THE ABSURDITY OF FREE WILL !!

[John tower]

John Tower

 

[Anto9us]

Deu 30:19

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

 

[John tower]

Deu 30:19

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

John 15(16): YOU HAVE NOT CHOSEN ME but I have chosen you : Christ speaking .

 

[StevenMerten]

God did not try to tempt Adam (mankind) by giving Adam the power of choice. The only way we can love God is through the power of free will choice. With the option to choose between obedience or disobedience to God's will, man now has the capability to love God. God gave Adam the tremendous opportunity to offer love, from his heart, to God. Upon man receiving free will toward the command of God, now, not only does God love man, but man can fulfill his purpose in life and love God in return.

1 John 5:3
For the love of God is this, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome,

John 14:15
If you love me, you will keep my commandments.​

If there is a way to bring love for God into existence without free will, then why did our loving God allow free will? Murder, the holocaust, abortion, all atrocities, death and damnation all flow out from man's free will. God initiated man's free will and God can end man's free will at any time. If there is a way to love God without putting man in danger of damnation, why did our loving God put man in danger of damnation by allowing him free will?

God cannot force love for God into existence through His Immense Power. Love, by its very nature, must be freely given from one being to another. Love for God emanates through the power of free willed human choices to obey God. The only thing in the universe worth allowing hatred, sin and damnation for, is Love! God allows human free willed hatred in order to make human free willed love for God possible.

Free from the will of God, obedience to the will of God, is love for God. The Ten Commandments are God's instructions on how love for God is accomplished. The reason God does not force men to act as He commands is so that man can love God through choosing to do as God commands. Free will toward the commandments of God gives us the tremendous opportunity to love God.

Deuteronomy 11:1
Love the LORD, your God, therefore, and always heed his charge: his statutes, decrees and commandments."

Romans 13:10
Love never wrongs the neighbor, hence love is the fulfillment of the law.

John 14:23
Jesus answered and said to him, "Whoever loves me will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our dwelling with him.Whoever does not love me does not keep my words; yet the word you hear is not mine but that of the Father who sent me.

John 15:9
"As the Father has loved me, so I have loved you. Live on in my love. You will live in my love if you keep my commandments, even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and live in his love. All this I tell you that my joy may be yours and your joy may be complete. This is my commandment: love one another as I have loved you. There is no greater love than this: to lay down one's life for one's friends. You are my friends if you do what I command you."

1 John 2:5
But whoever keeps his word, truly has the love of God been made perfect in him. The way we can be sure we are in union with him is for the man who claims to abide in him to conduct himself just as he did.

2 John 1:5
But now, my Lady, I would make this request of you (not as if I were writing you some new commandment; rather, it is a commandment we have had from the start): let us love one another. This love involves our walking according to the commandments, and as you have heard from the beginning, the commandment is the way in which you should walk.

1 John 3:23
His commandment is this: we are to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and are to love one another as he commanded us.

Deuteronomy 11:22
"For if you are careful to observe all these commandments I enjoin on you, loving the LORD, your God, and following his ways exactly, and holding fast to him, . . . . "

John 15:22
"If I had not come to them and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin; now, however, their sin cannot be excused. To hate me is to hate my Father. Had I not performed such works among them as no one has ever done before, they would not be guilty of sin; but as it is, they have seen, and they go on hating me and my Father."

Luke 10:25
On one occasion a lawyer stood up to pose him this problem: "Teacher, what must I do to inherit everlasting life?" Jesus answered him: "What is written in the law? How do you read it?" He replied:
"You shall love the Lord your God
with all your heart,
with all your soul,
with all your strength,
and with all your mind;
and your neighbor as yourself."
Jesus said, "You have answered correctly. Do this and you shall live."

