The Alternative to a Rapture

[Divide]

Luke 21:36 Be on the alert, praying at all times for the strength to pass safely through all that is coming and to stand in the Presence of the Son of Man. Revised English Bible. 1987
The REB translates this verse correctly. Proved by Luke 21:34-35, just having stated: what is coming, will affect everyone the whole world over.

To make this KJV mis-translated scripture into a proof of a rapture, is seriously wrong and is not what it means at all.

That is an interesting point there. I'll chew on that one.

We are told in Rev 12:14, that then the faithful Christian group, will be taken to a place of safety on earth for that time and the rest of the Christians must remain. Rev 12:17
This separation is mentioned in Daniel 11:32 and in Zechariah 14:2b

And those in Judea flee to a place and dont look back. In other words, Israeli's.

The Gret Tribulations purpose is to bring the nation of Israel to a saving knowledge of the Messiah, Jesus the Christ! And Jesus will not return until Israel says, Blessed be the coming of the Lord. They finally accept Him as their Messiah.

That is a strange doctrine you speak. God did not abandon Israel! Geesh!

 

[Divide]

The House of Judah did not learn their lesson and they crucified their Messiah. Today they hardly acknowledge God and actively prohibit Christian proselytizing.

This is very true. It is also the very reason that God will make a GT. To shake Israel to it's core so that they return unto the Lord their God, and Jesus especially!

Throw God's people out with the bath water you want to say. I'm sorry, but God is not like that. 2/3 of the Jews will die in the GT. But you also have to remember how it is explained in scripture that, us Gentile christians are grafted into Israel like a branch.

God will never abandon Israel. Just read Romans 11!

 

[Divide]

The Jews become believers in Jesus in verse 10, becoming great tribulation saints. The ones in Judaea who flee to the mountains right away in verse 14 will be supernaturally protect from persecution.

You and I are on the same page Brother. This is about Israel!

I live in Ohio. How can I flee into the mountains of Judea? Translation? No. I am already gone by then! We are already gone!

 

[keras]

Apparently, you yourself are able to identify who Jews are by all your negative comments about them.

Jesus identified the apostate Jews as vipers and members of the synagogue of Satan.
Today, we can identify the real Jews by their circumcision of the heart. Romans 2:29 That is by their belief in Jesus and by keeping His Commandments. There will be a remnant who will survive the Lords Day of fiery wrath, to join with their Christian brethren in the holy Land for the end times. Isaiah 6:11-13

 

[keras]

If it is the same event of Jesus returning for His Bride and to put His enemies down, it doesnt make sense. But if it is two seperate events, then it makes perfect sense.

Can you explain that for me?

They are not the same event, The terrible Day the Lord will send His fiery wrath, the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, is the one which we don't know when it will happen.
When Jesus Returns, those who know the Bible, will be able to count 1260 days from when the Temple is desecrated to the glorious Return.

That doesn't sound like God abandoned Israel to me! You sir, are incorrect. Go read Romans 11 and see for yourself! God is not through with Israel!

Thinking that the Jewish State of Israel is the only Israel, is your mistake. Anybody can claim to be whatever they like, that does not make them it.
There are some true descendants of Judah in Israel, the rest are Arabs and wannabees, like the Ethiopians, who escaped their basket case country.

The true Israelites of God are people from every tribe, race, nation and language, Rev 5:9-10, who believe in Jesus and keep His Commandments.

So what is the purpose of the Great Tribulation?

To punish those who have taken the mark of the 'beast'.

I live in Ohio. How can I flee into the mountains of Judea? Translation? No. I am already gone by then! We are already gone!

Plan A - Rapture to heaven. Wonderful belief, take me outta here Lord!
I suggest that you have a Plan B. That plan is to stand firm in your faith thru all that must happen and to endure until the end.

Plan A: Nowhere does the Bible Prophets say the Lord will take His people to live in heaven.
Plan B: Many verses prove we must remain on the earth, as we pass thru the time of testing. 1 Peter 4:12

 

[Divide]

They are not the same event, The terrible Day the Lord will send His fiery wrath, the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, is the one which we don't know when it will happen.
When Jesus Returns, those who know the Bible, will be able to count 1260 days from when the Temple is desecrated to the glorious Return.

So if we don't know when it will happen, how can you say it does not happen before the GT?

You said before that we meet Jesus in the air and then come right back with Him to put the enemies down. So our first date with Jesus is a gang fight? Where He instructs us to go hide at our home on earth and pull the covers up over our head?

That's preposterous brother.

 

[Divide]

Thinking that the Jewish State of Israel is the only Israel, is your mistake. Anybody can claim to be whatever they like, that does not make them it.
There are some true descendants of Judah in Israel, the rest are Arabs and wannabees, like the Ethiopians, who escaped their basket case country.

