The Achilles Heel of Atheism

[Cearbhall]

That sounds like objective meaning if I didn't know better

Well, I still use words like "good" and "evil." I just don't attach the same objective meaning to them that some people do.

Or arguably it helped us to enjoy life that doesn't have an objective meaning?

Yep. I am definitely a fan of the endocrine and nervous systems (most of the time).

 

[Elioenai26]

Which does not mean life is not meaningful.

For the n-th time, to reiterate the point you are steadfastly evading addressing, this is only significant to those people who (a) think objective meaning is needed for life to be meaningful (b) think "what god says" is equivalent to objective meaning.

Neither (a) nor (b) have been justified by you. You may want to start instead of engaging in your usual casuistry.

Look at yourself in the mirror, it should be significant to you most of all.

You are the one who keeps insisting people are somehow wrong.

But ultimately, we all determine what is meaningful. Maybe some people find meaning in being wrong or going against the crowd.

Who are you to criticize?

 

[Gadarene]

You are the one who keeps insisting people are somehow wrong.

And you are the one who insists on life being ultimately meaningful.

But ultimately, we all determine what is meaningful. Maybe some people find meaning in being wrong or going against the crowd.

Is this an admission that you are wrong and are just going against the crowd?

If not, stop obfuscating and justify (a) and (b). Assuming, of course, that you can.

 

[Gadarene]

According to the reality of an indifferent cosmos.

Again, you are intentionally neglecting to address your

So what? It is meaningful to me. Surely you will not reserve the right to determine what is meaningful for yourself, yet deny me the same right now will you?

I'm not telling you not to determine it. I'm asking you to justify it. Stop evading.

Some might find meaning in believing in an inaccurate position. That is their meaning, it makes them feel good, kind of like the anal sex homosexuals have.

Who are you to criticize?

Is this your stance? If not, stop evading.

Who cares?

Some people may find meaning in posting on internet forums and being evasive?

Who are you to judge????????

Is this your stance? If not, stop evading.

You see my point right?

On one hand you want everything you say to be true and meaningful, and yet if someone disagrees with you, you do not allow them the same freedom and tolerance you demand.

Nope. I'm asking you to justify your actual stance, not prat about with stances you don't actually hold in a feeble attempt to avoid justifying your own stance.

I have not evaded clarifying what my stance is, nor have I obfuscated on it, nor have I claimed anyone should not determine meaning themselves. Perfectly consistent, unlike some I could care to mention.

As long as what you say is accepted you are all happy and cheerful and peachy, but let someone else come along who disagrees and now they are wrong, or inaccurate.

You're not disagreeing sincerely, Eliarnai. You're just making stupid excuses to not respond to questions asked about your stance.

You think life has objective meaning - I'm asking you to justify the assumptions underlying that claim.

Stop evading, and justify (a) and (b).

But according to you, there is no ultimate meaning anyway. So do not have any legs to stand on whatsoever.

So what is your point?

Determining the meaning of life is separate from answering questions on one's stance.

Do you need it in a bigger font?

 

[Elioenai26]

Determining the meaning of life is separate from answering questions on one's stance.

What if a person's meaning in life is derived from them talking to people like you and being evasive and not answering questions on their stance?

What would you have to say about that?


You say life is ultimately meaningless and that each person determines what is meaningful.

So let us say that hypothetically we have some members of a certain religion who find meaning in expressing their views but not defending them.

What could you say to them?

All you could say is that: "Hey that is you and I respect that you find meaning that way. I happen to think differently but ultimately it is all meaningless."

That is the most you could say.

 

[Gadarene]

What if a person's meaning in life is derived from them talking to people like you and being evasive and not answering questions on one's stance?

What would you have to say about that?

Is this your actual stance?

If not, stop evading. Justify (a) and (b), if you can.

 

[Elioenai26]

Is this your actual stance?

If not, stop evading. Justify (a) and (b), if you can.

You know that is not my stance, but what could you say?

 

[Gadarene]

You know that is not my stance, but what could you say?

I could say what I've been saying all along.

You're very quick to demand that people like Cearbhall back up their claims, but you are incredibly weaselly and slippery whenever anyone asks the same of you. Hypocritical as ever.

Cut the evading out, and justify (a) and (b) - if you can.

 

[bhsmte]

It has appeared to me, that the folks that are so desperate to identify the meaning of life are the same ones that apply a "supreme being" meaning to it.

To me, the meaning of life is what you want it to be and whatever that me be, it proves or disproves nothing.

 

[Elioenai26]

I could say what I've been saying all along.

You're very quick to demand that people like Cearbhall back up their claims, but you are incredibly weaselly and slippery whenever anyone asks the same as you. Hypocritical as ever.