Sirach 28:7
Think of the commandments, hate not your neighbor;

Deuteronomy 5:6
'I, the LORD, am your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. You shall not have other gods besides me. You shall not carve idols for yourselves in the shape of anything in the sky above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth; you shall not bow down before them or worship them. For I, the LORD, your God, am a jealous God, inflicting punishments for their fathers' wickedness on the children of those who hate me, down to the third and fourth generation but bestowing mercy, down to the thousandth generation, on the children of those who love me and keep my commandments.

Matthew 19:16
"Teacher, what good must I do to possess everlasting life?" He answered, "Why do you question me about what is good? There is One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." "Which ones?" he asked. Jesus replied "You shall not kill"; 'You shall not commit adultery'; 'You shall not steal'; 'You shall not bear false witness'; 'Honor your father and mother'; and 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"

Quoted from: Choices of the Heart​

 

[Francis Drake]

John 15(16): YOU HAVE NOT CHOSEN ME but I have chosen you : Christ speaking .

These verses are of no use in your argument. You are taking them completely out of context and misapplying them elsewhere.

John15 was spoken directly to the disciples at the last supper, and them only.
He was not talking about calling unbelievers to salvation, but calling Godfearing Jews into service as his disciples and apostles.

The gospels show Jesus sought them out to follow him. That includes the choice of Judas, knowing that Judas was the odd one out and would eventually choose to betray him.

Freewill still applies in John15.

 

[DeaconDean]

Matt15 was spoken directly to the disciples at the last supper, and them only.
He was not talking about calling unbelievers to salvation, but calling Godfearing Jews into service as his disciples and apostles.

See, I have a problem with "blanket" statements like that.

I remember reading somewhere in scripture that "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"

If we take "spoken directly to the disciples...and them only" as the standard, then absolutely nothing in the Old Testament should ever be taught in any church.

Why? Because the OT scriptures was addressed to the Hebrews and them only!

And, if you want to go so far as "spoken directly to...and them only." We have no recourse than to throw out the entire NT as well. Why?

To whom was Paul's epistle to the Romans addressed? Is there any of that audience alive today? No?

I wish I could count on my fingers and toes the times some well intending group has told me that the promise of the coming "Comforter" in Jn. 16, does not apply to Gentiles since Jesus was addressing "the disciples...and them only".

I am sorry, but I simply cannot, and will not accept the theory that Jesus was addressed "the disciples...and them only". As an axiom.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Francis Drake]

See, I have a problem with "blanket" statements like that.

You are the one who has issued a "blanket statement" by insisting that all verses have equal application to all believers, even when the context specifies who is being addressed.

I remember reading somewhere in scripture that "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"

Absolutely agree.

If we take "spoken directly to the disciples...and them only" as the standard, then absolutely nothing in the Old Testament should ever be taught in any church.

Absolute nonsense. I never said that, so please don't put words in my mouth.

Why? Because the OT scriptures was addressed to the Hebrews and them only!

Silly straw man argument with no connection to what I said.

And, if you want to go so far as "spoken directly to...and them only." We have no recourse than to throw out the entire NT as well. Why?

Silly, did you read anything I said?

To whom was Paul's epistle to the Romans addressed? Is there any of that audience alive today? No?

Try addressing what I said, rather than introducing your own points and then heroically shooting them down in flames.

I wish I could count on my fingers and toes the times some well intending group has told me that the promise of the coming "Comforter" in Jn. 16, does not apply to Gentiles since Jesus was addressing "the disciples...and them only".

Another heroic straw man argument. Pray show me where I said anything remotely like this.

I am sorry, but I simply cannot, and will not accept the theory that Jesus was addressed "the disciples...and them only". As an axiom.

Apart from empty waffle and straw man arguments, you have presented absolutely nothing that refutes my post. On the other hand, you have exposed yourself as not understanding the significance of scriptural context.
You have a serious problem here because your argument produces laughable results.

Acts16v9During the night Paul had a vision of a man of Macedonia standing and begging him, “Come over to Macedonia and help us.” 10After Paul had seen the vision, we got ready at once to leave for Macedonia, concluding that God had called us to preach the gospel to them.

