The A & P

[Charlie24]

He surely did, and they are grave warnings. But he is not therefore saying that God will destroy body and soul in hell. I'd suggest that's a big leap.

Certainly, it's not going to be pleasant for these pharisee types to have their pride and arrogant sense of superiority shattered. That's the humiliation which is experienced as 'fire'. I think we've all had those experiences to some extent, being brought down a notch, humbled and knocked off our pedestals as it were.

That's the process that person who's lived a life of stubborn self-righteousness and hypocrisy will have to go through, in order to be reconciled to God, to the truth. That's what the lake of fire is all about, the sinner being delivered from the false notions he clings to stubbornly.

Only when those bad habits and false ways are overcome can the carcass of the old man be left aside in everlasting contempt, and the new humble and grateful man come forth.

Good intentions will not change the outcome of the ungodly.

With none of what you say being found written in scripture, I would say that you have been led astray.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

How so? Historically many Jews converted. And the Roman at the foot of the cross was converted. Ultimately, we're bound for Revelation 15:4, the new song of Moses ad the Lamb:

"Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy; For ALL THE NATIONS WILL COME AND WORSHIP BEFORE YOU, FOR YOUR RIGHTEOUS ACTS HAVE BEEN REVEALED."

Now, this is THE revelation of Revelation. That God's judgments save, and consummate the great covenant promises of the OT (esp. to Abraham and Cyrus), and the mission of Jesus to save the world from its condemnation by the wages of sin.

How is it consistent with these great Biblical pillars of love faith and hope that the many end up doomed to eternal torment?

Well yes they converted and became saved but did not lose their salvation/eternal life after they became saved which was my point.

Do you agree ?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Good intentions will not change the outcome of the ungodly.

With none of what you say being found written in scripture, I would say that you have been led astray.

It was intended as a commentary/ translation on what I wrote in the previous post, which was full of scriptural references. Seeing as you prefer to just pull scripture out of context and assume it means something it doesn't.

Anyway, to be continued...

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Well yes they converted and became saved but did not lose their salvation/eternal life after they became saved which was my point.

Do you agree ?

Yes. Even the apostate will be ultimately redeemed. Because nobody can withstand the power of God and His mighty right arm, which is Salvation, the alpha and omega.

Past my bedtime. Thanks for the discussion and grace bro. Look forward to resuming in due course, God willing.

 

[Saint Steven]

I've heard of it but we're not reading the same one!

Here, this list might help.

Bibles that do NOT contain the word "Hell".

Wesley's New Testament (1755)
Scarlett's N.T. (1798)
The New Testament in Greek and English (Kneeland, 1823)
Young's Literal Translation (1891)
Twentieth Century New Testament (1900)
Rotherham's Emphasized Bible (reprinted, 1902)
Fenton's Holy Bible in Modern English (1903)
Weymouth's New Testament in Modern Speech (1903)
The New Testament, James Moffat, (1917)
Jewish Publication Society Bible Old Testament (1917)
Panin's Numeric English New Testament (1914)
The New Testament, Charles B. Williams, 1937
The People's New Covenant (Overbury, 1925)
Hanson's New Covenant (1884)
Western N.T. (1926)
NT of our Lord and Savior Anointed (Tomanek, 1958)
Concordant Literal NT (1983)
The N.T., A Translation (Clementson, 1938)
Emphatic Diaglott, Greek/English Interlinear (Wilson, 1942)
New American Bible (1970)
Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible (1976)
Tanakh, The Holy Scriptures, Old Testament (1985)
The New Testament, A New Translation (Greber, 1980)
Christian Bible (1991)
World English Bible (in progress)
Orthodox Jewish Brit Chadasha [NT Only]
Original Bible Project (Dr. James Tabor, still in translation)
Zondervan Parallel N.T. in Greek and English (1975)**
Int. NASB-NIV Parallel N.T. in Greek and English (1993)**
A Critical Paraphrase of the N.T. by Vincent T. Roth (1960)
New Testament, Recovery Version, Living Stream Ministry, 1991
New American Bible Revised Edition (NABRE) Roman Catholic
Holy Bible In Its Original Order, Fred R. Coulter, 2007
Etymological N.T. (An Ultra Literal Translation, 2011, Michael Wine)
Aramaic Peshitta New Testament, 2006, Janet M. Magiera
MirrorWord N.T. (Francois du Toit) still in translation
Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ, Electronic Ver. (Tentmaker Ministries)
The Source N.T. (Dr. Ann Nyland), 2004, 2007
Jonathan Mitchell N.T. (Jonathan Mitchell) 2009
Tree of Life Version, Baker Bookhouse, 2016******
The New Testament (David Bentley Hart) Yale University Press, 2017

 

[Saint Steven]

No where in scripture do we have a hint that hell releases its condemned.

