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The Achilles Heel of Atheism

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Dave Ellis

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The Achilles Heel of Atheism is also the Achilles Heel of anyone making proclamations about the immaterial. There is no emprical proof either way.


How do you figure? The total lack of empirical evidence is the justification for the Atheist position.
 
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JGG

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The Achilles Heel of Atheism is also the Achilles Heel of anyone making proclamations about the immaterial. There is no emprical proof either way.

Well, I'm not sure most atheists make a proclamation about the immaterial. Usually, they just say "I don't believe in that."
 
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Dave Ellis

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To say 'there is not God' is a proclamation.

That is a proclamation... however that's not what Atheism in it's broadest definition states. The vast majority of Atheists would never make that proclamation, so you are misrepresenting the Atheistic position.

They can't possibly render a verdict because the Judaeo-Christian God brought the material into existence, thus His being could not depend on the material.

What are you talking about... What material?
 
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Steve Petersen

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Dave Ellis

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What would they say? There is no 'evidence' for the existence of God. That is really more an Agnostic position.

Agnosticism and Atheism are not mutually exclusive. Agnosticism has nothing to do with belief or lack of belief in the existence of God.

There's two possible positions someone can have when it comes to belief. They either have a positive belief about something, or they lack a positive belief.

In theological terms, that's Theism and Atheism. If you have a positive belief God exists, you're a Theist. If you do not hold a positive belief (either in a state of indecision or outright rejection), you're an Atheist.

Gnosticism and Agnosticism deals with knowledge.

A Gnostic Christian would claim to know exactly what God is, and that they know he exists. Likewise a Gnostic Atheist would claim to absolutely know that God does not exist.

An Agnostic Christian would claim that God's ways are beyond comprehension and that we can't know his true nature or plan. Most Christian Churches are actually agnostic organizations, and the Catholic Church openly persecuted the Gnostics.

An Agnostic Atheist claims that we can't say for sure that God doesn't exist, but due to a lack of evidence supporting that idea, they can not justify belief in him.

The vast majority of Atheists, including likely everyone on here, and most, if not all of the "famous Atheists" (i.e. Dawkins) would fit under the Agnostic Atheist label.


The physical universe/multiverse, whatever you want to call it. It is all material.

Ok, but even if you're right that still doesn't prove your God. If he's made up of something other than matter and energy, we still have no idea what that is, and have never detected it. That means we lack evidence that would justify belief in him.
 
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Steve Petersen

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Ok, but even if you're right that still doesn't prove your God. If he's made up of something other than matter and energy, we still have no idea what that is, and have never detected it. That means we lack evidence that would justify belief in him.

That was not my point. My point is that both camps (theist and atheist) are on the same weak ground: there is no way to prove/disprove the existence of a God because we have no way to assess things that are not matter or energy.
 
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ToddNotTodd

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That was not my point. My point is that both camps (theist and atheist) are on the same weak ground: there is no way to prove/disprove the existence of a God because we have no way to assess things that are not matter or energy.

As was just pointed out to you, the atheist position is not "god does not exist". It is "I do not believe in a god or gods.". A lack of evidence is why atheists are atheists in the first place.
 
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Gracchus

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That was not my point. My point is that both camps (theist and atheist) are on the same weak ground: there is no way to prove/disprove the existence of a God because we have no way to assess things that are not matter or energy.
And there is no way to prove or disprove leprechauns, unicorns, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or talking snakes.

 
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Elioenai26

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Mr. Petersen,

I too, used to understand that atheism was the view of not believing in God.

However, from several gentlemen here who have given me a better and deeper understanding of what atheism is today, the position ecompasses a wide ranging and eclectic mixture of ideas, thoughts, beliefs and views.

Most will confirm that atheism is "the lack of belief in gods or God". Now you can better understand the vast amounts of interpretations that may fall under the umbrella of this definition.

The position itself makes no positive assertions as to the existence or non-existence of God. Now assuredly there are some atheists that categorically deny the existence of God. However, I do not think that most atheists here maintain that position though.

I beleive that a good many here simply reserve the right to maintain that they lack a belief in gods or God, and if I may not be presumptuous, I may even say that they do so because they believe that there is no good evidence to believe. This is the position that I believe Belk, and Gadarene hold to, who are two gentlemen I have spoken with at length about this topic.

So if you understand this definition Mr. Petersen, you will be better able to refute it or critique it if you so desire.

If I am mistaken in what I have said, I hope someone will help me to understand better my error.
 
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Elioenai26

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My dear sister,

The Lord Jesus has used you in such a way that I can scarcely take it all in. My heart is full and you cease not to encourage me and help me more than you know, more than you know. I agree with you that God's love is so great that He sent His Son to die for all of us! Not just some of us. Such a love compels me to love Him more and more as the Day draws near.

And I have received this love from your words this day.

I love you Amber Bird,

Yours in Christ
 
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Genersis

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Dave Ellis

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That was not my point. My point is that both camps (theist and atheist) are on the same weak ground: there is no way to prove/disprove the existence of a God because we have no way to assess things that are not matter or energy.


As I said, Atheism is not about disproving God.

Most Atheists will readily admit it may be impossible to categorically disprove every possible concept of God (i.e. a Deistic Model of God is certainly unable to be disproven).

It's about a lack of acceptance of existing God claims. We don't find any argument for God that we've been presented with compelling. Therefore we do not believe them to be true.

That doesn't mean we rule them out as impossible, they just haven't met their burden of proof to make acceptance of those claims justifiable.
 
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Dave Ellis

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That's very well stated.... couldn't have said it better myself
 
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Ken-1122

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How are you defining God? Is our family our God? Would you consider our children our God? Please explain what it is that you call God.

Ken
 
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jpcedotal

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As was just pointed out to you, the atheist position is not "god does not exist". It is "I do not believe in a god or gods.". A lack of evidence is why atheists are atheists in the first place.

I think that is a statement of the a minority of atheists, not the majority. Almost all the atheists on here will tell you under no uncertain terms that God does not exist.

One way strong atheists and fundamental Christians are alike is that neither group gives two cents about political correctness.

Don't get me wrong, I can respect a person who puts "personal believed truth" over political correctness any day...right or wrong.

The "I do not believe" argument just doesn't wash for me. That is not the atheists movement stance.
 
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Eudaimonist

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all the atheists on here will tell you under no uncertain terms that God does not exist.

No, that sort of atheist is definitely in the minority. What most will say is that they aren't convinced by arguments in favor of God's existence, so they lack belief.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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jpcedotal

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How are you defining God? Is our family our God? Would you consider our children our God? Please explain what it is that you call God.

Ken

yes. one's children and/or wife can be one's god.

Matthew 10:34-37 "Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. (35) For I have come to 'SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW'; (36) and 'A MAN'S ENEMIES WILL BE THOSE OF HIS OWN HOUSEHOLD.' (37) He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.

This is Jesus Christ Himself talking.

Anything or anyone a person puts above God is his/her god...
 
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Belk

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The only part I would change is the bolded. Atheists themselves hold a wide range of beliefs since the only common denominator is their lack of belief in a god. Atheism, in and of itself, encompasses only one idea.

Other then that I believe I would agree with your post.
 
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