So you didn't read Romans 11. Or simply disregarded it.

The true Israelites of God are people from every tribe, race, nation and language, Rev 5:9-10, who believe in Jesus and keep His Commandments.

So what are you saying here? That if we dont go to Israel then we wont be raptured?

To punish those who have taken the mark of the 'beast'.

That is patently false. The purpose of the great trib is to bring Israel to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. The church may be gone but this is only to provoke the Jews to Jealousy and further point them to Jesus. It doesnt mean that the Lord does away with Israel. Do you know how many unfulfilled prophecies there are of promises made to Israel about different things? Just when do you expect the Lord to fufill these promises?

Plan A - Rapture to heaven. Wonderful belief, take me outta here Lord!
I suggest that you have a Plan B. That plan is to stand firm in your faith thru all that must happen and to endure until the end.

Scripture says for us to watch for His return for us. So please tell me what danger I am in by looking out the window into the sky for he return of Jesus sooner than you start looking?

Why do you suggest to me to not be looking for the Lord sooner? Please xplain your warning.

Plan A: Nowhere does the Bible Prophets say the Lord will take His people to live in heaven.
Plan B: Many verses prove we must remain on the earth, as we pass thru the time of testing. 1 Peter 4:12

The Bible says: I go to prepare a place for you so that I can come and take you to myself...
Then it says that when He returns that He will bring the Saints with Him.
Go into your homes my people and hide yourself. Where? On earth?! Lol!

But we don't stay in Heaven. We return with Him and then live on this earth for 1000 years reigning with Him. Then after that this earth is destroyed and there is a new heaven and new earth, where the New Jerusalem comes down for our final destination...

But don't watch for Jesus he said!

How come you do those vague changes to subject when you supposedly answer questions? Why can't you answer questions directly?

 

[Timtofly]

That's not a resurrection but a departure. Adam's soul departed his body at the time of his death.

No, all theology teaches that when Adam and Eve sinned, that they died as a consequence.

You don't believe in the resurrection of the dead in Christ ?

1Thessalonians4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

My point is when your soul leaves Adam's dead corruptible flesh. I am not going to assume anything about Adam when he physically died.


The last day resurrection for those in Abraham's bosom was the day of the Cross when they came out of their graves.


Do you think we are still souls in Abraham's bosom?

Of course the redeemed rise first. They have been rising since the Cross. It does not say they come out of their graves first. That is an assumption every one asserts about that verse. They actually rise from Paradise because Jesus brings them with Him. We meet in the air between Paradise and earth.

 

[Douggg]

My point is when your soul leaves Adam's dead corruptible flesh. I am not going to assume anything about Adam when he physically died.


The last day resurrection for those in Abraham's bosom was the day of the Cross when they came out of their graves.


Do you think we are still souls in Abraham's bosom?

Of course the redeemed rise first. They have been rising since the Cross. It does not say they come out of their graves first. That is an assumption every one asserts about that verse. They actually rise from Paradise because Jesus brings them with Him. We meet in the air between Paradise and earth.

Abraham's bosom is in one verse in the bible, in Luke 16:22. It does not apply to Christians.

The resurrection of the dead in Christ is in the event of 1Thessalonians4:15-18 which is also described in 1Corinthians15:

1Corinthians15;52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

 

[Divide]

Our spirit and our soul are inseperable. So when our body dies, our spirit & soul go back to God and our body goes to the grave. At the rapture the passed on Believers bodies will resurect and be joined with our spirit & soul again, but in the same instant, we shall be transformed into our new spiritual body.

 

[keras]

So if we don't know when it will happen, how can you say it does not happen before the GT?

The great and terrible Day of the Lord's fiery wrath, is before the Great Tribulation. I estimate at least 10years before Jesus Returns.

That's preposterous brother.

It is the theory of going to live in heaven, that is preposterous.

So you didn't read Romans 11. Or simply disregarded it.

Paul states that there two Israels. One of the flesh, who are visible today as the Jewish people. The Israelis.

The other is Spiritual Israel, as Paul makes abundantly clear in Ephesians 2:11-18. They are the Christian peoples: Gods Israelites. Galatians 6:14-16

That if we dont go to Israel then we wont be raptured?

Well, the only ones 'raptured' will be the two Witnesses, but it is our destiny to go to live in the holy Land, being God's Light to the nations. Ezekiel 39:27

That is patently false. The purpose of the great trib is to bring Israel to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. The church may be gone but this is only to provoke the Jews to Jealousy and further point them to Jesus.