Every knee... every tongue... in heaven, on earth, and under the earth (in the realm of the dead)
Anyone missing from that list?

 

[Saint Steven]

Jesus is salvation, just as you said. He is the same Jesus who said, You hypocrites and snakes, how shall you enter the Kingdom of God.

He also said, Narrow is the way to life and few there be that find it.

Are you claiming that God predestined the majority to eternal conscious torment with no hope of escape? And that is the perfect justice of God? What's wrong with this picture?

 

[Der Alte]

And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth. (Jn 11:43)
Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached. (Lk 7:22)
Like shooting fish in barrel with your objections der Alter.
Jesus delights in raising the dead. It's in the mission statement. And those with new life in Christ are filled with gratitude and awe. Now is that not a recipe for repentance?
Next?

The usual argumentative UR nonsense. IIRC Lazarus was a follower of Jesus when he died. Lazarus was not a dead sinner saved in the grave. Where does this say or imply that all of lost mankind in the grave/hell will be saved? It doesn't. And of course there will be a resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous. You should read about it Matthew 25:31-46 and Revelation 20:11-15

 

[Der Alte]

So God is moody and arbitrary now? Not in the Bible I'm reading.

More ridiculous UR nonsense. You would be well served to try to learn something about Greek grammar. Greek is an inflected language the correct meaning of a word is determined by tense, voice, mood, gender and number. That a Greek word is in the indicative, the subjunctive, the optative, or the imperative "moods" has absolutely nothing to do with the emotional mood of the speaker or writer.
I have given you the meaning of the "indicative" and "subjunctive" moods multiple times. If you want to know the meaning of the "optative" and "imperative"moods look them up e.g. here,
William Watson Goodwin, Syntax of the Moods and Tenses of the Greek Verb, chapter 1.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Are you claiming that God predestined the majority to eternal conscious torment with no hope of escape? And that is the perfect justice of God? What's wrong with this picture?

The truth is everyone ever born deserves an eternity without God in hell- the lake of fire along with the devil and his angels.

But God rich in mercy and grace has chosen some to be with Him for all eternity. Man lover sin and hates God. Take a look at the facts below regarding mans natural condition since the fall.

Man by nature is deceitful (Jeremiah 17:9),
Man is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23)
Man loves darkness (John 3:19),
Man does not seek for God (Romans 3:10-12),
Man is ungodly (Romans 5:6),
Man is dead in his sins (Ephesians 2:1),
Man by nature is a child of wrath (Ephesians 2:3),
Man cannot understand spiritual things (1 Corinthians 2:14),
Man is a slave of sin (Romans 6:16-20)
Man is sinful at birth, sinful from the time of conception (Psalms 51:5)
Man is like a filthy rag his garments stained by sin and is unrighteous ( Isaiah 64:6)
Man is hostile towards God and cannot submit to Him or His law ( Romans 8:7)
Man cannot do good and is completely incapable of such an act ( Romans 3:12)
Man is not born with faith so everything is done in sin ( Romans 14:23)
Man has not one single thing that is good in him ( Romans 7:18)
Man is born condemned ( John 3:18)

 

[Saint Steven]

But God rich in mercy and grace has chosen some to be with Him for all eternity.

If God is "rich in mercy and grace" (and I believe he is) he would not predestine the vast majority of those created in his image to spend eternity in torment with no hope of escape. That sounds more like POOR in mercy and grace.

No one deserves the hell described by Damnationists. No one. Those raised in the church seem completely callous to the reality of what they describe as hell. Which amounts to a scare tactic to gain converts to control.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

If God is "rich in mercy and grace" (and I believe he is) he would not predestine the vast majority of those created in his image to spend eternity in torment with no hope of escape. That sounds more like POOR in mercy and grace.

No one deserves the hell described by Damnationists. No one. Those raised in the church seem completely callous to the reality of what they describe as hell. Which amounts to a scare tactic to gain converts to control.

And you are strictly looking at this from your human perspective.

 

[Saint Steven]

And you are strictly looking at this from your human perspective.

