THE ABSURDITY OF FREE WILL !!

iamlamad

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I think John the Baptist might have been born again in his mother's womb?

Jesus told somebody tonight your whole family will be saved.

M-Bob
No, being born again of the Holy Spirit was simply impossible until Jesus died (for our sins) and rose from the dead to conquer death.

Always remember, there is the Holy Spirit "upon" or "on" for the anointing - and there is the Holy Spirit within as in being born again. These are two different and separate works of the Holy Spirit for two different purposes. Being born again makes us a part of God's family. I am convinced - we get God's DNA in our new spirit man.

Under the Old Covenant - which John was a part - no one was born again, but some were anointed - or as it was written in the Old Testament that they were filled with the Holy Spirit.
 
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iamlamad

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No one is forced into heaven. It is the place that all born again ones that have been given a new heart by the Holy Spirit wish to be. That would be our goal. Born again ones wish to finish the good race. Others (on their own) cannot find the starting line.

M-Bob
It is true that the Holy Spirit draws people towards God, and without that, it would be impossible to come to God. Nevertheless, people have a choice to respond to the Holy Spirit or reject Him. God never forces anyone against their will.
 
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iamlamad

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Good day, Iamlamad

I do not believe I said force... it is simple cause and effect .

Eze 36:26 I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh, and I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

Again scripture is very clear I will post it again nothing to do with the will of man in the rebirth, only God's will. Man cannot reborn himself. He would never go against man's will tell that to the prophet in the belly of the whale.

Jn 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Wow.... there is a lot here not sure how much of this is Biblical seeing you did not quote any Scripture
I never imagined quoting Jn1 would bring up so much...

God is the primary, sufficient and instrumental cause in man's believing. Faith and repentance are both gifts from God to His adopted son's and daughters. The Gospel is the power unto salvation and never returns to God void always does as he has intended. Some it hardens and some it saves, but that is determined by God intention.

Faith cause.. works that we are ordained to walk in effects.. cause them to walk in my statues.

Jn 6:37

All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

The Father gives ( cause)
Will come (effect)

God does not "do what he can" and fail in his intention, he is the God that does what so ever he chooses ( supreme free-will) according to His good pleasure.

There you have salvation in a nut shell.. it is wholly a work of God.

Deacon Dean has provided some really good stuff here for you to consider. Has he always does.

In Him,
Bill
There is a flaw in your thinking. God is not willing that ANY should perish. In other words, it is HIS WILL that all come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ and be born again. But yet, we find millions, even of people that have heard the gospel, lost, because they rejected what they heard.
We find more millions that have not heard.

So WHY are not all men saved? Maybe God just don't like those that are not saved?
 
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iamlamad

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The Holy Spirit regenerates one causing them to be born again -- giving us a new heart.

True -- then he will desire God.

Possibly thinking we played a big part?

Not realizing God did everything.

Once understood a much more humbling understanding.

Best knowing that old wretched Bob was pretty much completely kept out of the process for it would have only been tarnished if he had anything to do with it.

Sometimes man forgets just how wicked he is.

M-Bob
Sorry, but God did not do everything for Bob. Bob had to be willing.
 
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There is a flaw in your thinking. God is not willing that ANY should perish. In other words, it is HIS WILL that all come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ and be born again. But yet, we find millions, even of people that have heard the gospel, lost, because they rejected what they heard.
We find more millions that have not heard.

So WHY are not all men saved? Maybe God just don't like those that are not saved?

Good Day, Iamlamad

You have there a baseless assertion, that you have yet to prove. So any conclusions drawn are useless.

All Men are not saved because God in the use of his freedom is under no obligation to save them.

I will Mercy.. (verb) who I will (to) Mercy (verb to the highest degree of intent of action)


Do you have any intent of dealing with Scriptural texts?

Eze 36:26 I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh, and I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

Who/ what is the cause of our walking?