By your direct argument, every Christian should go to Macedonia with the gospel!

Jonah1v1The word of the Lord came to Jonah son of Amittai: 2“Go to the great city of Nineveh and preach against it, because its wickedness has come up before me.”

So have you been to Nineveh, and if not why not because scripture surely commands that of you. Or are you like Jonah running the other way? I suggest you watch out for the big fish. lol

Was the word to marry Mary given to Joseph alone, or to all Christian men.
Was the word that she would give birth to the Messiah given to Mary, or all Christian women?
Etc etc.

This is being no more silly than your post. You and I know that we have to check the context to understand the true meaning of a scripture.

The 12 were called to a specific purpose whilst Jesus walked his ministry, but even then there were differences between them. (Ignoring the extreme difference that Judas presented).

John21v20Having turned, Peter sees the disciple whom Jesus loved following, the one who also had reclined on His bosom at the supper and said, “Lord, who is it who is betraying You?” 21Therefore having seen him, Peter says to Jesus, “Lord, and what about this man?”

22Jesus says to him, “If I desire him to remain until I come, what is it to you? You follow Me!”

Like Peter, as we grow daily in our salvation, we each need to follow the calling that the Lord reveals to us individually. Only a fool would chase someone else's calling.

 

[DeaconDean]

You are the one who has issued a "blanket statement" by insisting that all verses have equal application to all believers, even when the context specifies who is being addressed.

Absolutely agree.

Absolute nonsense. I never said that, so please don't put words in my mouth.

Silly straw man argument with no connection to what I said.

Silly, did you read anything I said?

Try addressing what I said, rather than introducing your own points and then heroically shooting them down in flames.

Another heroic straw man argument. Pray show me where I said anything remotely like this.

Apart from empty waffle and straw man arguments, you have presented absolutely nothing that refutes my post. On the other hand, you have exposed yourself as not understanding the significance of scriptural context.
You have a serious problem here because your argument produces laughable results.

Acts16v9During the night Paul had a vision of a man of Macedonia standing and begging him, “Come over to Macedonia and help us.” 10After Paul had seen the vision, we got ready at once to leave for Macedonia, concluding that God had called us to preach the gospel to them.

By your direct argument, every Christian should go to Macedonia with the gospel!

Jonah1v1The word of the Lord came to Jonah son of Amittai: 2“Go to the great city of Nineveh and preach against it, because its wickedness has come up before me.”

So have you been to Nineveh, and if not why not because scripture surely commands that of you. Or are you like Jonah running the other way? I suggest you watch out for the big fish. lol

Was the word to marry Mary given to Joseph alone, or to all Christian men.
Was the word that she would give birth to the Messiah given to Mary, or all Christian women?
Etc etc.

This is being no more silly than your post. You and I know that we have to check the context to understand the true meaning of a scripture.

The 12 were called to a specific purpose whilst Jesus walked his ministry, but even then there were differences between them. (Ignoring the extreme difference that Judas presented).

John21v20Having turned, Peter sees the disciple whom Jesus loved following, the one who also had reclined on His bosom at the supper and said, “Lord, who is it who is betraying You?” 21Therefore having seen him, Peter says to Jesus, “Lord, and what about this man?”

22Jesus says to him, “If I desire him to remain until I come, what is it to you? You follow Me!”

Like Peter, as we grow daily in our salvation, we each need to follow the calling that the Lord reveals to us individually. Only a fool would chase someone else's calling.

Excuse me, who was it that said, and I quote:

spoken directly to the disciples...and them only.

And besides that, even you misquote context:

Matt15 was spoken directly to the disciples at the last supper, and them only.

Matthew 15 has absolutely nothing to do with the last supper!

And again, from context, you stated very plainly:

spoken directly to the disciples...and them only.

Is a "blanket statement, period.