On the contrary.
You have correctly identified that God is "rich in mercy and grace", however you then violate your own confession with a belief in hell. These two are not compatible either biblically, or rationally.

Saint Steven said: ↑
If God is "rich in mercy and grace" (and I believe he is) he would not predestine the vast majority of those created in his image to spend eternity in torment with no hope of escape. That sounds more like POOR in mercy and grace.

No one deserves the hell described by Damnationists. No one. Those raised in the church seem completely callous to the reality of what they describe as hell. Which amounts to a scare tactic to gain converts to control.

 

[Saint Steven]

Christ Triumphant, by Thomas Allin
Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin

Preface

Chapter I -- The Question Stated

Chapter II -- The Popular Creed Wholly Untenable

Chapter III -- The Popular Creed Wholly Untenable (continued)

Chapter IV -- What the Church Teaches

Chapter V -- What the Church Teaches (continued)

Chapter VI -- Universalism and Creation

Chapter VII -- What the Old Testament Teaches

Chapter VIII -- What the New Testament Teaches

Chapter IX -- What the New Testament Teaches (continued)

Chapter X -- Summary and Conclusion

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

On the contrary.
You have correctly identified that God is "rich in mercy and grace", however you then violate your own confession with a belief in hell. These two are not compatible either biblically, or rationally.

Saint Steven said: ↑
If God is "rich in mercy and grace" (and I believe he is) he would not predestine the vast majority of those created in his image to spend eternity in torment with no hope of escape. That sounds more like POOR in mercy and grace.

No one deserves the hell described by Damnationists. No one. Those raised in the church seem completely callous to the reality of what they describe as hell. Which amounts to a scare tactic to gain converts to control.

Nowhere does God promise to save every person who has ever lived in fact declares that most are under His Judgment. In your view Gods judgments are temporal and not permanent when in fact the same promises of eternal life that is forever also included His judgment and wrath that are everlasting, never ending such as the eternal fire that is never quenched, where the worm never dies, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth etc..................

You are making Gods word and promises not true by denying all the scriptures which describe eternal torment for the wicked. God has no obligation to save those who hate Him and love their sin.

hope this helps !!!

hope this helps !!!

 

[Saint Steven]

Nowhere does God promise to save every person who has ever lived in fact declares that most are under His Judgment. In your view Gods judgments are temporal and not permanent when in fact the same promises of eternal life that is forever also included His judgment and wrath that are everlasting, never ending such as the eternal fire that is never quenched, where the worm never dies, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth etc..................

You are making Gods word and promises not true by denying all the scriptures which describe eternal torment for the wicked. God has no obligation to save those who hate Him and love their sin.

hope this helps !!!

hope this helps !!!

There is some controversy about the translation of some words from the original in reference to...

aionios, the Greek word translated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in the Bible (eternal hell?)

The doctrine of eternal hell is so shocking that it deserves a careful examination. In this video we discuss the meaning of the word "aionios" by its other appearances in the Bible, not relying on dictionary definitions.

 

[Saint Steven]

God has no obligation to save those who hate Him and love their sin.

Why not?
Does he not require that we love our enemies? But you claim that he will incinerate his enemies? And what of those countless billions that have never so much as heard the name of Jesus? Consigned to eternal torment with no hope of escape?

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Why not?
Does he not require that we love our enemies? But you claim that he will incinerate his enemies? And what of those countless billions that have never so much as heard the name of Jesus? Consigned to eternal torment with no hope of escape?

God NEVER requires unbelievers to love their enemies just believers.

 

[Der Alte]

***

Why not? Does he not require that we love our enemies? But you claim that he will incinerate his enemies? And what of those countless billions that have never so much as heard the name of Jesus? Consigned to eternal torment with no hope of escape?

That concept of God is too small.
God already provided for that were one to actually read the whole Bible instead of only the out-of-context proof texts they might know this.

Psalms 19:1-4
1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.
3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.
4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,
Romans 1:18-26
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Romans 4:15
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Romans 5:13
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
​

 

[Saint Steven]

God NEVER requires unbelievers to love their enemies just believers.

That has nothing to do with what I wrote. Of course I was referring to us loving our enemies. Now with that clarification, please reply to the post. Thanks.

Saint Steven said: ↑
Why not?
Does he not require that we love our enemies? But you claim that he will incinerate his enemies? And what of those countless billions that have never so much as heard the name of Jesus? Consigned to eternal torment with no hope of escape?