there were no chapters and verses, they were added about 500 years ago. So by reading Rev. 4 and 5 we see that Rev. 4 is about God and Hid Godhead and him sitting on the throne, then it transitions to chapter 5 and God is still sitting on the throne, and He has a book in His right hand (7 Seals) and He is looking for someone Worthy to open the Seals. No one is found in Heaven or earth, John starts to weep, and look who says JOHN....Stop crying man, it is an ELDER, the Church is in heaven and they sing a song praising the Worthiness of Christ who has redeemed them, then in Chapter 7, we see the Church mentioned in Rev. 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;.....So the Church is in Heaven.

The church in the general sense will definitely be in the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For believers will definitely be in it (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-13), and now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6). Also, just as the mistaken, pre-tribulation rapture view admits that Revelation chapters 19 to 22 include references to the church without using the specific word "church", so it should be able to admit that Revelation chapters 6 to 18 can include references to the church without using the specific word "church".

Matthew 24 says that Jesus will come back (to save Israel and Defeat the Anti-Christ) immediately after the Tribulation, this is true, he comes back with us the Church, just like Rev. 19 says, on White horses. As for Rev. 13:7, you are assuming that there will be no Salvation's after the Rapture, but why ? There will be tons of people giving their lives to Christ after they see 100's of millions of Christians die. We will die when we are Raptured, we can not take our sinful bodies to heaven. That covers Rev. 14:12-13 also. Rev. 20:4 are the beheaded being judged so they can obtain the White Robes us Saints have when we marry Jess in Heaven before we come back with Jesus. Matthew 24 9-13 was in the Disciples times, Tribulation could not have happened before Matthew 24:14 because the end could not come until the Gospel is preached unto all the world, then the Abomination of Desolation happens in verse 15. Ephesians 4:4 doesn't stop people from coming to Christ after the Rapture !!

Note that the woman in Revelation (Apocalypse) chapter 12 represents the church (which is Israel:

The Woman is Israel, not the Church which is in Heaven.

Note that here the "man child" isn't Jesus, for Revelation 12:5 isn't about past things, but is part of the "things which must be hereafter"

The hereafter refers to the final product of Rev. 12, Israel fleeing into the wilderness. The Description of who the woman is, is no more before the Revelation than the 5 Kings who have already fallen, or the one King that WAS in Rev. 17. I hear that argument all the time, it make no sense.

 

[Riberra]

Yes I understand, but like many things in the bible, a lot of the bible has double meanings, but forgetting the "Come up here". we see that in Rev. 4 and 5 they kind of flow together, there were no chapters and verses, they were added about 500 years ago. So by reading Rev. 4 and 5 we see that Rev. 4 is about God and Hid Godhead and him sitting on the throne, then it transitions to chapter 5 and God is still sitting on the throne, and He has a book in His right hand (7 Seals) and He is looking for someone Worthy to open the Seals. No one is found in Heaven or earth, John starts to weep, and look who says JOHN....Stop crying man, it is an ELDER, the Church is in heaven and they sing a song praising the Worthiness of Christ who has redeemed them,

The 24 elders are celestial beings as well as the four beasts and the angels....archangels... cherubs...

See angelic hierarchy :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_angelic_hierarchy#Thrones

The "Thrones" (Greek: thronoi, pl. of thronos), or Elders, are a class of celestial beings mentioned by Paul of Tarsus in Colossians 1:16 (New Testament). They are living symbols of God's justice and authority, and have as one of their symbols the throne.

 

[Lulav]

YOUR ATTENTION PLEASE

Closing for Review​

 

[ewq1938]

 

[Bible2+]

Revealing Times said in post 447:

John starts to weep, and look who says JOHN....Stop crying man, it is an ELDER, the Church is in heaven and they sing a song praising the Worthiness of Christ who has redeemed them . . .

Note that the 24 elders in Revelation (Apocalypse) 4:4 could be 24 chief angels who, along with the 4 beasts/seraphims, have been worshipping God continually (as in 24 hours a day) for untold ages (Revelation 4:8-11, Isaiah 6:2-3). Just as the ancient Jewish temple on earth was modeled after the temple in heaven (Hebrews 9:23-24, Hebrews 8:5), so the 24 courses of the ancient Jewish priests on earth (1 Chronicles 24:7-18) could have been modeled after the 24 elders in heaven. God could have also patterned the 24 hours of the day on earth after the 24 elders in heaven. And he could have also patterned the church's 12 tribes of Israel and its 12 apostles (Revelation 21:9,12,14, Matthew 19:28), together forming the number 24, after the 24 elders in heaven.

At the time of Revelation 5:8-9, the 24 elders and 4 beasts/seraphims could be singing before God the prayers of the church (Revelation 5:8c), just as subsequently we see an angel offering before God the prayers of the church (Revelation 8:4). So in Revelation 5:9, the 24 elders and 4 beasts/seraphims can be singing words which don't apply to themselves, just as humans on earth can sing words which don't apply to themselves (e.g. James Taylor singing the words of the song "Millworker", which is the lament of a female millworker in the 19th century).