If we can only take verses spoken by Jesus, or the Prophets for that matter, and apply "spoken directly to...and them only", we have very, very little of the scriptures that would apply to us today.

And whether you accept it or not, the whole of the Old Testament was written to and for, the Hebrews/Jews.

Pray show me where I said anything remotely like this.

"spoken directly to the disciples...and them only"

By your direct argument, every Christian should go to Macedonia with the gospel!

That's funny.

On the other hand, you have exposed yourself as not understanding the significance of scriptural context.
You have a serious problem here because your argument produces laughable results.

In the first place, it is you who are now placing words in my mouth. I use your words:

"spoken directly to...and them only"

If I use your words, then since it was Macedonia addressing Paul, that "context" only applies to Paul and Macedonians since:

"spoken directly to...and them only"

Your words, not mine.

Again, lets use your words:

"spoken directly to the Romans...and them only": Discard the book of Romans.

"spoken directly to the Corinthians...and them only"; Discard both 1&2 Corinthians.

Etcetera and so on.

Blanket statements: "spoken directly to (insert subject) and them only".

Your words, not mine.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

Francis Drake,

I would like to hear you definition of what "Free Will" is.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Billy Evmur]

Deu 30:19

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

So they either do God's will or they die...you call that freewill? If they had freewill they would say "Ok God, we will NOT obey Thee O Lord, but we refuse to die...."

 

[Billy Evmur]

God did not try to tempt Adam (mankind) by giving Adam the power of choice. The only way we can love God is through the power of free will choice. With the option to choose between obedience or disobedience to God's will, man now has the capability to love God. God gave Adam the tremendous opportunity to offer love, from his heart, to God. Upon man receiving free will toward the command of God, now, not only does God love man, but man can fulfill his purpose in life and love God in return.

1 John 5:3
For the love of God is this, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome,

John 14:15
If you love me, you will keep my commandments.​

If there is a way to bring love for God into existence without free will, then why did our loving God allow free will? Murder, the holocaust, abortion, all atrocities, death and damnation all flow out from man's free will. God initiated man's free will and God can end man's free will at any time. If there is a way to love God without putting man in danger of damnation, why did our loving God put man in danger of damnation by allowing him free will?

God cannot force love for God into existence through His Immense Power. Love, by its very nature, must be freely given from one being to another. Love for God emanates through the power of free willed human choices to obey God. The only thing in the universe worth allowing hatred, sin and damnation for, is Love! God allows human free willed hatred in order to make human free willed love for God possible.

Free from the will of God, obedience to the will of God, is love for God. The Ten Commandments are God's instructions on how love for God is accomplished. The reason God does not force men to act as He commands is so that man can love God through choosing to do as God commands. Free will toward the commandments of God gives us the tremendous opportunity to love God.

Deuteronomy 11:1
Love the LORD, your God, therefore, and always heed his charge: his statutes, decrees and commandments."

Romans 13:10
Love never wrongs the neighbor, hence love is the fulfillment of the law.

John 14:23
Jesus answered and said to him, "Whoever loves me will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our dwelling with him.Whoever does not love me does not keep my words; yet the word you hear is not mine but that of the Father who sent me.

John 15:9
"As the Father has loved me, so I have loved you. Live on in my love. You will live in my love if you keep my commandments, even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and live in his love. All this I tell you that my joy may be yours and your joy may be complete. This is my commandment: love one another as I have loved you. There is no greater love than this: to lay down one's life for one's friends. You are my friends if you do what I command you."

1 John 2:5
But whoever keeps his word, truly has the love of God been made perfect in him. The way we can be sure we are in union with him is for the man who claims to abide in him to conduct himself just as he did.

2 John 1:5
But now, my Lady, I would make this request of you (not as if I were writing you some new commandment; rather, it is a commandment we have had from the start): let us love one another. This love involves our walking according to the commandments, and as you have heard from the beginning, the commandment is the way in which you should walk.