In Him,

Bill
 
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iamlamad

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In Vol III does Hodge address the Office and Work of the Holy Spirit. In chapter 8, of Vol I, Theology proper, there are only three sections and they are:

1) His Nature

2) The Office of the Holy Spirit

3) History of the Doctrine of the Holy Spirit.

I mentioned what happens to the sinner prior to regeneration.

I have Hodge's Systematic Theology, both in the three volume set, and on cd.

And in Volume I, he addresses the aspect of God as a trinity. And as a trinity, he addresses how each one works. And in volume I he addresses the Holy Spirit's work in salvation.

And how does the Holy Spirit work in salvation?

1) Conviction

2) Regeneration

3) Faith is given and the exercise of faith and repentance

4) Indwelling after repentance.

The fact is, God does all the work, not man. Jesus said that if he be lifted up, He would draw all men to Him. Jesus also said that He had chose the disciples and not the other way around. And Jesus said that it is God who draws man to Him.

Psa. 64:5 makes this very, very clear:

"Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee,"

And the fact still remains, since Jesus has returned to the Father, the Holy Spirit is here to continue His work.

Try reading John 16:8-10.

So once again, where did your "free will", and "choosing to be born again" come into play?

Fact is...it didn't!

God Bless

Till all are one.
The truth is, all won't be one. All will not make it to heaven. Broad is the way that leads to destruction and many find it. Only a few are willing to come God's way.

You are trying to make out that God IS a respecter of persons, and some He likes and so saves them - but some He does not like, and will not save them.

Sorry, that is not the God we serve. He is NO respecter of persons. He will NOT favor one over another. The truth is, if ANY seek Him with faith believing, He will not turn them away. He is not willing that ANY should perish - yet the same book tells us that the majority perish.

What is your explanation why the majority perish - take the broad way? Is it because God does not like them?
 
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iamlamad

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Good Day, Iamlamad

You have there a baseless assertion, that you have yet to prove. So any conclusions drawn are useless.

All Men are not saved because God in the use of his freedom is under no obligation to save them.

I will Mercy.. (verb) who I will (to) Mercy (verb to the highest degree of intent of action)


Do you have any intent of dealing with Scriptural texts?

Eze 36:26 I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh, and I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

Who/ what is the cause of our walking?

In Him,

Bill
Sorry, but God desires ALL get a new heart - yet, all don't. It is plain then by your theory, God simply does not like the majority of people so sends them to hell. If He has EVERYTHING to do with some being saved, and the rest NOT - then God IS a respector of persons, and those God does not like have NO CHANCE to get in. Is this really the God you serve?

You can't just cherry pick the scriptures that fit your theory and ignore the rest. My bible tells me that God is not willing that ANY should perish - yet most do. In other words, they are going AGAINST God's will.
 
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iamlamad

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I will go a step farther. Once someone through his or her will becomes born again, the will is STILL in play. God's choice for the one just born again is to begin surrendering to HIS will for their life. In other words, to die to self. It is a daily battle. So many believers never leave the infancy stage: they stay baby Christians - just as the Corinthian believers did.

We have to use our WILL when we are born again. We have to say NO to sin - and that is our will. Again, some people just won't say no to their pet sins. Their will is, "I won't" or "I can't." the truth is, the moment the Holy Spirit recreated our human spirit, we all had the capability to say NO to sin. Sadly, we still sin when we are set free from sin.
 
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BBAS 64

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Sorry, but God desires ALL get a new heart - yet, all don't. It is plain then by your theory, God simply does not like the majority of people so sends them to hell. If He has EVERYTHING to do with some being saved, and the rest NOT - then God IS a respector of persons, and those God does not like have NO CHANCE to get in. Is this really the God you serve?

You can't just cherry pick the scriptures that fit your theory and ignore the rest. My bible tells me that God is not willing that ANY should perish - yet most do. In other words, they are going AGAINST God's will.

Good Day, Iamlamad

Sorry but this just seems like your pattern...