Also, the 24 elders wearing crowns (Revelation 4:4) doesn't forbid them (as is sometimes claimed) from being angels. For if even the weird locust-like beings and the devil can wear crowns (Revelation 9:7, Revelation 12:3,9), then some angels can wear crowns.

Also, the 24 elders wearing white clothing (Revelation 4:4) doesn't forbid them (as is sometimes claimed) from being angels, for angels can wear white clothing (Revelation 15:6, John 20:12).

Also, the 24 elders sitting on thrones (Revelation 4:4) doesn't forbid them (as is sometimes claimed) from being angels. For if even the devil can sit on a throne (Revelation 2:13, Revelation 13:2b), then some angels can sit on thrones.

Also, the 24 elders being called "elders" (Revelation 4:4) doesn't forbid them (as is sometimes claimed) from being angels, even though angels don't age. For they can be a special group of elder angels in the sense of them having been created sometime before other angels.

It is sometimes claimed that the 24 elders can't be angels because no other part of the Bible ever refers to angels as "elders". But this argument is like the argument of full preterism which claims that the "elements" in 2 Peter 3:10,12 can't be physical because all the other verses in the Bible where the original Greek word "stoicheion" (G4747) is used, refer to non-physical elements. The truth is that the "elements" in 2 Peter 3:10,12 can be the only place in the Bible where "stoicheion" is used to refer to physical elements, just as, for example, Revelation 6:6 can be (and in fact is) the only place in the Bible where the Greek word "choinix" (G5518) is used at all. Similarly, Revelation can be the only place where "elders" refers to angels.

It is sometimes claimed that the 24 elders can't be angels because they wear crowns of victory. But in Revelation 4:4, the original Greek word (stephanos: G4735) translated as crowns doesn't have to always refer to a crown of victory, but can sometimes refer to a crown signifying "honor generally" (Strong's Greek Dictionary). Also, angels can win victories (Revelation 12:7-9), and so can wear crowns of victory.

It is sometimes claimed that the 24 elders can't be angels because they perform physical acts (Revelation 4:10). But angels can perform physical acts, like how the 2 angels who rescued Lot and his family grabbed their hands to hasten them out of Sodom (Genesis 19:1,16).

Revealing Times said in post 447:

Rev. 20:4 are the beheaded being judged . . .

In Revelation (Apocalypse) 20:4, "I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them" refers to during the future millennium on the earth (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10), when, for example, the 12 apostles will sit on 12 thrones "judging" the 12 tribes of Israel (Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30) in the sense of ongoing rule, like how the "judges" ruled Israel in the book of Judges in the Old Testament.

Also, Revelation 20:4-6 doesn't mean that only those people in the church who will be beheaded by the Antichrist will be resurrected in the 1st resurrection and reign on the earth with Jesus during the millennium. For the 1st resurrection will be the physical resurrection of the dead of the entire church (of all times) at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). And every obedient person in the church (of all times) will reign on the earth with Jesus during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10).

Revealing Times said in post 447:

Matthew 24 9-13 was in the Disciples times, Tribulation could not have happened before Matthew 24:14 because the end could not come until the Gospel is preached unto all the world . . .

Matthew 24:14a will be fulfilled in our future, when the gospel will be preached to all nations during the future tribulation (Revelation 14:6). So "the end" in Matthew 24:14b refers to the end of the future tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18.

Revelation (Apocalypse) 14:6-20 will occur after the events of the future tribulation's first 6 trumpets up to Revelation 9:21, and at the start of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18). Revelation 14:9-11 will be a warning to people (including those in the church) not to worship the Antichrist or they will suffer the eternal wrath of God, which will be in the lake of fire and brimstone (Revelation 20:10,15, Matthew 25:41,46).

Revealing Times said in post 447:

We will die when we are Raptured . . .

Note that we will remain alive when we are raptured:

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air . . .

The church won't die and be changed into ghosts at Jesus' 2nd coming, but resurrected (if dead) or changed (if alive) into immortal flesh and bone bodies like Jesus was resurrected into on the 3rd day after his death (Luke 24:39,46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4,21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Romans 8:23-25).

Also, the purpose of the rapture (the catching up), in itself, isn't to change the bodies of living believers into immortal bodies, but to "catch up" both their changed bodies and the just-resurrected bodies of dead believers (of all times) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). The changed, living believers will be raptured (caught up) "together with them" (1 Thessalonians 4:17), that is, together with the just-resurrected dead believers (1 Thessalonians 4:16b-17).

When obedient believers' bodies will be raised/resurrected into spiritual/heavenly bodies (1 Corinthians 15:44-49), they will still be fleshly bodies, but no longer "natural" (i.e. no longer mortal) fleshly bodies (1 Corinthians 15:44,53). Instead, they will be immortal fleshly bodies like Jesus was raised/resurrected into on the 3rd day after his death (Luke 24:39,46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4,21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Romans 8:23-25), by the spiritual/heavenly power of the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:11,23-25, Romans 1:4; 1 Corinthians 15:44).