1 John 3:23
His commandment is this: we are to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and are to love one another as he commanded us.

Deuteronomy 11:22
"For if you are careful to observe all these commandments I enjoin on you, loving the LORD, your God, and following his ways exactly, and holding fast to him, . . . . "

John 15:22
"If I had not come to them and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin; now, however, their sin cannot be excused. To hate me is to hate my Father. Had I not performed such works among them as no one has ever done before, they would not be guilty of sin; but as it is, they have seen, and they go on hating me and my Father."

Luke 10:25
On one occasion a lawyer stood up to pose him this problem: "Teacher, what must I do to inherit everlasting life?" Jesus answered him: "What is written in the law? How do you read it?" He replied:
"You shall love the Lord your God
with all your heart,
with all your soul,
with all your strength,
and with all your mind;
and your neighbor as yourself."
Jesus said, "You have answered correctly. Do this and you shall live."

Sirach 28:7
Think of the commandments, hate not your neighbor;

Deuteronomy 5:6
'I, the LORD, am your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. You shall not have other gods besides me. You shall not carve idols for yourselves in the shape of anything in the sky above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth; you shall not bow down before them or worship them. For I, the LORD, your God, am a jealous God, inflicting punishments for their fathers' wickedness on the children of those who hate me, down to the third and fourth generation but bestowing mercy, down to the thousandth generation, on the children of those who love me and keep my commandments.

Matthew 19:16
"Teacher, what good must I do to possess everlasting life?" He answered, "Why do you question me about what is good? There is One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." "Which ones?" he asked. Jesus replied "You shall not kill"; 'You shall not commit adultery'; 'You shall not steal'; 'You shall not bear false witness'; 'Honor your father and mother'; and 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"

Quoted from: Choices of the Heart​

Murder, stealing, adultery, holocaust etc comes from freewill?

No they come from wills that are as the bible teaches enslaved by Satan.

 

[StevenMerten]

So they either do God's will or they die...you call that freewill? If they had freewill they would say "Ok God, we will NOT obey Thee O Lord, but we refuse to die...."

Hello Billy,
To obey God is to Love God. We do not have to love God, through obedience perfectly, but only with all our heart, with all our mind, with all our strength and with all our soul. Jesus tells us that He will Judge us according to our conduct, as to who He will bring into heaven through His Blood, and who He will condemn to hell. Jesus is a merciful Judge. However, if you reject God, and turn your heart to apostasy, sin and hatred for God, Jesus has made it clear, He will condemn you to hell upon Judgement Day.

Matthew 13:36
The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. Just as weeds are collected and burned (up) with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will collect out of his kingdom all who cause others to sin and all evildoers. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears ought to hear."​

John 5:27
"The Father has given over to him power to pass judgment because he is Son of Man; no need for you to be surprised at this, for an hour is coming in which all those in their tombs shall hear his voice and come forth. Those who have done right shall rise to live; the evildoers shall rise to be damned."

Matthew 25:31
"And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.'...
...Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.'...

...'Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.' And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Revelation 22:12
"Remember, I am coming soon! I bring with me the reward that will be given to each man as his conduct deserves. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End! Happy are they who wash their robes so as to have free access to the tree of life and enter the city through its gates Outside are the dogs and sorcerers, the fornicators and murderers, the idol-worshipers and all who love falsehood."

Matthew 7:21
"None of those who cry out, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of God but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. When that day comes, many will plead with me, 'Lord, Lord,' have we not prophesied in your name? have we not exorcized demons by its power? Did we not do many miracles in your name as well? Then I will declare to them solemnly, I never knew you. Out of my sight, you evildoers!"

"Anyone who hears my words and puts them into practice is like the wise man who built his house on rock. When the rainy season set in, the torrents came and the winds blew and buffeted his house, It did not collapse; it had been solidly set on rock. Anyone who hears my words but does not put them into practice is like the foolish man who built his house on sandy ground. The rains fell, the torrents came, the winds blew and lashed against his house. It collapsed under all this and was completely ruined."