Yet another baseless assertion "sorry, but God desires ALL get a new heart"

God said he gives them a new heart and that results in certain effects.

Prove it from scripture.

In Him,

Bill
 
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I will go a step farther. Once someone through his or her will becomes born again, the will is STILL in play. God's choice for the one just born again is to begin surrendering to HIS will for their life. In other words, to die to self. It is a daily battle. So many believers never leave the infancy stage: they stay baby Christians - just as the Corinthian believers did.

We have to use our WILL when we are born again. We have to say NO to sin - and that is our will. Again, some people just won't say no to their pet sins. Their will is, "I won't" or "I can't." the truth is, the moment the Holy Spirit recreated our human spirit, we all had the capability to say NO to sin. Sadly, we still sin when we are set free from sin.


Good Day, Iamlamad

The will of man has no bearing on his rebirth, no matter how many times you repeat the assertion it is still baseless.... born by the will of God, not man

Jn 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

The will is a matter of the heart... new heart... new will ...new desires... new creature made by the work of the creator in new birth from above.

In Him,

Bill
 
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DeaconDean

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The truth is, all won't be one. All will not make it to heaven. Broad is the way that leads to destruction and many find it. Only a few are willing to come God's way.

You are once again, funny.

You don't understand anything.

When I write "Till all are one", IT IS NEVER USED IN THE SENSE OF UNIVERSAL SALVATION OF EVERY MAN, WOMAN, and CHILD.

For your information, there is coming a day when there will be no denominations. No RCC, No Eastern Orthodox, No Presbyterian, No Baptists, No Charasmatics.

There is coming a day when no matter what denomination your belong to, as a "Christian", we will "all be one".

Just some FYI friend.

You are trying to make out that God IS a respecter of persons, and some He likes and so saves them - but some He does not like, and will not save them.

No, actually, that is what scripture says. (cf. Mal. 3:1; Rom. 9:10-13)

Sorry, that is not the God we serve. He is NO respecter of persons. He will NOT favor one over another. The truth is, if ANY seek Him with faith believing, He will not turn them away. He is not willing that ANY should perish - yet the same book tells us that the majority perish.

Not once in this thread have I said God was a respecter of persons. I challenge you to produce here, right now, any post where I said that.

Another thing you have failed to realize is what "kind" of faith do you have before regeneration? I have faith that if I put my key in my trucks ignition, that new battery I bought two months ago will start it. But will that same "kind" of faith save? No, but according to you, it will.

In the scripture we read:

"And they brought him unto him: and when he saw him, straightway the spirit tare him; and he fell on the ground, and wallowed foaming. And he asked his father, How long is it ago since this came unto him? And he said, Of a child. And ofttimes it hath cast him into the fire, and into the waters, to destroy him: but if thou canst do any thing, have compassion on us, and help us. Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth. And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief." -Mk. 9:20-24 (KJV)

Here is a man that heard of this "Jesus of Nazareth", heard of the "miracles", "healing", etc. Brought his son to this "Jesus of Nazareth". So, it is obvious that this man had some "kind" of faith. But was it a soul saving faith? No, we know this because of what is recorded:

"Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief." Here is a man who believed, but yet unbelieved. Had some faith, but not saving faith.

John Gill writes:

"Lord, I believe, help thou mine unbelief;
not forward, but out of the way: he found in himself some small degree of faith in the power of Christ, but it was mixed with much unbelief, through the greatness of the child's disorder; and therefore desires it might be removed from him, and he might be helped against it: he saw it was not in his own power to believe; nor had he strength of himself to oppose his unbelief; but that both faith must be given him, and power against unbelief."

Source

Here I also cite:

"Faith is a topic that is probably the most confused topic in all of Christianity and since Satan is the author of confusion, the mess must be of him.