This belief, an immutable tenet of the rapture theory, is so far from Bible teaching as to be a straight out Satanic lie.
The Great Trib of the 7 Trumpets and the 7 Bowls, is aimed at the ungodly peoples, the ones who worship the 'beast' and have his mark. Revelation 9:20-21, Revelation 16:11
It will be the Jews who will have gone and only a remnant will survive. Isaiah 29:1-4

Why do you suggest to me to not be looking for the Lord sooner? Please xplain your warning.

The Prophesies are certain, Jesus won't Return until all of Revelation up to Rev 19:10, has been completed.
I repeat: It is the Lords Day of vengeance and wrath, that is to come unexpectedly. He won't be seen on that Day.

The Bible says: I go to prepare a place for you so that I can come and take you to myself...
Then it says that when He returns that He will bring the Saints with Him.
Go into your homes my people and hide yourself. Where? On earth?! Lol!

1/ John 14:1-4 refers to the New Jerusalem; after the Millennium. You can't disagree with this, as you cannot show it happening before then.
2/ Jesus Returns accompanied only by the angel army of heaven.
3/ On the Day of the Lord's fiery wrath, we are told to take shelter from the extreme heat, violent earthquakes and powerful storms.

Why can't you answer questions directly?

I do, Why can't you understand Bible truths?

 

[Divide]

Paul states that there two Israels. One of the flesh, who are visible today as the Jewish people. The Israelis.

The other is Spiritual Israel, as Paul makes abundantly clear in Ephesians 2:11-18. They are the Christian peoples: Gods Israelites. Galatians 6:14-16

It says right in v11 that he is talking about Gentiles. We get grafted in. It is one new man brother, not two.

 

[Divide]

The great and terrible Day of the Lord's fiery wrath, is before the Great Tribulation. I estimate at least 10years before Jesus Returns.

Scripture? Of course not! Therefore, Opinion. You can have any opinion you want. But you havent proven anything.

It is the theory of going to live in heaven, that is preposterous.

Do you have low comprehension? I already explained to you that we are only there for 7 years until the end of the GT. Then we come back to earth with Jesus for 1000 years. Then a new heaven & earth and the New Jerusalem.

Well, the only ones 'raptured' will be the two Witnesses, but it is our destiny to go to live in the holy Land, being God's Light to the nations. Ezekiel 39:27

So no Christians in all the world except Israel? Can you hear what you are saying? That's the most wackadoodle thing I have ever heard.

This belief, an immutable tenet of the rapture theory, is so far from Bible teaching as to be a straight out Satanic lie.
The Great Trib of the 7 Trumpets and the 7 Bowls, is aimed at the ungodly peoples, the ones who worship the 'beast' and have his mark. Revelation 9:20-21, Revelation 16:11
It will be the Jews who will have gone and only a remnant will survive. Isaiah 29:1-4

As far as I can tell christians will only be on the earth up until the 4th bowl of wrath is poured out. By the 5th bowl, we are gone. I'd tell you how, I have it here. But you could only snark at it being unable to refute it properly, so I wont waste my time.

Besides, you still wont address the two main reasons that I believe in a pretrib rapture. One is the doctrine of Imminency, and the 2nd is, there is just too many scriptures which promise that us christians do not have to suffer God's wrath.

Unless you address those with coherency, I'm done listening to your nonsense.
Geez, I asked you what danger? Explain the danger of me looking out the window now (early) for Jesus because you clearly paint that to be dangerous to my life and soul....but can't say why? Ok, I'ma just sit back and laugh now. Whatever.

 

[keras]

It says right in v11 that he is talking about Gentiles. We get grafted in. It is one new man brother, not two.

We get grafted into the Jewish State? I don't think so.
Can you and others, not understand that the Jewish nation of Israel, are not God's people and have never been since they rejected and killed the Son of God. Matthew 21:43.
Many Prophesies tell of their virtual demise in the forthcoming Day the Lord will send His fiery wrath, Ezekiel 21:1-7. Isaiah 29:1-4, Jeremiah 7:30-34

Scripture? Of course not! Therefore, Opinion. You can have any opinion you want. But you havent proven anything.

The Lord's Day of wrath is the Sixth Seal. Revelation 6:17
The Scroll which Jesus received from God, Revelation 5:7, must have the Seals removed before its contents can be actioned.

The general sequence of Revelation is correct, we are told to not mess with it.

Do you have low comprehension? I already explained to you that we are only there for 7 years until the end of the GT.

You display your hardened attitude toward anyone who challenges your precious beliefs.
Living in heaven for 7 years, eh? Of what use is that to God, who made us earth people and for we Christians; our Commission to spread the Gospel. UNTIL HE RETURNS. Matthew 28:20 Seems your comprehension level is sub zero.

So no Christians in all the world except Israel? Can you hear what you are saying? That's the most wackadoodle thing I have ever heard.