Romans 2:6 (St. Paul is Speaking)
. . . when he will repay every man for what he has done: eternal life to those who strive for glory, honor, and immortality by patiently doing right; wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness. Yes, affliction and anguish will come upon every man who has done evil, the Jew first then the Greek. But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who has done good, likewise the Jew first, then the Greek.

1 Corinthians 7:19 (St. Paul is speaking.)
Circumcision counts for nothing, and its lack makes no difference either. What matters is keeping God's commandments.​

 

[StevenMerten]

Murder, stealing, adultery, holocaust etc comes from freewill?

No they come from wills that are as the bible teaches enslaved by Satan.

Hello Billy,
God says differently. Jesus and the Father make it clear that we are the ones who choose whether or not we will obey the Commands of God. Satan may tempt us, but it is we who choose whether we will follow Satan or God.

Genesis 2:16
The LORD God gave man this order: "You are free to eat from any of the trees of the garden except the tree of knowledge of good and bad. From that tree you shall not eat; the moment you eat from it you are surely doomed to die."

Deuteronomy 30:19
"I call heaven and earth today to witness against you: I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. Choose life, then, that you and your descendants may live, by loving the LORD, your God, heeding his voice, and holding fast to him."

Matthew 7:12
" . . . treat others the way you would have them treat you: this sums up the law and the prophets. Enter through the narrow gate. The gate that leads to damnation is wide, the road is clear, and many choose to travel it. But how narrow is the gate that leads to life, how rough the road, and how few there are who find it!"

Deuteronomy 30:15 The Choice before Israel.
"Here then, I have today set before you life and prosperity, death and doom. If you obey the commandments of the LORD, your God, which I enjoin on you today, loving him, and walking in his ways, and keeping his commandments, statutes and decrees, you will live and grow numerous, and the LORD, your God, will bless you in the land you are entering to occupy."

Sirach 15:11 Man's Free Will.
Say not: "It was God's doing that I fell away"; for what he hates he does not do. Say not: "It was he who set me astray"; for he has no need of wicked man.Abominable wickedness the LORD hates, he does not let it befall those who fear him. When God, in the beginning, created man, he made him subject to his own free choice. If you choose you can keep the commandments; it is loyalty to do his will. There are set before you fire and water; to whichever you choose, stretch forth your hand. Before man are life and death, whichever he chooses shall be given him.

Amos 5:14
Seek good and not evil, that you may live; Then truly will the LORD, the God of hosts, be with you as you claim!

Deuteronomy 11:26 A Blessing and a Curse.
"I set before you here, this day, a blessing and a curse: a blessing for obeying the commandments of the LORD, your God, which I enjoin on you today; a curse if you do not obey the commandments of the LORD, your God, but turn aside from the way I ordain for you today, to follow other gods, whom you have not known."

2 Kings 18:32
". . . until I come to take you to a land like your own, a land of grain and wine, of bread and orchards, of olives, oil and fruit syrup. Choose life, not death."

NAB HEB 12:14 Penalties of Disobedience.
Strive for peace with all men, and for that holiness without which no one can see the Lord. See to it that no man falls away from the grace of God; that no bitter root springs up through which many may become defiled; that there be among you no fornicator or godless person like Esau, who sold his birthright for a meal. You know that afterward he wanted to inherit his father's blessing, but he was rejected because he had no opportunity to alter his choice, even though he sought the blessing with tears.(ISA 1:19 PRO 18:21)​

 

[Billy Evmur]

Hi ya
Nobody loves God with all their hearts minds and soul...do you? honestly? on these two hang all the law and prophets, that's why salvation can never come from obeying the law...forget it.

Jesus said "if any man hear My words and believe in Him who sent Me shall be saved" Paul said "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved"

All who have trusted Christ for salvation have passed from death to life and are passed over from judgement...that is to say the judgement of condemnation.