Most people think that faith is a synonym for believe so they think that they have to believe something is so and it will be so. Others link faith with determination and if they are determined enough that they will develop faith and then they can have what they are determined for. One Bible teacher classes such people as "white-knuckled Christians". They clench their fists in a strong desire to believe something is so and then they can have what they want. People even tell others that they are not healed because they don't have enough faith, or their prayers are not answered because they don't have enough faith. A Christian telling another Christian that they are not healed because they don't have enough faith is an awful thing to say. Joni Erickson had people write her telling her that she was not healed because of her lack of faith. Such letters hurt her very much. We aren't into the power of positive thinking, but what we are into is much better.

Some people use the illustration of having faith that a chair will support your weight allows you to confidently sit in it. Well what happens to your "faith" when the chair breaks? As we will see, sitting in a chair and riding in an airplane are not acts of faith, but rather acting upon our experiences in the world. As Christians we should never use the word faith for a worldly based event. We should say that we have confidence that the chair will support us based upon our prior experience, we have confidence that the airplane will safely get us to our destination; we have confidence that John will come to the meeting with the proper papers, etc.

So how do we find out what faith is? We should always first go to the Bible to see if It offers us a definition of any term or concept under consideration. In Heb 11:1 we indeed read a Biblical definition of faith: "Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen". This verse tells us that faith is a conviction that we have regarding something that allows us to be able to act on it as if it were assured of happening. But where does such assurance come from? A lot of people have the above scripture memorized but then when you ask the question about where does faith come from, you either get a "I don't really know" or somebody saying that it comes from within with the implication that faith is something we develop ourselves.

Now let us go to the Bible and see if It tells us where faith comes from. Heb 12:2 says "...Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith"

Source

So, in one way man is born with a "kind" of faith. But is it the "kind" of faith God requires? No, scripture, specifically Heb. 12:2 says "saving faith" comes from God, specifically Jesus.

You are wrong.

What did Jesus say to the Pharisees?

"ye will not come to me, that ye might have life." -Jn. 5:40 (KJV)

Fact is, no matter what you say, unless the Holy Spirit draws you to Him, you even if you were willing, would not come. PERIOD! (cf. also Jn. 6:65)

You have been proven wrong in the above post.

What is your explanation why the majority perish - take the broad way? Is it because God does not like them?

I'm not God, it is not my duty to why, or for what reason people perish. I do know from scripture that there are even some people who think they are saved, have done good works, etc, but on judgement day, Jesus will say to them "Depart from me, I never knew you."

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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It might be instructive if we were to discuss the false presupposition that being born again (i.e., being regenerated) and being indwelled by the Holy Ghost are the same.

That's kinda "off topic".

What I was responding to was the assertion:

NO ONE is going to heaven to approach God unless they CHOOSE to be born again.

Saving faith, comes from God. (cf. Heb. 12:2)

While all people have a "kind" of faith, nobody has "saving faith" unless God gives it.

And, saving faith only comes after the point of "regeneration".

"No man putteth a piece of a new garment upon an old; if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old. And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish. But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved." -Lk. 5:36-38 (KJV)

God would not give us saving faith before being regenerated. And, if God leds the Holy Spirit to convict us of our sins, regenerates us, gives the faith to believe, do you honestly think that after all that, God's work in that individuals life would come to naught?

In everything a Christian does, its all a work of God. There is no "I chose to be born again".

After being convicted, and regenerated, I couldn't help but be born again.

That is the number one reason why I could never hold to any form of Arminianism. It is nothing but an "I" theology.

"I chose to accept."

"I chose to believe."

I chose to be born again"

"I, I, I"!

"I" rob God of His due glory!

Arminian theology is nothing but an "I" theology!

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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msortwell

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That's kinda "off topic".

What I was responding to was the assertion:



Saving faith, comes from God. (cf. Heb. 12:2)

While all people have a "kind" of faith, nobody has "saving faith" unless God gives it.

And, saving faith only comes after the point of "regeneration".

"No man putteth a piece of a new garment upon an old; if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old. And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish. But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved." -Lk. 5:36-38 (KJV)

God would not give us saving faith before being regenerated. And, if God leds the Holy Spirit to convict us of our sins, regenerates us, gives the faith to believe, do you honestly think that after all that, God's work in that individuals life would come to naught?