Revealing Times said in post 447:

Ephesians 4:4 doesn't stop people from coming to Christ after the Rapture !!

That's right, even under the post-tribulation-rapture view. For during the future millennium, after Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 66:15-21, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21), Jesus will send out evangelists/missionaries to the nations to preach the gospel and tell them all about the returned Jesus' fame and glory in Jerusalem (Isaiah 66:19), so that people will want to come up to Jerusalem to serve him (Isaiah 66:20-21, Micah 4:2, Zechariah 8:22-23).

People will be saved by Jesus during the millennium in the same way that people have always been saved by Jesus: through faith in him (John 3:16,36, John 14:6, Acts 4:12) and his New Covenant sacrifice for our sins (Matthew 26:28, Romans 3:25) and his physical resurrection from the dead on the 3rd day after his death (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Romans 10:9). And so people saved during the millennium will become part of the church, just as any people who had gotten saved during the preceding tribulation will have become part of the church. For now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

Those saved during the millennium will grow old and die just as people always have, but after the millennium and the subsequent Gog/Magog event (Revelation 20:7-9, Ezekiel chapters 38-39) they will be resurrected at the great white throne judgment along with all unsaved people of all times (Revelation 20:11-15). That is why not everyone at the great white throne judgment will be cast into the lake of fire, but only the unsaved (Revelation 20:15).

 

[victorinus]

the apocalypse
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666 -
babylon the great - constantinople -
rider of the white horse - constantine - from the white sea (mediterranean)
rider of the red horse - mohammed - from the red sea
rider of the black horse - marx - from the black sea
the first beast - the roman empire -
the second beast - islam -
the seven heads - the seven dynasties of the roman empire -
the ten horns - the ten islamic dynasties -
the thousand years - the byzantine empire -
the three johns - john the baptist and two more johns -
the two witnesses - church and state -
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the timeline of the apocalypse
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daniel
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it's a puzzle
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this is twenty years of research -
will discuss the results -
will present the books used -
looking forward to discussing all aspects of the apocalypse -
I chose not to use the Historicist Only tag because I want to include all in this dialogue

please use the links in the opening post to find my views on the apocalypse

 

[victorinus]

new jerusalem
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new york
new england
new rome
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how do you become a new something?
jerusalem was the center for the jews
what would be the center for the christians?
rome?
that would make it the new jerusalem
it has the river running through it 22:1
-river tiber
it has three gates in each direction 21:13
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the twelve gates in the inner wall of the city
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taking care to count only once the twelve double gates

 

[Bible2+]

victorinus said in post 453:

jerusalem was the center for the jews
what would be the center for the christians?

Note that just as Jerusalem was the original center for Christians (Romans 15:25), including Peter (Galatians 1:18) and the other apostles (Acts 1:4, Acts 15:4, Acts 16:4), so it can still be considered to be the (earthly) center for Christians. And at his 2nd coming, Christ will descend (with all the saints) to the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:4-5), just as he had ascended from there (Acts 1:9-12). He won't descend to Rome. And during the future millennium, the returned Christ will rule the earth from Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:8-21, Micah 4:1-4), not from Rome, just as he has never ruled from Rome.

Regarding the New Jerusalem, it is a literal city, 1,500 miles cubed (Revelation 21:16), with literal pearly gates and literal streets of gold (Revelation 21:21). It is God the Father's house in the 3rd heaven (Revelation 21:2-3, cf. 2 Corinthians 12:2b,4, Revelation 2:7b, Revelation 22:2,14), in which house Jesus left to prepare a place for the church (John 14:2). All those in the church, whether Jews or Gentiles, have figuratively come to New Jerusalem by coming under the New Covenant (Hebrews 12:22-24, Galatians 4:24-26), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34), and which only the church comes under by believing in Jesus' New Covenant suffering and death on the Cross for our sins (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), the very heart of the gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

The church looks for Jesus' return from heaven (Philippians 3:20), and the setting up of his physical kingdom on the earth with the physically resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). New Jerusalem won't descend from the 3rd heaven to the earth until after a new earth (a new surface of the earth) has been created (Revelation 21:1-4), sometime after the 1,000 years and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15). The church will physically live and reign in New Jerusalem with God the Father and Jesus on the new earth (Revelation 21:1 to 22:5). The Father and Jesus themselves will be the only temple in New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:22).

 

[victorinus]

The church looks for Jesus' return from heaven (Philippians 3:20), and the setting up of his physical kingdom on the earth with the physically resurrected church for 1,000 years

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where does is say Jesus will reign?

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[victorinus]

Zechariah 14 shows what happens after a great tumult.
It is done year by year.

so you agree that it doesn't say Jesus will reign for a thousand years?