 

[Billy Evmur]

Nobody can come to the Son unless the Father draw them...there is no such thing as freewill.

 

[StevenMerten]

Hello Billy,
Do you reject Jesus teaching on the sheep and the goats, as to how it will be on Judgement Day?

Matthew 25:31
"And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.'...
...Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.'...

...'Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.' And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."​

 

[Billy Evmur]

Hello Billy,
Do you reject Jesus teaching on the sheep and the goats, as to how it will be on Judgement Day?

Matthew 25:31
"And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.'...
...Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.'...

...'Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.' And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."​

I understand it differently...you see the sheep as Christians and the goats as non-Christians but a thoughtful reading of it will show that this cannot be so.

Do YOU accept that you do not fulfil the law "thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart and all thy soul and all thy mind"

According to your "gospel" then you cannot be saved.

 

[StevenMerten]

I understand it differently...you see the sheep as Christians and the goats as non-Christians but a thoughtful reading of it will show that this cannot be so.

Do YOU accept that you do not fulfil the law "thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart and all thy soul and all thy mind"

According to your "gospel" then you cannot be saved.

So you are saying that what Jesus is really teaching us that Christians who do not feed and care for the poor are going to heaven and the non-Christians who do feed and care for the poor are going to hell?

 

[Billy Evmur]

I am saying that we are saved from this judgement altogether. We are saved because we are sinners, Jesus only saves sinners. For those that believe, Jesus was judged for us, condemned for us and fulfilled the law for us...He died thus fulfilling on our behalf, the law "the soul that sinneth it shall die"

We are saved because we are sinners, not because we love God...you are not answering my question

I'm answering YOUR questions why are you not answering mine?

 

[StevenMerten]

I am saying that we are saved from this judgement altogether. We are saved because we are sinners, Jesus only saves sinners. For those that believe, Jesus was judged for us, condemned for us and fulfilled the law for us...He died thus fulfilling on our behalf, the law "the soul that sinneth it shall die"
We are saved because we are sinners, not because we love God...you are not answering my question
I'm answering YOUR questions why are you not answering mine?

Hello Billy,
You, me and Jesus, all agree that the only way to heaven is through the Blood of Jesus. Jesus, many times, teaches us that He will Judge us on Judgement Day, according to our conduct. Those who have believed in Jesus, by acting according to His Teachings during life, Jesus says He will bring into heaven through His Blood. You reject Jesus' Words in His Teachings on what we should do to go to heaven. I accept Jesus' Words on what to do to go to heaven. This is where we differ. Is this correct?

Matthew 7:21
"None of those who cry out, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of God but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. When that day comes, many will plead with me, 'Lord, Lord,' have we not prophesied in your name? have we not exorcized demons by its power? Did we not do many miracles in your name as well? Then I will declare to them solemnly, I never knew you. Out of my sight, you evildoers!"

"Anyone who hears my words and puts them into practice is like the wise man who built his house on rock. When the rainy season set in, the torrents came and the winds blew and buffeted his house, It did not collapse; it had been solidly set on rock. Anyone who hears my words but does not put them into practice is like the foolish man who built his house on sandy ground. The rains fell, the torrents came, the winds blew and lashed against his house. It collapsed under all this and was completely ruined."

John 12:44
Jesus proclaimed aloud: "Whoever puts faith in me believes not so much in me as in him who sent me; and whoever looks on me is seeing him who sent me. I have come to the world as its light, to keep anyone who believes in me from remaining in the dark. If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I am not the one to condemn him, for I did not come to condemn the world but to save it. Whoever rejects me and does not accept my words already has his judge, namely, the word I have spoken it is that which will condemn him on the last day. For I have not spoken on my own; no, the Father who sent me has commanded me what to say and how to speak. Since I know that his commandment means eternal life, whatever I say is spoken just as he instructed me."
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