In everything a Christian does, its all a work of God. There is no "I chose to be born again".

After being convicted, and regenerated, I couldn't help but be born again.

That is the number one reason why I could never hold to any form of Arminianism. It is nothing but an "I" theology.

"I chose to accept."

"I chose to believe."

I chose to be born again"

"I, I, I"!

"I" rob God of His due glory!

Arminian theology is nothing but an "I" theology!

God Bless

Till all are one.

Not off topic at all. Too often brothers, rightly understanding the sealing with the Spirit (the Spirit dwelling within) is a result of saving faith, wrongly infer (based upon the unsubstantiated presupposition that regeneration equates to indwelling) that regeneration is the result of saving faith. What the are then blinded to is that saving faith is the necessary result on sovereign, monergistic, regeneration. The spiritually dead, God and gospel hating, heart of stone, is sovereignly replaced with a spiritually alive, God loving, gospel believing, heart if flesh which. The first heart willingly rejects the gospel. The second heart willingly accepts the gospel.
 
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iamlamad

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Good Day, Iamlamad

Sorry but this just seems like your pattern...

Yet another baseless assertion "sorry, but God desires ALL get a new heart"

God said he gives them a new heart and that results in certain effects.

Prove it from scripture.

In Him,

Bill
I am quite sure you know the scriptures!

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Please explain, since it is God's desire or will that all should come to repentance, and God has EVERYTHING to do with it, WHY all DON'T come to repentance?

It seems very clear: God does not LIKE some people, so don't save them.
If your theory is right, then it can be for no other reason. God IS a respecter of persons. And this verse is a lie:

Romans 2:11
For there is no respect of persons with God.
 
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BBAS 64

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I am quite sure you know the scriptures!

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Please explain, since it is God's desire or will that all should come to repentance, and God has EVERYTHING to do with it, WHY all DON'T come to repentance?

It seems very clear: God does not LIKE some people, so don't save them.
If your theory is right, then it can be for no other reason. God IS a respecter of persons. And this verse is a lie:

Romans 2:11
For there is no respect of persons with God.


Good day, Iamamad

The us ward, and any in verse 9 are pronouns, and can not in the context refer to "every single person" with out distinction.


2 Pe 1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:

**Remember this is written to Believers


2Pe 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

* believers- beloved,YE

2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

*Un regenerate man

2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

*Unregenerate Man's Charge
2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

* Unbelivers rewards for thier ungodly- ness
2Pe 3:8 But,
beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

*Believers
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

* Believers – Charge of the ungodly in verse #4 debuffed


2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


*Reward for Believers

So the context is clear there is no way to escape the reality of these pronouns.

In Him,

Bill
 
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iamlamad

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Good day, Iamamad

The us ward, and any in verse 9 are pronouns, and can not in the context refer to "every single person" with out distinction.


2 Pe 1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:

**Remember this is written to Believers


2Pe 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

* believers- beloved,YE

2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

*Un regenerate man

2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

*Unregenerate Man's Charge
2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

* Unbelivers rewards for thier ungodly- ness
2Pe 3:8 But,
beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

*Believers
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

* Believers – Charge of the ungodly in verse #4 debuffed


2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


*Reward for Believers

So the context is clear there is no way to escape the reality of these pronouns.