Cut the evading out, and justify (a) and (b) - if you can.

I have been supporting and defending my claims for over a year now with various arguments and lines of evidence for the existence of God.

Even if you do not find the arguments convincing, what you cannot say is that I have not endeavored to back up my claims.

Now if you want to explain to me what A and B have to do with the non-existence of ultimate meaning under atheism, then go ahead.

The undeniable truth still stands:

On an atheistic view of reality, ultimately this very conversation we are having is meaningless as well as the love you have shared with your loved ones, the tears you have cried, the good times you have shared, everything....every memory....every joyful occasion.....all of it is ultimately utterly illusory and meaningless.

 

[Gadarene]

I have been supporting and defending my claims for over a year now with various arguments and lines of evidence for the existence of God.

Even if you do not find the arguments convincing, what you cannot say is that I have not endeavored to back up my claims.

Then post links to where you have already justified A and B.

Now if you want to explain to me what A and B have to do with the non-existence of ultimate meaning under atheism, then go ahead.

Why would I do that? It is not my claim.

Anyway - links to your justification of a and b, please. Try and be quicker about it, hm?

 

[Aeroflotte]

It has appeared to me, that the folks that are so desperate to identify the meaning of life are the same ones that apply a "supreme being" meaning to it.

To me, the meaning of life is what you want it to be and whatever that me be, it proves or disproves nothing.

Take a look at the MBTI categories of personality. You'll see that some people are more compelled than others to project meaning upon the universe. These personalities take control by establishing order to the universe. It's quite compulsive.

 

[Elioenai26]

To me, the meaning of life is what you want it to be and whatever that me be, it proves or disproves nothing.

So if a serial pedophile finds meaning in life by raping children, and ultimately there is no objective meaning, no life after death, no judgment, no heaven, no hell, simply nothingness, then what of the pedophile?

He ultimately is no worse or no better off than the person who spent their entire lives giving to others, helping the hurt, feeding the poor, visiting the sick.... Hitler is no better or worse off than Mother Teresa.

So even if atheism IS TRUE, we still should not live as if meaning is subjectively determined which is what atheism implies.

 

[Elioenai26]

Then post links to where you have already justified A and B.



Why would I do that? It is not my claim.

Anyway - links to your justification of a and b, please. Try and be quicker about it, hm?

You agreed that life is ultimately meaningless under atheism.

Why provide evidence for what you already hold to be true?

 

[Cearbhall]

Weeellll that eugenics thread was nice while it lasted...

Take a look at the MBTI categories of personality. You'll see that some people are more compelled than others to project meaning upon the universe. These personalities take control by establishing order to the universe. It's quite compulsive.

Interesting. I know my own MBTI label, so I should go see where it falls...

 

[Gadarene]

You agreed that life is ultimately meaningless under atheism.

Why provide evidence for what you already hold to be true?

Because that's a false dichotomy. Theism does not necessarily entail objective meaning. Why is god's opinion about what is meaningful automatically mean it is objectively meaningful? It could arguably be just a rather unique brand of subjective opinion.

 

[Gadarene]

Weeellll that eugenics thread was nice while it lasted...

Hilarious, at best.

 

[Elioenai26]

Because that's a false dichotomy. Theism does not necessarily entail objective meaning. Why is god's opinion about what is meaningful automatically mean it is objectively meaningful? It could arguably be just a rather unique brand of subjective opinion.

We are talking about atheism not theism.

Under an atheistic view of reality, there is no ultimate meaning.

Under theism, the cosmos is the direct effect of a Divine Mind and Will that created life with intent and purpose. This Divine Will and Mind is what gives life meaning.

So the question is:

Does God exist?

 

[Gadarene]

We are talking about atheism not theism.

Under an atheistic view of reality, there is no ultimate meaning.

Under theism, the cosmos is the direct effect of a Divine Mind and Will that created life with intent and purpose. This Divine Will and Mind is what gives life meaning.

So the question is:

Does God exist?

No, I am talking about your theistic claims. More evasion.

I'm asking you to justify the assumptions behind your claims, or if you have already done so, to post a link to where you did so.

Can you actually do this, or can't you?

 

[Aeroflotte]

So if a serial pedophile finds meaning in life by raping children, and ultimately there is no objective meaning, no life after death, no judgment, no heaven, no hell, simply nothingness, then what of the pedophile?

He ultimately is no worse or no better off than the person who spent their entire lives giving to others, helping the hurt, feeding the poor, visiting the sick.... Hitler is no better or worse off than Mother Teresa.

So even if atheism IS TRUE, we still should not live as if meaning is subjectively determined which is what atheism implies.

So if atheism were true, and we were all atheists, then we shouldn't believe what we believe because we believe it?