I said: only the 2 Witnesses will be raptured. Revelation 11:12
Wakadoodle applies to the beyond Sci-fi and fairy tale of humans going to live in Gods dwelling place. Especially before any testing and Judgment.

As far as I can tell christians will only be on the earth up until the 4th bowl of wrath is poured out. By the 5th bowl, we are gone. I'd tell you how, I have it here. But you could only snark at it being unable to refute it properly, so I wont waste my time.

PTL
However I am enjoying playing 'whack a mole' with your weird and wonderful fables.

Besides, you still wont address the two main reasons that I believe in a pretrib rapture. One is the doctrine of Imminency, and the 2nd is, there is just too many scriptures which promise that us christians do not have to suffer God's wrath.

This is better discussion.
Imminency, is in most cases used to alert us to what is to come and it is often in Gods timing, not ours. 2 Peter 3:8
But what is imminent right now, is the Day when the Lord will send fire to destroy His enemies, esp in the Middle East region. It will be triggered by Iran attempting to fire a nuke missile to Israel.
There is never even a hint that God will remove us from the earth to avoid His wrath. Luke 21:35 is clear; it will come upon everyone the whole world over.

Right; Gods wrath is never directed toward faithful Christians. Many prophesies tell us how He will protect us on that terrible Day. Isaiah 43:2, Psalms 91:1-16, 1 Corinthians 10:13, +

Geez, I asked you what danger?

You are in danger, if you believe and teach false theories, then your 'works' will be burned up by Jesus at His Return. 1 Corinthians 3:12-15
My advice to rapture believers, is to not promote and teach it. There simply isn't a definitive prophecy to support it and many, many scriptures tell of the alternative, as I posted in the OP, but no one, least of all; you, has refuted it.

 

[keras]

Go, My people, withdraw for a little while.....
Isaiah 26:20-21.....until the Lords wrath has passed. The Lord is coming to punish the wicked and apostate peoples of the earth. Isaiah 66:15-17, Revelation 6:12-17

Isaiah 27:1 On that Day, the Lord will punish with His powerful sword Leviathan, that twisting serpent.

Isaiah 27:2-5 On that day, sing of the fruitful vineyard – I the Lord am it’s keeper. I tend it constantly, but I get no fruit from it. If only it were briars and thorns, then I would not hesitate to destroy it. But if they [Israelites, now every faithful Christian person] come to Me for refuge, I will let them make peace with Me.

Isaiah 27:6 In time to come, Jacobs posterity will prosper and Israel will flourish. They will fill the whole earth with fruit. Matthew 21:43

Isaiah 27:7-9 Has the Lord struck Israel, as He has killed their enemies? The atonement for Jacob’s guilt is made by their sojourn in exile. All the idol worshipping altars and sacred poles are destroyed.

Isaiah 27:10 The fortified settlement is abandoned. Animals graze there and the trees are dead, good only for firewood.

Isaiah 27:11 For this is a people without understanding, so their Maker will not show them favour.

Isaiah 27:12 In that day, the Lord will thresh the grain from the Euphrates to the Wadi of Egypt and you:Israelites will be gathered one by one. [Individual Overcomers] On that Day, a great trumpet will sound and those who were exiled in Assyria and Egypt will come to worship the Lord in Jerusalem.
Ref: REB, NIV some verses abridged

V 20-21 Go My people…. This a complete and utter refutation of the false teaching of a ‘rapture’ removal.

All righteous people, faithful Christians who love the Lord, need to prepare for a time, soon after the Lords Day of vengeance, when the Call comes to gather into the Promised Land. Isaiah 35:1-10, Ezekiel 34:11-16, Romans 9:24-26

V 1 The Lords Day of wrath and vengeance against His enemies, who are led by Satan allegorised as a serpent. Isaiah 30:27-28

V 2-5 The Lord’s vineyard: People who acknowledge and trust God, He will save them.

V 6 Israel, that is: some of the 12 tribes, plus those grafted in who are faithful believers, settled into the Land, they will be His witnesses and the Light to the nations.

V 7-9 The sins of the forefathers are expiated by their exile. Isaiah 10:27

V 10 The Land, cleared and swept clean after the Day of vengeance. The trees are killed because of the fire the Lord will send: a CME sunstrike. Isaiah 30:26, Joel 1:15-20, Isaiah 32:12-14, Malachi 4:1

V 11 This refers to the current inhabitants of the Land. Jeremiah 12:14

V 12 On that day, all the Middle East region will be judged and punished. A Jewish remnant will be saved. But then the surviving exiles from Assyria [the 10 Northern tribes] and Egypt [Judah] will gather into all of the Holy Land, along with every faithful Christian from every race, nation and language. Isaiah 66:18b-21, Zechariah 9:14-17, Revelation 7:9