In Him,

Bill
You got me on this one: "Any" is translated in the KJV:

certain (104x), some (73x), any man (55x), any (37x), one (34x), man (34x), anything (24x), a (9x), certain man (7x), something (6x), somewhat (6x), ought (5x), some man (4x), certain thing (2x), nothing (with G3756) (2x), divers (2x), he (2x), thing (1x), another (2x), not translated (17x), miscellaneous (22x).

a certain, a certain one
some, some time, a while

HOWEVER: I just copied that phrase from every translation in BibleHub:

not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

He does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants everyone to repent.

not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

not wanting anyone to perish but everyone to come to repentance.

not willing for any to perish, but all to come to repentance.
not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
not willing that any should perish, but that all should return to penance.
not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
no one should perish but that all should come to repentance.
not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
not counselling any to be lost but all to pass on to reformation,

It seems every translator believes that "any" is the intent of the Author.
Therefore I believe God is telling us something: He, God, is not willing that ANYONE end up in hell. After all, He sent Jesus to take away the sins of the whole world - not just those that make it in!

Then there is that broad road:

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Notice that MANY take the road to destruction. Does God not love these? Does God not WANT them in heaven with Him? Did He send His only Son ONLY for those whose names are written in the book?
I don't think so. It seems MANY don't think so: that is why most churches today ignore John Calvin's doctrine as heresy.
 
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You got me on this one: "Any" is translated in the KJV:

certain (104x), some (73x), any man (55x), any (37x), one (34x), man (34x), anything (24x), a (9x), certain man (7x), something (6x), somewhat (6x), ought (5x), some man (4x), certain thing (2x), nothing (with G3756) (2x), divers (2x), he (2x), thing (1x), another (2x), not translated (17x), miscellaneous (22x).

a certain, a certain one
some, some time, a while

HOWEVER: I just copied that phrase from every translation in BibleHub:

not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

He does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants everyone to repent.

not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

not wanting anyone to perish but everyone to come to repentance.

not willing for any to perish, but all to come to repentance.
not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
not willing that any should perish, but that all should return to penance.
not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
no one should perish but that all should come to repentance.
not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
not counselling any to be lost but all to pass on to reformation,

It seems every translator believes that "any" is the intent of the Author.
Therefore I believe God is telling us something: He, God, is not willing that ANYONE end up in hell. After all, He sent Jesus to take away the sins of the whole world - not just those that make it in!

Then there is that broad road:

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Notice that MANY take the road to destruction. Does God not love these? Does God not WANT them in heaven with Him? Did He send His only Son ONLY for those whose names are written in the book?
I don't think so. It seems MANY don't think so: that is why most churches today ignore John Calvin's doctrine as heresy.

Good Day, Iamlamad

I do not have issue with the translation of any here, the problem with reading into the text ANYONE or EVERYONE is that the any here in the text is a "pronoun" so you have to show from the text some representative noun to attribute the "any" to grammatically, that means every single person.

That does not exist in the text of 2 Peter 3 , there are 2 groups of people in the argument Peter is making, the believers and the unbelievers.

YLT

the Lord is not slow in regard to the promise, as certain count slowness, but is long-suffering to us, not counselling any to be lost but all to pass on to reformation,

The pronoun Us and Any and all (pronouns) refer to the same group... any of the us which are believers.

Peter is saying here the coming of the Lord (the promise vs 4) which is being mocked here will close out the reality of redemptive history. God is ensuring that his plan of redemption is complete for all the believers to be redeemed.

As to the revival of Calvinism at least in America.

The old truth that Calvin preached, that Augustine preached, that Paul preached, is the truth that I must preach to-day, or else be false to my conscience and my God. I cannot shape the truth; I know of no such thing as paring off the rough edges of a doctrine. John Knox's gospel is my gospel. That which thundered through Scotland must thunder through England again."— C. H. Spurgeon

Now thunders across America... Thanks to faithful men like you Mr. Spurgeon.



Evangelicals Find Themselves in the Midst of a Calvinist Revival



In Him,

Bill
 
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msortwell

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Good Day, Iamlamad

I do not have issue with the translation of any here, the problem with reading into the text ANYONE or EVERYONE is that the any here in the text is a "pronoun" so you have to show from the text some representative noun to attribute the "any" to grammatically, that means every single person.

That does not exist in the text of 2 Peter 3 , there are 2 groups of people in the argument Peter is making, the believers and the unbelievers.

YLT

the Lord is not slow in regard to the promise, as certain count slowness, but is long-suffering to us, not counselling any to be lost but all to pass on to reformation,

The pronoun Us and Any and all (pronouns) refer to the same group... any of the us which are believers.

Peter is saying here the coming of the Lord (the promise vs 4) which is being mocked here will close out the reality of redemptive history. God is ensuring that his plan of redemption is complete for all the believers to be redeemed.

As to the revival of Calvinism at least in America.

The old truth that Calvin preached, that Augustine preached, that Paul preached, is the truth that I must preach to-day, or else be false to my conscience and my God. I cannot shape the truth; I know of no such thing as paring off the rough edges of a doctrine. John Knox's gospel is my gospel. That which thundered through Scotland must thunder through England again."— C. H. Spurgeon

Now thunders across America... Thanks to faithful men like you Mr. Spurgeon.



Evangelicals Find Themselves in the Midst of a Calvinist Revival



In Him,

Bill

You and I hold essentially the same understanding of the meaniing of the text under condsigeration. I am, howerver not 100% sure that any and all MUST necessarily refer back to the "us" of Us-ward. I am confident that it does. Otherwise it would be inconsistent with theparticular atonement taught in the balance of Scripture.

The real difficulty I have is when others want to declare this to be THE definitive text on unlimited/universal atonement.

If the rest of Scripture taught universal/unlimited atonement (it does not), it MAY be possible to interpret 2Peter 3:9 with that view - maybe.

But, since the balance of Scripture teaches sovereign unconditional election, and monergistic regeneration, 2 Peter 3:9 can only be understood as BBAS has explained it.

So whatever 2 Peter 3:9 is, it is most definitely NOT an inescapable proof text for universal/unlimited atonement or autonomous free will.
 
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iamlamad

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Good Day, Iamlamad

I do not have issue with the translation of any here, the problem with reading into the text ANYONE or EVERYONE is that the any here in the text is a "pronoun" so you have to show from the text some representative noun to attribute the "any" to grammatically, that means every single person.

That does not exist in the text of 2 Peter 3 , there are 2 groups of people in the argument Peter is making, the believers and the unbelievers.

YLT

the Lord is not slow in regard to the promise, as certain count slowness, but is long-suffering to us, not counselling any to be lost but all to pass on to reformation,

The pronoun Us and Any and all (pronouns) refer to the same group... any of the us which are believers.

Peter is saying here the coming of the Lord (the promise vs 4) which is being mocked here will close out the reality of redemptive history. God is ensuring that his plan of redemption is complete for all the believers to be redeemed.

As to the revival of Calvinism at least in America.

The old truth that Calvin preached, that Augustine preached, that Paul preached, is the truth that I must preach to-day, or else be false to my conscience and my God. I cannot shape the truth; I know of no such thing as paring off the rough edges of a doctrine. John Knox's gospel is my gospel. That which thundered through Scotland must thunder through England again."— C. H. Spurgeon

Now thunders across America... Thanks to faithful men like you Mr. Spurgeon.

Evangelicals Find Themselves in the Midst of a Calvinist Revival

In Him,
Bill

I don't think the bible agrees with ANY of Calvin's 5 points.
You are free to believe any or all of his TULIP points if you wish.

I think you are stretching to make "any" a pronoun that must refer back to something else. It is not the way "any" is used.

"I hope to catch a trout, but I just want a bite from ANY fish."

Does any have to refer back to any trout? I don't think that is the way it is used.

So you are confessing your belief that God does not like certain people and don't want them in heaven - so he won't draw them and certain won't save them. And add to that: Jesus only died for certain people - not for all.

Sorry, I just don't buy it. I think Jesus blood was for the entire human race. I think God wants every last human being to be saved - but at the same time knows that all won't be: that the vast majority will take the broad road to destruction.

I suspect we will find, upon entering heaven, that every believer's name has been written since the foundation of the world was laid. But that was God knowing, not God predestining.
 
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